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Templars vs. Mages


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#1
Illydoor

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I think it's a given that at some point in the future the Dragon Age series will be detailing the event of a mage uprising, perhaps even full-scale war with the Templars. Thus here are some questions I think should be addressed:

- How effective are Templars at combating mages? If we look at their abilities, they should technically be able to nullify mages completely, perhaps making it a one-sided fight. It seems demons and abominations are the Templars' greatest threat.

- Numbers: wiki states there are 13 circle of magi, if I'm correct, and couple this amount with the apostates and hermits and the whatnot, it could definitely lead to a very large mage army. How numerous are the templars?

- The Civillians: who will they side with? Undoubtedly a large number will have harboured a mage in their family perhaps, and thus be more supportive of the mages. But the widespread nature of the Chantry propaganda could counter that equally.

- The countries involved.

- The Dalish, the Qunari, the Grey Wardens involvement?

- The effect it's going to have on Thedas - even if the Templars win, they'll have a hard time rounding up all the mages who escaped and blah de blah. The Chantry, as Varric states, will indeed fall to pieces. And what happens if the mages win?

Obviously this will all be void if BioWare has some plan already in hand to prevent this, but still, fun to speculate Image IPB 

#2
Jedi Master of Orion

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Unless the templars begin perpetrating atrocities upon the general populace I expect most public opinion will favor the templars if anyone.

I get the impression there are supposed to be more templars per Circle than mages, plus there are apparently templars stationed in places other than the 13 Circles. They seem to be a few stationed around the continent to defend Chantries in villages and so forth.

The Grey Wardens probably ought to remain neutral. Their one and only concern still is fighting the darkspawn. The templars would be foolish to make an enemy of the wardens, it would be unnecessary and they don't really have any new reason to. So I don't see them stepping in unless it involves darkspawn.

The dalish as a whole almost certainly won't care about the shems' war unless either side directly tries to involve them. The templars again would find that unnecessary, even if the dalish technically have apostates. Attacking either the wardens or the dalish for having mages just makes their task of stopping the circle mage insurrection more complicated. And I doubt that they will have the desire or the resources to fully support the Circle mages.

I suspect the qunari will eventually use the chaos to stage an invasion of their own, thus starting a larger conflict. While they would certainly prefer the templars to the mages, I don't see them co-operating with either side unless there's an archdemon level threat to everyone.

#3
dragonflight288

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Hmm.

The templars would be incredibly effective at combating unprepared mages. However, an Arcane Warrior would be kind of harder for a templar to kill up close.

There are far fewer mages than there are templars, but that could just as easily mean easier to hide (after they raid the chantry and destroy the phylacteries of course). Most mages would probably destroy their phylactery and then settle down in some out of the way village and keep to his or herself.

Unless the war lasts a long time, most civilians will side with the templars at first. Chantry indoctrination has seen to that. But since the templars have abandoned the chantry in order to hunt mages, that also means they aren't getting their lyrium fix. When you have a large number of drug addicts (lyrium in this case) unable to get their fix...things get messy. They will likely pillage, rape, and plunder across thedas so they can get their lyrium. Do that long enough and the common man will stop seeing templars as holy protectors but even worse than the mages.

As for countries involved...Orlais will definitely support the templars and Ferelden will support the mages. I can see Rivain supporting mages, same with Tevinter. Nevarra will maybe support the templars. The Anderfels will support the grey wardens. The Free Marches most likely support the templars. Antiva however, being a country run by assassins, will likely be a wild card used by both sides of the conflict. Par Vollen and Seherron will simply conquer everyone while they're busy fighting each other.

The effect on Thedas. The chantry loses a great deal of power because they have lost their military arm. Any threat of an exalted march at this point is laughable and deserving of mockery. There is no army to march upon you.

The elves will likely gain a homeland again because the people on the land are all dead. And they will be just as mistrustful of everyone as ever before. Lanaya states that if the elves ever got a third homeland, they will expect the humans to try and take it.

#4
Ryzaki

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@dragonflight288: Only the Warden is a AW. (and perhaps those he/she decided to teach the skill o.) All the other AWs are pretty much non-existent.

#5
dragonflight288

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yeah. But ten years has passed. Who knows. The warden could have taken on apprentices.

#6
Ryzaki

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dragonflight288 wrote...

yeah. But ten years has passed. Who knows. The warden could have taken on apprentices.


The warden vanished. He/she has no time to taken on apprentices. 

#7
Erani

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I think Dragon Age Asunder is coming out later this year. We might find out the answer to some of those questions. ^_^

#8
LobselVith8

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Illydoor wrote...

Obviously this will all be void if BioWare has some plan already in hand to prevent this, but still, fun to speculate Image IPB 


I don't see the Dalish clans getting involved, it's not really their fight. Unless the templars decided to vigilantly hunt down the Keepers, the Firsts, and the other mages within Dalish society along with the Circle mages, I don't see them getting involved any more than the free mages living amongst the Avvar, the Chasind, or in the Kindgom of Rivain. There's also a lot we're not privy to about the state of the world, post-the Kirkwall Right of Annulment.

