403 réponses à ce sujet

[Rockworm503]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Bogsnot1 wrote...

Lazy writing is unacceptable. Following the age old trope of "humans be speshul coz they be speshul herpyderp" is old, boring, and quite frankly, insulting.

If we were the only race in the galaxy, fair enough, but in a multi-raced adventure like ME, it would be nice for someone else to hold the trump card occasionally.

That.

It just feels boring when humanity accomplishes everything without lifting a finger.

So getting a spectre of our race stopping Saren/Sovereign and the collectors and most likely stopping the reapers is not even lifting a finger?

[sedrikhcain]

Sharn01 wrote...

I kind of felt the whole point of being a human in the ME universe should have been because we (the players) are human, and we can see this large galaxy with so many things that are completely beyond us through the eyes of our own race, who is relatively new to space travel, and logically should be technologically behind the other races.

Instead we get a story that focuses on and around humans, who are so innately awesome that we can accomplish in less then a century what the other races accomplished over as much as thousands of years. Maybe the other races shared technological advances with humanity after they came under the wings of the council, but they didnt even hint at this during the game.

It doesnt mean that ME3 cant be an enjoyable and interesting game, but there is and should be a lot more to focus on in a galaxy, (Do people even realize how immense it is?) then just us, and if saving earth is the only way to stop the reapers, well, thats just ridiculous.

The main character is a human. It appears that the bulk of ME3 will be convincing the other races that Earth is worth saving.

Let's remember that none of the current galactic species invented FTL travel or communications. The Reapers figured that out and all the high-end tech in the galaxy is still based on that.

[sedrikhcain]

SandTrout wrote...

DarkDragon777 wrote...

No, they would probably make an asari Reaper, since the asari are the most successful race in the galaxy.

Successful how? The are economically powerfull because of the age of their civilization, but that apparently is a non-starter for the Reapers.

@100k,

Oh, and for the cultural analogs to the Council races, I think it goes more along these lines:

Asari= Pre-helenistic Greece
Turians= Roman Empire
Salarians= Chinese (ancient)
Krogan= Celtic

Just my opinion though, except the Turian thing. They were named after the Centurians.

the various species in the game certainly have parallels among human ethnic groups/civilizations but I don't think any of them are as simple as to be reduced to just a mask of their analogue.

[lovgreno]

Someone With Mass wrote...

I don't think a race is "special" just because it's born with a few certain beneficial traits/traits that are acceptable given the environment, but it can be overdone.

Exactly. I don't mind humanity being the adaptive race that gains a lot of sucesses in a short time. In fact it usualy makes a good story in the ME universe. But going from a newcommer without even a single colony to the possible bully of the Citadell in less than a human lifetime? That is adaptive to the level of Mary Sueism, wich is not what I find a interesting story. But sure, if someone wants to play as Super Shepard from the superiour race who am I to deny them that? Personaly I find underdogs more interesting and realistic though.

[ubermensch007]

Asari: Ah a human.Your kind is always shoving your way in to solve the galaxies problems; aren't you?! ...

Shepard: Look sweetheart :

1. When you need a problem shot.Ask a turian.

2. When you need a problem talked to death.Ask an Asari.

3. When you need a "NEW" problem.Ask a Salarian. <_<

4. When you want a problem fixed -- Ask a Human...

Asari:  Like you fixed the Council? If you'll excuse me.We don't want to talk with your kind...

Shepard: It seems I've offended you.that wasn't my intention.

The Asari female stands up and says,"Your attitude offends me.Your smugness.The arrogance.All humans are like that since you let the Geth kill the 'REAl' Council... Now -- the galaxies in chaos! Pirates are striking in civilized clusters.Armed C-Sec Officers are EVERYWHERE for "Our Protection" -- And you swagger up to me -- Thump your chest and tell me that "Only a human can solve my problems.(The Asari scoffs and then says) Screw you human." And shoves Commander Shepard...

WOW... This is really like one of the Best NPC/Commander Shepard Moments of Dialog and Interaction in the entire game.And it takes place with a character who isn't even given a proper name (I think) That's some KILLER Dialog man.She and Shepard feed off each other and they both take turns being "The Scene Stealer"

(And -- You guys have Nooooooooooooooooooooo Idea how long it took me to find this dialogue.About 30 minutes or more.I had thought Renegade Shepard said this to someone else.I tried keyword searches that failed.Went to a save point in my ME 2 game.And then I just remembered who he was talking too, when he said this.it came to me just sort of "out of the blue") Shepard Vs. Asari: A Duel of Words

For some reason this dialogue came to my mind when I was reading this thread.I think I have to agree with others who said that humans are sort of a "jack of all trades species in the Mass Effect Universe.To counter what Commander Shepard said to the asari. 'For the record' As BIG & BAD as our Military Industrial Complex may be.As inventive as we are at creating new ways to take life and destroy property.

