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[Wulfram]

The Salarians don't seem like the type to stagnate, really. From the codex

Salarians are known for their observational capability and non-linear thinking. This manifests as an aptitude for research and espionage. They are constantly experimenting and inventing, and it is generally accepted that they always know more than they're letting on.

But it still apparently takes a human to come up with the idea of Carriers.

[Rekkampum]

Wulfram wrote...

The Salarians don't seem like the type to stagnate, really. From the codex

Salarians are known for their observational capability and non-linear thinking. This manifests as an aptitude for research and espionage. They are constantly experimenting and inventing, and it is generally accepted that they always know more than they're letting on.

But it still apparently takes a human to come up with the idea of Carriers.

They barely have a forty year life span so it would seem to make sense that they could develop and invent these things long before humans came along. Alas, "we're special", so I guess they can't.

[darth_lopez]

Wulfram wrote...

The Salarians don't seem like the type to stagnate, really. From the codex

Salarians are known for their observational capability and non-linear thinking. This manifests as an aptitude for research and espionage. They are constantly experimenting and inventing, and it is generally accepted that they always know more than they're letting on.

But it still apparently takes a human to come up with the idea of Carriers.

That's actually a little false, we didn't come up with carriers they already existed in small numbers What we did was make a bunch put them to good use in some way that no one else apparently thought of  just like AirCraft carriers >.> (the thing with us and carriers actually makes me wonder if no one else had oceans like ours <.<)

[Someone With Mass]

I don't think a race is "special" just because it's born with a few certain beneficial traits/traits that are acceptable given the environment, but it can be overdone.

[Therefore_I_Am]

Bogsnot1 wrote...

Lazy writing is unacceptable. Following the age old trope of "humans be speshul coz they be speshul herpyderp" is old, boring, and quite frankly, insulting.

If we were the only race in the galaxy, fair enough, but in a multi-raced adventure like ME, it would be nice for someone else to hold the trump card occasionally.

Turians already hold that card above humans. If the council never interjected, Shepard's story would take place with humanity as a conquered & subordinant species, totally alienated from the council races.

[edit] also, thanks to wrex and garrus, turians and krogans seem to have just as much credibility as humans do in the universe.
Since the mass effect universe is just starting to be told, it's good to see it through a human's perspective first and foremost.

Modifié par Therefore_I_Am, 08 août 2011 - 08:34 .

[Rekkampum]

Someone With Mass wrote...

I don't think a race is "special" just because it's born with a few certain beneficial traits/traits that are acceptable given the environment, but it can be overdone.

Well, that's science fiction. 

[Destroy Raiden_]

I wouldn't play a game or watch a movie where its all aliens that are so far removed from human like behavior that its outright bizarre. I don't mind how BW is making the traditional humans are special in space opera I like it that way and would prefer it that way I don't get the hate for pixel humanity.

[Han Shot First]

Honestly, ME doesn't portray Humanity as all that 'special'. We are unique in our diversity, both biologically and culturally, but all of the other species are pretty unique as well.

That actually was a major flaw with ME2's writing.

The idea that humanity would be the most genetically diverse species in the galaxy is laughable, since humanity as a species isn't genetically diverse at all. About 75,000 years ago a supervolcano eruption in Indonesia almost caused our species to go extinct. As a result everyone alive today is descended from only a few thousand individuals, and many of the animals that share our own planet with us (like chimpanzees) are much more genetically diverse than we are.

[Whatever42]

GreenDragon37 wrote...


And yet we climbed on top of everyone in 40 years?

We had to power to sieze control of the Citadel and no-one tried to stop it?

Also, in Star Wars didn't every race start developing at the same time?

Again, the Reapers wiped out the Turian fleet and Destiny Ascension. Humanity didn't do it. Humanity is only tops for a few years until the Turians rebuild (well, renegade Shepard might have some impact there). But it was the Reapers moved humanity up the ladder, not humanity itself.

[Whatever42]

Han Shot First wrote...

Honestly, ME doesn't portray Humanity as all that 'special'. We are unique in our diversity, both biologically and culturally, but all of the other species are pretty unique as well.

That actually was a major flaw with ME2's writing.

The idea that humanity would be the most genetically diverse species in the galaxy is laughable, since humanity as a species isn't genetically diverse at all. About 75,000 years ago a supervolcano eruption in Indonesia almost caused our species to go extinct. As a result everyone alive today is descended from only a few thousand individuals, and many of the animals that share our own planet with us (like chimpanzees) are much more genetically diverse than we are.