It depends largely on how the nations are reacting. King Alistair is harboring apostates and arguing for the Magi boon (depending on what The Warden asked for at the conclusion to Origins), and it depends on how the people are reacting to the fact that the Circles of Magi have gained autonomy and the Order of Templars has rebelled from the Chantry of Andraste to hunt down the mages.

#9
Jedi Master of Orion

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I'm not sure if individual nations will even take sides in the conflict. The templars have supposedly rebelled against the Divine's authority, so the Chantry doesn't have the final say on what happens anymore. And if she can't call the shots anymore, I don't know that any of the national armies will feel the need to intervene on behalf of one side or another.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 08 août 2011 - 11:17 .


#10
dragonflight288

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Part of why I said the Dalish would have a homeland. They would take land that everyone has been killed in the war on. Then they would be hostile-neutrals at best.

#11
Jedi Master of Orion

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Well if human nations began crumbling entirely they might take an interest, but I suspect they would only try to move in an take a homeland of their own if they knew they could defend it.

#12
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

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The templar's biggest threat is blood magic, as it is an edge the mages have that the Chantry has never full managed to combat. There's probably alot of "forbidden" magics outside the Chantry that are not related to blood magic that might also give the mages an edge.

But when regarding the mage templar conflict, you really can't look at it from the perspective of conventional warfare, as this is not a conventional war. There is no offical declaration or document, and by the end of DA2, both sides have gone completely rogue from their former masters.

As far as who will take what side, again, its difficult to fully speculate who will do what. There are a multidtude of political, social, and economic reasons for several powerful factions to take sides, as this war will provide numerous opportunities for the ambitous to seize upon the hostilities and use them to further unrelated goals. Never assume one side is an automatic ally to a particular group.

That said, this war between mage and templar likely has no chance of positive success. neither side has any more chance of success or failure, which means that more than likely, unless someone steps in with a plan, it will be a war spanning decades. The templars are an organized and trained military organization, but the mages would likely be using alot of random, unconventional, guerilla and terrorist tactics, which as we have all seen, can still bring mighty armies to their knees. It would be an endless serious of retaliations and massacres.

Kinda like an even more extended, twisted version of the war on Terror or Vietnam, except alot more gruesome and destructive.

#13
LobselVith8

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Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I'm not sure if individual nations will even take sides in the conflict. The templars have supposedly rebelled against the Divine's authority, so the Chantry doesn't have the final say on what happens anymore. And if she can't call the shots anymore, I don't know that any of the national armies will feel the need to intervene on behalf of one side or another.


If templars and mages are fighting within their kingdoms, I think it's going to be an issue for them.

#14
dragonflight288

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I honestly don't think the templars are actually that organized now they have left the Chantry. They will have to come up with a new hierarchy system of rank without the Divine or the Seekers. And then there's the fact that all of them have lost access to lyrium.

#15
EmperorSahlertz

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The Templars already got their ranks. Now they are simply completely seperated from the Chantry. And Templars have effectively been fighitng blood mages for 9 centuries, so I doubt it will be much more of an issue now.

#16
TEWR

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We have to consider these groups:

  • Chasind



  • Dalish



  • Rivaini



  • Grey Wardens



  • Nobility with ties to a mage relative (Arl Eamon and Arlessa Isolde, the DeLauncets, the Amells/Hawkes)



  • Mercenary companies and smugglers



  • Orzammar



  • Ferelden



  • Tevinter


---The Chasind have shamans amongst them, and Ostagar was built to watch for Chasind hordes. If they are still numerous enough to form a horde of their own, they could help out greatly. If the mages won, the Chasind wouldn't have to fear their shamans being taken by the Templars, if the Templars even try to. Taken from the codex on them:

Today, the Chasind are considered largely peaceful, though their ways are still primitive compared to our own. In the Korcari Wilds they live in strange-looking huts built on stilts or even built into the great treetops. They paint their faces and are split into small tribes ruled by shamans like those amongst the Avvars. There are many tales of these shamans having learned their magic from the "Witches of the Wilds," witches that inspire as much terror as they do awe and gratitude even if there is no definitive proof they exist. In particular, the tale of Flemeth, the greatest witch of the wilds, is celebrated amongst all tribes.

While there is no way to know how many there are in the Wilds today, few travelers that pass through the forests tell of Chasind eking out an existence even in the frozen wastelands of the far south. One can assume that should the Chasind ever organize themselves once more, we might have reason to fear them here in Ferelden. We ignore them at our peril.

--From Ferelden: Folklore and History, by Sister Petrine, Chantry scholar.



