403 réponses à ce sujet

[Rekkampum]

ThePwener wrote...

Earth isn't the only planet under attack. The Turian homeworld was invaded and it's entire population (the survivors anyway) driven off to a nearby moon.

For all we know, the Reapers aren't on Earth to harvest, but simply exterminate. They may have given up on the Human-Reaper with they're base lost. maybe not, but I doubt they brought a backup Collector Base with them from darkspace.

Maybe Garrus teed them off. Or they think Turians are the next best thing after humans to build a Reaper out of. I really can't wait to see how this pans out.

[100k]

SandTrout wrote...

Honestly, ME doesn't portray Humanity as all that 'special'. We are unique in our diversity, both biologically and culturally, but all of the other species are pretty unique as well. The Asari are a race of jedi space-elves, the Turians are a highly disciplined military dictatorship, the Salarians are sneaky, quick-thinking, interstellar lizards, the Krogan are biological tanks, the Elcor are slow-tempered inhabitants of a high-gravity world, and the Volus are dormant Biotic Gods. In this menagerie, humans are not that special.

The only thing that is Special about humanity is that we happen to be the ones that BioWare is marketing to, and therefor the story will be a human-centric one.

I'd actually say that that is the problem. The turians are militant. The asari are cultured. The krogan are violent. 

All of these races appeal to cultures on earth-- with very little to distinguish them, minus an alien name and character model.

Krogan = viking/Spartan
Asari = romantic civilizations 
Turians = Israeli culture

Humans are never put into that same sort of niche, which would have been kind of nice. I understand that humans are fairly diverse, but it just makes them stand out more than ever. Couldn't humans = the galactic wanderers? The race that just sort of appears all over the place, like grass? Or couldn't we be builders? Sort of a lower class race that is rising slowly up through the community?

(Not saying that all of the members of each of these races fits to these stereotypes -- for instance, some krogan are extremely intelligent and polite, some asari are violent and cruel, some turians are rebellious and outgoing, etc.

We just need to find humanity a good niche for them (us) to fit into comfortably.

[darth_lopez]

SandTrout wrote...

A consistent, and valid, point that keeps popping up is how Humans apparently matched the technological advancement of the Council Races in such a short period of time. I agree that this does seem anomalous that a species that is not known for being exceptionally smart to achieve parity with a culture that is 1k years ahead of them in terms of space travel. I do not think that this falls under the simple category of 'bad writing', however.

I believe that our anomalous rise to power may have been the result of the unique qualities of the Martian Cache. It is clearly noted as being a primary means by which Humanity gained much of its technological advancement in ME, and while we know apparently little about the specifics of how other species gained ME technology, our rate of advancement from the cache appears to be the exception, rather than the rule, of technological progress in the galaxy.

You can read the details in my Martian Legacy thread.

Ironically threads like these are one of the reasons i started this, People for some reason seem to be against anything potentially related to humans being a major factor in beating the reapers :/ even though our homeoworld is under siege. EDIT: No matter how potentially interesting or suprising the link might be

And i agree with you on the subject of "It's porbably not as simple as 'bad writing'"

Modifié par darth_lopez, 09 août 2011 - 12:29 .

[SandTrout]

@100k We do fall into a cultural Niche, though it is difficult to recognize due to familiarity.

ME era Humanity falls under the Western/Individualitst niche. The SA values initiative and a governmental structure that is apparently limited in scope to primarily military functions while maintaining the political and individual freedom that is distinct to modern Western Culture.

[100k]

SandTrout wrote...

@100k We do fall into a cultural Niche, though it is difficult to recognize due to familiarity.

ME era Humanity falls under the Western/Individualitst niche. The SA values initiative and a governmental structure that is apparently limited in scope to primarily military functions while maintaining the political and individual freedom that is distinct to modern Western Culture.

An excellent point, but the Asari are also fairly "western" as well. They fall under the "Age of Enlightenment" era from humanity, with some small mixes of Eastern cultures (specifically hindu and buddhist). This, I feel, detracts from humanity in the long run (portrayal wise).

Modifié par 100k, 09 août 2011 - 12:41 .

[TheZyzyva]

 Just read everything, and since there does in fact appear to be some intelligent debate occuring, I feel the need to be a part of it.

As far as the argument goes that humans being special is lazy writing, it absolutely is. Not that I'm attacking it for that, most every innovation in history comes from lazyness and the desire for something to be easy. Making humans special is simply an easy way to make people care about the story, it's an ego boost to everyone to see someone we relate to overcome the odds, even if that someone is a whole race.

My problem with the story as a whole is that it's a human orriented story in an inncreasingly human orriented galaxy. That's not compelling to me, it's too easy. I don't want to hear about how awesome humans are becuase I already care about humans. A more interesting story to me would be about any other race in ME. People are saying that the other races are bland, generic, ect, and that they don't care about them. Well that's because the writers haven't taken us deep enough inside their races.

It's difficult to create something that is innately foreign and still relatable, but that is what sci-fi writers need to be able to do. Someone brought up how terrible it would be to sit through Liara over-acting about alien planets that we don't care about, but that we wouldn't care is just the problem. Making us care would have been hard, so they went the easy way and made it all about humans in the end. And that is what I call lazy writing.