The Krogan are FAR better at this than we are! If you recall -- I remember being So Frakin Shocked -- to find out that the krogan split the atom and invented weapons of mass destruction. 4,000 Years before we did.Not only that though.They are physiologically superior to most if not all other species in the ME galaxy in many ways.They make the Klingons look like Girl Scouts in comparison...

And as it has been said of the Asari Commandos: As a popular turian saying puts it, "The asari are the finest warriors in the galaxy. Fortunately, there are not many of them."


The Salarians: STG operators are feared throughout the galaxy for their clear-eyed,
remorseless practicality. They are willing to do whatever it takes to
achieve their mission, even if it kills civilians or results in the
team's own destruction. In many ways, they are akin to the Council Spectres. 


I say they are "feared" with good reason! Them Sons of B!tches are BADASS... 

And the way that the Salarians go to War with no formal annoucement:

In every war the salarians have fought, they struck first and without
warning. For the salarians, to know an enemy plans to attack and to let
it happen is folly. To announce their own plans to attack is insanity.
They find the human moral concepts of "do not fire until fired upon" and "declare a war before prosecuting it" incredibly naive.

As for the Turians: There "RESOLVE" is Legendary.You only need to look at how they reacted to the War of attrition in the Krogan Rebellions.Or more recently: The Cerberus Daily News Reports concerning the conflict after the attack on Taetrus...The Turians certainly handled these terrorist attacks; better than the Bush Administration reacted after what happened September 11th 2001...

I have more to say. but I think that this is a good place to stop for now.

[Ghost-621]

SandTrout wrote....

The only thing that is Special about humanity is that we happen to be the ones that BioWare is marketing to, and therefore the story will be a human-centric one.

This pretty much sums up my thinking.

[armass]

jamesp81 wrote...

Really?

It's quite simple. Bioware is in business to make money. They don't make money by making a game that gets all preachy to their 100% human audience about how humans are not noteworthy, inherently bad, or are of no unique intrinsic worth.

Grow the hell up people.

Avatar preached about human civilization heavily and it has made more money than most movies in history.

Besides they have cerberus, a human organization, in the game that presently screws up more things for the galaxy than all the "bad" races combined, at least from what i have seen. They even had a facility where they drugged and experimented on the children of their own species. Havent seen even the batarians doing anything that vile(tough id imagine they well might also do it).

Star control universe handled humans right in scifi settin imo, it made us the new kids. inexperienced and vulnerable, tough still passionate freedom fighters and glue that brings and binds other species together in times of crisis. It's ok to make humans a little special, but when you go overboard with it it can really hurt the believability. Mass Effect so far is ok, but that membership in council 40 year after first contact and the supposed most advanced and biggest fleet and military power after war of the Citadel is kinda testing my limits. Some of the best medical and A.I companies in the galaxy are suddenly human, all the newest technologies and innovation come from humans, not to mention the fact that you see humans everywhere.

Testing my limits...

Modifié par armass, 09 août 2011 - 06:21 .

[Massadonious1]

Well, I think the whole awesomeness and "diverse" factor can be toned down a bit, but you can almost expect at least a small portion of that considering the race of the main character we play.

If Shep was a Turian, Krogan, <insert alien race here>, then I'm pretty sure there would be a little more emphasis on them as well.

[Kakistos_]

I don't want humans to be special because it's cliche. Moreover it doesn't really sit well with the setting of the ME universe. Humans are very new to galactic society and they clearly have their positive traits that have helped them up the ladder, as well as some favor from the Council, but it was taken too far with human Council(really!) and probability curve thing(Mordin). It was nice not to be the focal point of the universe for a change, while it lasted. There was a focus on the alien and unknown but now it seems to have descended into all the crap I already know because I am human and probably will be for the rest of my life.

[marshalleck]

lovgreno wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

I don't think a race is "special" just because it's born with a few certain beneficial traits/traits that are acceptable given the environment, but it can be overdone.

Exactly. I don't mind humanity being the adaptive race that gains a lot of sucesses in a short time. In fact it usualy makes a good story in the ME universe. But going from a newcommer without even a single colony to the possible bully of the Citadell in less than a human lifetime? That is adaptive to the level of Mary Sueism, wich is not what I find a interesting story. But sure, if someone wants to play as Super Shepard from the superiour race who am I to deny them that? Personaly I find underdogs more interesting and realistic though.

So if the game were set in 2285 but none of the narrative or gameplay elements changed at all you'd be perfectly content with it?

That's a pretty insignificant gripe, come on. 