That is true. I do wonder what they mean by diversity, though. If they mean diversity in the genome, we're not very diverse as a species on Earth but these races have had world cultures for hundreds and thousands of years. Earth, meanwhile, is still a planet of independent nation-states with world organizations only existing a couple centuries. This could be a matter of timing, not some sort of specialness. 

Or it could mean that we have more random mutations than other species.

But its basically just a reason for the Reapers to pick on us first, of course. 

[Whatever42]

Wulfram wrote...

The Salarians don't seem like the type to stagnate, really. From the codex

Salarians are known for their observational capability and non-linear thinking. This manifests as an aptitude for research and espionage. They are constantly experimenting and inventing, and it is generally accepted that they always know more than they're letting on.

But it still apparently takes a human to come up with the idea of Carriers.

Psychologically, Salarians don't think in up-front militaristic terms. Why would they invent a carrier? If faced with a military threat, they would respond first through subterfuge, not brute force. Besides, when is the last time they were faced with a serious military threat? The krogan 1000 years ago, where the Turians stepped up and handled the brute force side of things. The Salarians innovated there with the genophage, not carriers. 

[Arppis]

Bogsnot1 wrote...

Lazy writing is unacceptable. Following the age old trope of "humans be speshul coz they be speshul herpyderp" is old, boring, and quite frankly, insulting.

If we were the only race in the galaxy, fair enough, but in a multi-raced adventure like ME, it would be nice for someone else to hold the trump card occasionally.

Agreed. I usualy find it bit annoying when some clearly superior race goes: "Oh, humans are clearly best race around! May I lick your boots?!".

[Arken]

Wulfram wrote...

Arken wrote...
]A major trope indeed. Humans are the only species capable of uniquness. Everyone else has to stick to their own speciallity. It's just annoying as when species like the salarians all follow the same belief. As did the drell until the hanar adopted their race. So do the asari.

Not entirely true actually.  From the codex

Before the rise of siari pantheism, asari religions were as diverse as their political opinions. The strongest survivor of those days is the monotheistic religion worshiping the goddess Athame. Like the asari, the goddess cycles through the triple aspects of maiden, matron, and matriarch.


And the Turians

Turians enjoy absolute freedom of religion and can practice whatever appeals to them so long as it does not impede anyone's ability to perform their duties. There are many practitioners of the asari "siarist" philosophy. Since opening dialog with the human Systems Alliance, some turians have embraced Confucianism and Zen Buddhism.

I actually did overlook that entry. I'm a fan but a lot of what I know based on the experience from the story. Not enough time to read the codex but I did try to read some of it. Ended up taking an hour to just get through the Council races.

I have to admit that you have a point that asari and turians are examples are species that do not fall into the trope of "If it isn't human then it has a mass culture." I still think that at the very least Mass Effect could throw in some cultures within the alien cultures. It is nice to know that turians have variety in philosophy. It makes them seem more real and less like "Dem aliums that likes the militarizies."

[Rekkampum]

Arken wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Arken wrote...
]A major trope indeed. Humans are the only species capable of uniquness. Everyone else has to stick to their own speciallity. It's just annoying as when species like the salarians all follow the same belief. As did the drell until the hanar adopted their race. So do the asari.

Not entirely true actually.  From the codex

Before the rise of siari pantheism, asari religions were as diverse as their political opinions. The strongest survivor of those days is the monotheistic religion worshiping the goddess Athame. Like the asari, the goddess cycles through the triple aspects of maiden, matron, and matriarch.


And the Turians

Turians enjoy absolute freedom of religion and can practice whatever appeals to them so long as it does not impede anyone's ability to perform their duties. There are many practitioners of the asari "siarist" philosophy. Since opening dialog with the human Systems Alliance, some turians have embraced Confucianism and Zen Buddhism.

I actually did overlook that entry. I'm a fan but a lot of what I know based on the experience from the story. Not enough time to read the codex but I did try to read some of it. Ended up taking an hour to just get through the Council races.

I have to admit that you have a point that asari and turians are examples are species that do not fall into the trope of "If it isn't human then it has a mass culture." I still think that at the very least Mass Effect could throw in some cultures within the alien cultures. It is nice to know that turians have variety in philosophy. It makes them seem more real and less like "Dem aliums that likes the militarizies."