While there is a lot more I want to elaborate on, nobody likes a wall of text, so all leave with an anectdote. (That might not be the right term, forgive me if I'm wrong) I am an American and went through school learning that WW2 didn't start until Pearl Harbor and then things got real. I hate hearing about how America won the war and all the pats on the back we give ourselves. I am far more interested in the French rebellions, the Russian border, and the contributions of literally any other country.

But maybe that's just me.

[100k]

Hey, I agree man. The untold story is often the more interesting story.

What really irks me is that, because humans are soooo diverse, Shepard always gets multiple humans in the crew, rather than multiple aliens. I really like Ash/Kaiden, Miranda, Jacob, Zaeed, and Kasumi (and probably Vega), but why is it that we have to be limited to one alien per race + multiple humans?

I'd really like to see the dynamic between multiple (preferably two) asari on the crew, or drell, or turians, etc etc. I want to hear Garrus and another turian specialist put in an inside "turian" joke, or "turian" saying, and have them explain it to me so I can see that there really is a culture beneath them. Heh, one of my favorite moments in ME2 is when the asari cop and Samara are having an "asari-exclusive" conversation, and Shepard says "Uh, the human is lost here." Especially if you're playing as femShep, because she sounds slightly annoyed :-p

[Nooneyouknow13]

Considering Prothean tech is in actuality Reaper tech, and that the Reapers want all sentient life in the galaxy to use that tech so they develop along pre-determined and easy to control tech routes, I highly doubt reverse engineering it is particularly hard actually. There's also the matter of the Normandy being a joint Turian and Human design, and the fact that the only reason the Krogan aren't the favored targets of the Reapers is the genophage.

Also, I could be wrong on this, but weren't eh Salarians extremely no-expansions having very, very few colonies and therefore not all that many significant environment to experience speciation in? That isn't even taking into account the tendency of intelligent being to alter their surroundings to be more what they would want them to be. Terraforming of any sort would greatly stagnate speciation. All humanity would need to do do have developed greater genetic diversity though speciation than other races was...simply take longer to initially advance technologically. I don't recall if it's specifically stated anywhere that we did, but I would certainly expect we did compared to the Salarians, since higher than human average intelligence is their specialty. They would have begun altering their environments to suit themselves instead of the other way around much earlier. And then there's the part where Asari are natural biotics.

[sedrikhcain]

Saphra Deden wrote...

I'm not a terribly big fan of it myself, actually.

I think it gets in the way of the universe.

Every moment spent interacting with the Alliance or visiting a human world is one more moment we aren't seeing the far more interesting and exotic alien equivalents.

Well, since the only human places we've been to are a handful of colonies, I'm not sure what the problem is.
 
I think it's a bit naive to play a game in which you are a human character -- and always have been, right from the start -- and then complain that the game's central character interfaces with interstellar politics from a human perspective. There are 3 games in the Mass Effect trilogy. In the first two, we have yet to even see so much as a picture of Earth. I don't see the problem. 

[DarkDragon777]

Rekkampum wrote...

ThePwener wrote...

Earth isn't the only planet under attack. The Turian homeworld was invaded and it's entire population (the survivors anyway) driven off to a nearby moon.

For all we know, the Reapers aren't on Earth to harvest, but simply exterminate. They may have given up on the Human-Reaper with they're base lost. maybe not, but I doubt they brought a backup Collector Base with them from darkspace.

Maybe Garrus teed them off. Or they think Turians are the next best thing after humans to build a Reaper out of. I really can't wait to see how this pans out.

No, they would probably make an asari Reaper, since the asari are the most successful race in the galaxy.

[SandTrout]

DarkDragon777 wrote...

No, they would probably make an asari Reaper, since the asari are the most successful race in the galaxy.

Successful how? The are economically powerfull because of the age of their civilization, but that apparently is a non-starter for the Reapers.

@100k,

Oh, and for the cultural analogs to the Council races, I think it goes more along these lines:

Asari= Pre-helenistic Greece
Turians= Roman Empire
Salarians= Chinese (ancient)
Krogan= Celtic

Just my opinion though, except the Turian thing. They were named after the Centurians.

Modifié par SandTrout, 09 août 2011 - 02:24 .

[Boiny Bunny]

It depends what characteristics the Reapers desire in a species. We have no idea what these might be. The Salarians are the most intelligent, the Asari are the most powerful Biotics, the Krogan exhibit the most physical strength, etc.

Humans don't really appear to be anything special - just a 'jack of all trades'. It seems the only reason that the Reapers took interest in humankind is because of a single human: Shepard.

[100k]

SandTrout wrote...

DarkDragon777 wrote...

No, they would probably make an asari Reaper, since the asari are the most successful race in the galaxy.

Successful how? The are economically powerfull because of the age of their civilization, but that apparently is a non-starter for the Reapers.

@100k,

Oh, and for the cultural analogs to the Council races, I think it goes more along these lines:

Asari= Pre-helenistic Greece
Turians= Roman Empire
Salarians= Chinese (ancient)
Krogan= Celtic

Just my opinion though, except the Turian thing. They were named after the Centurians.