[darth_lopez]

@marshalleck i can understandwhat lovgreno is getting at, really the only thing in ME, until ME 2, that makes Humans Special in Mass Effect is the fact we Literally Took a light speed jump up the chain of power in comparisson to other races.

I think if it were set like 50-100 years later it would solve the issue entirely But at the same time it would marginally rob humanity of the one thing we have that is Unique incomparisson to other races in the game, our determination, however that is a quality i don't think would be unique to us entirely :/

[sedrikhcain]

Rockworm503 wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Bogsnot1 wrote...

Lazy writing is unacceptable. Following the age old trope of "humans be speshul coz they be speshul herpyderp" is old, boring, and quite frankly, insulting.

If we were the only race in the galaxy, fair enough, but in a multi-raced adventure like ME, it would be nice for someone else to hold the trump card occasionally.

That.

It just feels boring when humanity accomplishes everything without lifting a finger.

So getting a spectre of our race stopping Saren/Sovereign and the collectors and most likely stopping the reapers is not even lifting a finger?

Not to mention the fact that humanity accomplishes nothing on its own in any of the Mass Effect games. We are the new kids on the block and we are quite pushy but all of the species come by their tech secondhand and the mass effect epic story is about how the species come together to fight a common enemy. Nothing about humanity, per se, is special in this epic tale. As with all epics, only the central character is the special one. As TIM says, "one very specific" human.

[darth_lopez]

armass wrote...


Besides they have cerberus, a human organization, in the game that presently screws up more things for the galaxy than all the "bad" races combined, at least from what i have seen. They even had a facility where they drugged and experimented on the children of their own species. Havent seen even the batarians doing anything that vile(tough id imagine they well might also do it).

You should play as a Colonist? is it in ME 1, whichever option is the "My Family was killed in a batarian slave raid and my colony distroyed i signed on because i had nothing else left" origin. There's an incident at some point on the citadel you would find intriguing on this point.

edit: also you should look into see if there is a way you can get your hands on BDtS because that would also be a very good example on this point if  you can't get it though and you are interested PM me and i'll spoil BDtS for you if you want.

Modifié par darth_lopez, 09 août 2011 - 06:06 .

[armass]

darth_lopez wrote...

armass wrote...


Besides they have cerberus, a human organization, in the game that presently screws up more things for the galaxy than all the "bad" races combined, at least from what i have seen. They even had a facility where they drugged and experimented on the children of their own species. Havent seen even the batarians doing anything that vile(tough id imagine they well might also do it).

You should play as a Colonist? is it in ME 1, whichever option is the "My Family was killed in a batarian slave raid and my colony distroyed i signed on because i had nothing else left" origin. There's an incident at some point on the citadel you would find intriguing on this point.

Yeah but they do it to alien children, humans are aliens to them after all, do they do it on their own like Cerberus does all the time? Perhaps, but havent seen it.

Modifié par armass, 09 août 2011 - 06:07 .

[darth_lopez]

armass wrote...

Yeah but they do it to alien children, humans are aliens to them after all, do they do it on their own?

Ah >.> that's what you were getting at....hold on give me a second.... Alright i got nothing xD Honestly i'm sure some Salarians have had they're crazy experiments though <.< they are salarians after all

it is quite odd the lengths cerberus will go to for a supposedly pro-human organization. Potential Plot point?

Modifié par darth_lopez, 09 août 2011 - 06:09 .

[armass]

darth_lopez wrote...

armass wrote...

Yeah but they do it to alien children, humans are aliens to them after all, do they do it on their own?

Ah >.> that's what you were getting at....hold on give me a second.... Alright i got nothing xD Honestly i'm sure some Salarians have had they're crazy experiments though <.< they are salarians after all

it is quite odd the lengths cerberus will go to for a supposedly pro-human organization. Potential Plot point?

For human supremacists they cause a lot of grief and pain for humans.

Modifié par armass, 09 août 2011 - 06:12 .

[didymos1120]

ubermensch007 wrote...

And it takes place with a character who isn't even given a proper name (I think)

Kalara Tomi.

[In Exile]

Han Shot First wrote...
The idea that humanity would be the most genetically diverse species in the galaxy is laughable, since humanity as a species isn't genetically diverse at all. About 75,000 years ago a supervolcano eruption in Indonesia almost caused our species to go extinct. As a result everyone alive today is descended from only a few thousand individuals, and many of the animals that share our own planet with us (like chimpanzees) are much more genetically diverse than we are.

While that's true, that doesn't mean that all the other species aren't even *more* inbred, and that being inbred (with an emphasis on intelligence) is what allows a species to evolve to space travel in the first place. 

[didymos1120]

armass wrote...

For human supremacists they cause a lot of grief and pain for humans.

Not an unusual occurence with idealogues.

[In Exile]

Boiny Bunny wrote...
I would love to play a game where humans were the 'scum' species of the universe, incapable of technology or higher thought processes that some of the other species possess.