This. It would be much nicer to see a lot more diversity within the various races. I think that will take much more time though.

[Goneaviking]

Escapulario100 wrote...

All species have something expecial. Example: Salarians are smart, Quarians are tech expert, Volus are great merchants, Turians have a great sence of public sence. So, what do we humans have? Will power

The annoyance doesn't come from human's being special on an individual level, no one claims that all humans are superior at everything. It comes from the way that the entire plot seems to hinge on humans collective noteworthiness, as opposed to merely Shepard the individual.

It isn't just ingame content either, it's in all of the background context that we're given. We find a cache of alien technology and then we figure out how to use and replicate it within a decade; when our first contact with an alien race turns ugly we're able to hold our own against them despite their having thousands of years headstart in both technological development and space combat strategy. We're awarded an embassy on the citadel in just a few years while we're explicitly told that almost no race is given one in the first hundred years dealing with the citadel.

Despite our being relative newcomers to the scene everybody, literally, knows who we are and has an opinion about us... because in a galaxy with dozens or hundreds of alien races and trillions of lives there's nothing better to talk about than us. With the possible exception about whether or not there are fish in the lakes on the presidium.

[Alraiis]

Asari are biotic prodigies with 1,000-year lifespans, mind-melding capabilities, and universal sex appeal. That's pretty special, too.

But, in seriousness, humanity's 40-year rise to power seems way too fast. I can see it how might be tough to write around it, though. I would imagine the writers wanted a story that allows the player to participate in some of the highest levels of power and importance and feel like they're a figure of destiny, but they also wanted the galaxy to be new enough to justify a huge amount of exposition and a sense of discovery.

Modifié par Alraiis, 08 août 2011 - 10:49 .

[Boiny Bunny]

From my point of view, it's a bad thing for humans to always be the 'special' species in sci-fi. It would be fine if there was more of a balance across the genre, but almost literally every sci-fi book/show/game/movie has humans slated as the 'special' race - it's over-used, and incredibly arrogant.

I would love to play a game where humans were the 'scum' species of the universe, incapable of technology or higher thought processes that some of the other species possess.

Or perhaps a dark fantasy world where humans were almost extinct, and a slave class to a mighty elven empire. Without portraying the elves as evil at all, or the plot involving a pathetic cliched 'rise up against the elves' storyline.

[EternalPink]

I think humanity are the saviors of the universe was pretty much used up in star trek with the federation and for those of us that aren't a fan of the sqeaky clean nice federation (or that sort of sci-fi) the darker gritter mass effect universe was a welcome alternative so for the last game to be heading in that direction its a bit worrisome.

Personnally i don't have an issue with how we've been dealt with in ME1 and 2 since it's not felt that we are particularly special we are just the new kids on the block, i'm sure when the salarians uplifted the krogan and everybody was oohhh something we can shoot all day without it dying they felt quite special to.

As to us being the only one's that are imaginative/able to think outside the box the counter to that would be that no other races has needed to, everything has been stable for several hundred years since the krogan rebellions. Necessity is meant to be the the mother of all inventions yet there has been no necessity since everybody knows what tech everybody else has, how it works, how they will react, how there army works, there fleet size and strengths and so on.

Modifié par EternalPink, 09 août 2011 - 12:00 .

[SandTrout]

A consistent, and valid, point that keeps popping up is how Humans apparently matched the technological advancement of the Council Races in such a short period of time. I agree that this does seem anomalous that a species that is not known for being exceptionally smart to achieve parity with a culture that is 1k years ahead of them in terms of space travel. I do not think that this falls under the simple category of 'bad writing', however.

I believe that our anomalous rise to power may have been the result of the unique qualities of the Martian Cache. It is clearly noted as being a primary means by which Humanity gained much of its technological advancement in ME, and while we know apparently little about the specifics of how other species gained ME technology, our rate of advancement from the cache appears to be the exception, rather than the rule, of technological progress in the galaxy.

You can read the details in my Martian Legacy thread.

[Rekkampum]

SandTrout wrote...

A consistent, and valid, point that keeps popping up is how Humans apparently matched the technological advancement of the Council Races in such a short period of time. I agree that this does seem anomalous that a species that is not known for being exceptionally smart to achieve parity with a culture that is 1k years ahead of them in terms of space travel. I do not think that this falls under the simple category of 'bad writing', however.