I'd say that's fairly accurate. I don't know about the Salarians and the ancient Chinese, but then again, I don't know much about ancient China.

[Therefore_I_Am]

Well if it makes you guys feel better, it seems that earth is the first to burn during ME3.

Modifié par Therefore_I_Am, 09 août 2011 - 02:53 .

[100k]

I hope there is a point where Earth can be destroyed without it being the end of the game. It would be a really emotional scene if Shepard lost communication with Earth for a few weeks, the relay was turned off (by the Relay via the dark switches), and when Shepard finally makes it back to the planet, she finds its surface pulverized.

I can imagine her falling to her knees, staring around at a Hiroshima like world -- completely dead.

[darth_lopez]

SandTrout wrote...

DarkDragon777 wrote...

No, they would probably make an asari Reaper, since the asari are the most successful race in the galaxy.

Successful how? The are economically powerfull because of the age of their civilization, but that apparently is a non-starter for the Reapers.

@100k,

Oh, and for the cultural analogs to the Council races, I think it goes more along these lines:

Asari= Pre-helenistic Greece
Turians= Roman Empire
Salarians= Chinese (ancient)
Krogan= Celtic

Just my opinion though, except the Turian thing. They were named after the Centurians.

I'm not sure i follow on the Salarians and Krogan. But i don't know much about Celtic Culture >.> or the ancient chinese<.<

[SandTrout]

I'm not an expert, but I was under the impression that the ancient chinese dynasties were very espionage driven, politically, and they more frequently absorbed invading cultures than forcefully expelling them. Likewise, I was under the impression that the Celts were a very warrior and clan centric culture.

Vikings and Spartans might actually be a better analog for the krogan, though, now that I think about it X-P

[darth_lopez]

Vikings i could see they were constantly warring and raiding and i'm sure they were found acting as mercenaries frequently, Spartans i'd see more of the Turians, Conscription at a young age, required military service. As far as i know they still respected freedom of thought and expression >.> but i'm not a history buff and my understanding of spartans ends at they were like the best warriors of ancient europe <.<

edit: i also see the connection to the salarians now if that is the case i was unaware of that entirely. I could see for intelligence purposes and such (first country to create explosives as far as i know, Sun Tzu (despite most of that actually being common sense in my honest opinion) , Confucious, etc...) But i was unaware of the espionage.


edit edit: on the Note of the spartans i do know that they did have like some sort of slave class that could potentially be likened to the Volus as turian vassals essentially or the non-Turian Auxillary units

Modifié par darth_lopez, 09 août 2011 - 03:29 .

[100k]

@darth_lopez

Now that I think about it, Vikings seems more in common with the batarians. They survive by raiding and enslaving.

The Spartans, whose entire existence revolved around combat, seem to be krogan.

Turians seem to be like apache.

Modifié par 100k, 09 août 2011 - 03:33 .

[darth_lopez]

100k wrote...

@darth_lopez

Now that I think about it, Vikings seems more in common with the batarians. They survive by raiding and enslaving.

The Spartans, whose entire existence revolved around combat, seem to be krogan.

Turians seem to be like apache.

How so I don't know much about the Apache? or cammanche for that matter >.> aside from we liked them enough to name helicopters after them <.<


Just read about their social structure on Wikipedia. That does not sound too much like Turian Hierarchy to me honestly :/ 

Modifié par darth_lopez, 09 août 2011 - 03:42 .

[Whatever42]

I don't think the krogan would have a direct comparison to an earth culture. Their whole culture, driven by intense overpopulation, is about death. The Spartans weren't consumed with death and suffering like the krogan.

Batarians do seem like Vikings a little bit but societally seem very different. The Vikings were hardly what you would call organized. And their slaves had a very different role in society than the Batarian slaves.

[SandTrout]

Turians are Roman. I forget who said it, but this was explicitly stated.

[darth_lopez]

I could totally see turians as romans that makes sense, What a friend of mine brought up in our TS just now is that the Krogan don't have a central leadership until Wrex came along they would be more akin to a tribal society or Maybe the Thracians >.> (i have no idea who the thracians are ancient history is not my favorite).

[Sharn01]

I kind of felt the whole point of being a human in the ME universe should have been because we (the players) are human, and we can see this large galaxy with so many things that are completely beyond us through the eyes of our own race, who is relatively new to space travel, and logically should be technologically behind the other races.

Instead we get a story that focuses on and around humans, who are so innately awesome that we can accomplish in less then a century what the other races accomplished over as much as thousands of years. Maybe the other races shared technological advances with humanity after they came under the wings of the council, but they didnt even hint at this during the game.

It doesnt mean that ME3 cant be an enjoyable and interesting game, but there is and should be a lot more to focus on in a galaxy, (Do people even realize how immense it is?) then just us, and if saving earth is the only way to stop the reapers, well, thats just ridiculous.

[Goneaviking]

SandTrout wrote...

Turians are Roman. I forget who said it, but this was explicitly stated.

Also, the names are a bit of a clue.