Or perhaps a dark fantasy world where humans were almost extinct, and a slave class to a mighty elven empire. Without portraying the elves as evil at all, or the plot involving a pathetic cliched 'rise up against the elves' storyline.

Most people, simply put, wouldn't go for a game that isn't empowering. That's one of the major criticisms of DA2 (for example). People want to be heroes. People want to be praised. No one wants to be treated like garbage. 

[Boiny Bunny]

In Exile wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...
I would love to play a game where humans were the 'scum' species of the universe, incapable of technology or higher thought processes that some of the other species possess.

Or perhaps a dark fantasy world where humans were almost extinct, and a slave class to a mighty elven empire. Without portraying the elves as evil at all, or the plot involving a pathetic cliched 'rise up against the elves' storyline.

Most people, simply put, wouldn't go for a game that isn't empowering. That's one of the major criticisms of DA2 (for example). People want to be heroes. People want to be praised. No one wants to be treated like garbage. 

Yeah, I know that's the truth, sad as it is   As a result we'll always be seeing games with poor plots that make little sense in that regard, and somehow claiming that humans are brilliant and everybody should bow down before them.

Perhaps it's just the medium.  Humans being sub-par to other races may work better in a book, where the reader is not actually a part of the world in any form.

[Weskerr]

Sharn01 wrote...

I kind of felt the whole point of being a human in the ME universe should have been because we (the players) are human, and we can see this large galaxy with so many things that are completely beyond us through the eyes of our own race, who is relatively new to space travel, and logically should be technologically behind the other races.

Instead we get a story that focuses on and around humans, who are so innately awesome that we can accomplish in less then a century what the other races accomplished over as much as thousands of years. Maybe the other races shared technological advances with humanity after they came under the wings of the council, but they didnt even hint at this during the game.

It doesnt mean that ME3 cant be an enjoyable and interesting game, but there is and should be a lot more to focus on in a galaxy, (Do people even realize how immense it is?) then just us, and if saving earth is the only way to stop the reapers, well, thats just ridiculous.

I don't think there's anything ridiculous about humanity catching up, technologically, to the other Citadel species in a short amount of time. There are real-world historical instances of nations doing the same thing.

For instance, Japan. After Commodore Perry forced them to open trade with the United States and the west in 1854, within 50 years they - a backwards country, inferior technologically to the west in almost every way - were able to adopt western technology and science and become a world power comparable to any European country at the time (They defeated the Russian fleet in the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-05).

Another example is Israel. Recognized as a Jewish state in 1948 by the United Nations, within less than 10 years (along with Britain and France) they were able to stop Egypt from taking over the Seuz Canal. Within less than 20 years, they were able to not only fight off Syria, Jordan, and Egypt from invading their territory, but also conquered lands that belonged to those countries in the Six-Day War. And there are more examples concering Israel.

Modifié par Weskerr, 09 août 2011 - 10:48 .

[Bcuz]

Bogsnot1 wrote...

Lazy writing is unacceptable. Following the age old trope of "humans be speshul coz they be speshul herpyderp" is old, boring, and quite frankly, insulting.

If we were the only race in the galaxy, fair enough, but in a multi-raced adventure like ME, it would be nice for someone else to hold the trump card occasionally.

This.

[Vengeful Nature]

sponge56 wrote...

No offense, but its incredibly close minded of you to make a judgement that hypothetic aliens would be more geneticaly diverse than humans.

No offense taken. Unlike others (not you), I can take this for what it is: an interesting discussion between fans of the game. I don't think I'm being close minded, my judgements about the other species' greater genetic diversity is based on logic and educated guesses. Check my post a few pages back for an elaboration.

If your suggesting that it needs to be plausable and that Bioware should have done some reserach then Bioware would have used no imagination whatsoever and had the trilogyin the ISS.. By your logic Bioware screwed up with their whole 'mass effect fields'- becasue thats just as much bull****ty science as genetic diversity

darth_lopez wrote...

I'd also like to point out that 90% of the universe already attempts to feign real science while failing. I don't see how it's bad that this aspect does too.

As I said, you need an element of magitech to enable your space opera. However, there's a difference between a little bit of unobtainium to let us go to other worlds, and the total rape of already established biology. The best science fiction universes are the ones that have that smidgeon of a hypothetical enabler to grease the wheels of interstellar exploration, but everything else follows established science. The Mass Effect universe as establised in ME1 was one of these. This is, of course, my opinion. Some people have no trouble with all kinds of space magic. All I'm saying is that those people should know their universes for what they are: fantasy. Speaking for myself, this is not what attracted me to the Mass Effect universe.

Modifié par Vengeful Nature, 09 août 2011 - 11:51 .