I believe that our anomalous rise to power may have been the result of the unique qualities of the Martian Cache. It is clearly noted as being a primary means by which Humanity gained much of its technological advancement in ME, and while we know apparently little about the specifics of how other species gained ME technology, our rate of advancement from the cache appears to be the exception, rather than the rule, of technological progress in the galaxy.

You can read the details in my Martian Legacy thread.

*Conspiracy hat*

Maybe the Reapers gave us our technology so we could advance to the Council's level faster than other races and eventually overtake the Galaxy and take on their duty by augmenting ourselves into cyborgs. Could just be a possibility.

*Conspiracy hat off*

If we do enough handwaving I'm sure humanity's status in the ME universe, apart from being a sci-fi trope, will make sense eventually. Or maybe humans are the galaxy's deus ex machina in the fight against the Reapers?

[laudable11]

I like you humans. I think you are special.

[ThePwener]

Earth isn't the only planet under attack. The Turian homeworld was invaded and it's entire population (the survivors anyway) driven off to a nearby moon.

For all we know, the Reapers aren't on Earth to harvest, but simply exterminate. They may have given up on the Human-Reaper with they're base lost. maybe not, but I doubt they brought a backup Collector Base with them from darkspace.

[ThePwener]

laudable11 wrote...

I like you humans. I think you are special.

What are you? Turian? Krogan? Get the hell outta here!

[EternalPink]

SandTrout wrote...

A consistent, and valid, point that keeps popping up is how Humans apparently matched the technological advancement of the Council Races in such a short period of time. I agree that this does seem anomalous that a species that is not known for being exceptionally smart to achieve parity with a culture that is 1k years ahead of them in terms of space travel. I do not think that this falls under the simple category of 'bad writing', however.

I believe that our anomalous rise to power may have been the result of the unique qualities of the Martian Cache. It is clearly noted as being a primary means by which Humanity gained much of its technological advancement in ME, and while we know apparently little about the specifics of how other species gained ME technology, our rate of advancement from the cache appears to be the exception, rather than the rule, of technological progress in the galaxy.

You can read the details in my Martian Legacy thread.

The council races until sovereign appears are no more advanced than the other client races since they've all had the mass effect tech for a long time, the game doesnt mention how salarian ships are faster than volus or elcor and from the mass relays themselves i dont think the speed or abilities of the object being moved matter (we make a trip from illos to the citadel in a mako) so other than FTL speeds which again would be more influenced by the mass effect technology that everybody has had for time than the newly discovered thrusters that boost speed by 1% (i.e new original research rather than repear/protean influenced research)

The galaxy is safe and stable so non-military tech would be traded so there would be a parity in civillian technologies from trade since there would be no reason not to trade a current tech CPU (or the data on how to create and use) other than to maintain monopolies so anything we hadn't discovered already unless it was a weapon we could barter for either offically or unofficially (believe kaiden talks about how we use turian biotics for this exact reason).

Humans aren't behind by 1k years if everybody else stopped devoting a lot of resources to development of new technologies 900 years ago, and since there are planets like noveria it seems to me that research has been outsourced, the ability to equip, arm and maintain a fleet being more of a drain than research

[Arken]

Destroy Raiden wrote...

I wouldn't play a game or watch a movie where its all aliens that are so far removed from human like behavior that its outright bizarre. I don't mind how BW is making the traditional humans are special in space opera I like it that way and would prefer it that way I don't get the hate for pixel humanity.

It's okay to want to play as a human. I think what we want is to actually make aliens seem more human. The issue is that humans get special privileges that aliens don't get. An example being that we know that humans form groups within groups.

Even in the game we have Cerberus, and Tera Firma. Two pro-human groups. One is political and one is kind of like the ****s. Cerberus is kind of like the **** because they cover the government, military, and even science just like the ****s did in real life.

It would be great to see some different groups within the aliens species. It would make them feel less like an entire species is based on a stereotype. In real life different sub-groups of people don't have to live up to what people expect of their main group.

There are jerks, saints, cheats, liars, and crooks no matter where you go. Kaidan said so himself that aliens are just like humans on an emotional level.

So we know that aliens are just as diverse, but we don't get to see it enough. Maybe meeting an alien artist would be cool. Maybe a salarian artist?