--- The Dalish are considered heathens by the Chantry, and the Templars hound them at every turn, which is one of the main reasons they remain nomadic (the other being bigotry and racism). Ariane wonders why the mages don't rise up (at least I think it was Ariane). She also says that it's tempting to just overthrow the order they have going on (again, I'm unsure if she said this. I haven't played WH in some time).

Not only that, but if the Dalish assisted the mages, one of the largest reasons why they're hunted would vanish. They wouldn't have to worry about losing their Keepers and Firsts. Whether the Chantry would respect their beliefs is unknown. Personally, I have my doubts. But... if the Chantry loses the war and they start listening to demands, the Dalish could demand they get a land of their own and never be bothered by humans. In return, they wouldn't bother humans either. And that all elves would be allowed to go there if they wanted. The Dalish could gain a lot from this war. Interestingly, Rivain is apparently incredibly friendly and peaceful with the Dalish.



--- As for the Rivaini, we only know that their Seers let themselves be possessed and that they don't believe in the Maker. But I like to believe they might help as well.


--- Grey Wardens are supposed to remain neutral. However, some interesting things have happened with them. Someone is apparently moving against them and went so far as to hire thugs to kill one of their messengers. So, if someone's moving against them (the Chantry maybe for allowing the Warden to become an Arl in Ferelden and possibly Alistair to be a king even though he renounced being a Warden, worried that they might threaten the Chantry's influence over Thedas?), their neutrality is thrown out the window against that party. If that party is the Chantry, or maybe just Templars, then they will probably assist the mages at least indirectly. If the Grey Warden mages are threatened by the Templars, the Grey Wardens will defend them. And we don't know how many Templars may do this. It may be none, barely any, or a lot.


--- Nobility. Nobility can do a lot. They could shelter mages and give them funding, hire mercenaries to help out, etc. They can sway more people to their side. Arl Eamon and King Alistair (and Anora to if a mage makes the US) are pro-mage people. Hawke has the potential to have helped two Orlesian nobles. Being that he is a Fereldan and a mage, they may be indebted to him so much that they assist Ferelden on both counts (trying to help keep an invasion from happening and being pro-mage)


--- fairly self explanatory for mercenaries and smugglers. Godwin apparently makes enough money to get by, and the Coterie of Kirkwall have mages in their ranks. Hire mercenary companies, hire smugglers to prevent Templars from getting lyrium, etc. Though I imagine the Templars may also try to use the smugglers for their own needs


--- Orzammar. If you agree to bring Dagna's request to the Circle, she writes a book that draws mages to form a new Circle in Orzammar. The Chantry and Templars would be fools to attack Orzammar because Orzammar is the only place that has people who can safely (though with some risks still there) mine lyrium.

Additionally, just because the Warden may say no does not mean that Dagna will not keep trying. Not everything revolves around the Warden. That he says "No" doesn't mean she will give up her dream so easily.

Finally, if a Chantry is established in Orzammar, Brother Burkel is slain. I personally take this to mean the Chantry in Orzammar is gone. Further, if a Circle was still established but under Chantry rule (though the epilogue doesn't say anything), that Circle may fall under the jurisdiction of Orzammar and not the Chantry, if the Assembly and King so willed it. Since you can do both quests, then I assume the result is exactly that. If you do both, a Chantry is established, it draws many converts, Brother Burkel is slain, Dagna writes a book, a Circle is established under chantry rule, it eventually falls under Orzammar rule when Burkel is slain. That would give the Divine more of a reason to contemplate marching in the epilogue than just "They killed a convert!"



--- Ferelden. Ferelden is a pro-mage country. The Templars and Mages work together, Gregoir seems to care about just being able to police mages, King Alistair, Arl Eamon, Bann Teagan, Bann Ferrenly, and Queen Anora are pro-mage people, the Warden can be pro-mage and even a mage, the Wardens have control over an entire Arling (which as I said, if someone threatens their mages, they will defend them). Ferelden seems to be key to the mages, as Alistair helps mages that aren't in the Circle. And I imagine many will have fled to the closest Circle near Kirkwall. That is Ferelden's, since Starkhaven's burned to the ground. Also, I believe that Ferelden will tell the Chantry to sod off.



--- Tevinter will indirectly assist at best. They don't have the manpower to dominate Thedas, and too many mages and non-mages would threaten the power they do have. If the Templars of the White Chantry move against them, they too will defend themselves.




Also, take into account that lyrium withdrawal can kill a Templar. How many Templars died from withdrawal I wonder? How many died from what is happening in Asunder?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 09 août 2011 - 12:28 .


#17
Jedi Master of Orion

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LobselVith8 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I'm not sure if individual nations will even take sides in the conflict. The templars have supposedly rebelled against the Divine's authority, so the Chantry doesn't have the final say on what happens anymore. And if she can't call the shots anymore, I don't know that any of the national armies will feel the need to intervene on behalf of one side or another.


If templars and mages are fighting within their kingdoms, I think it's going to be an issue for them.


Yeah, but I don't know if they're going to be interested in picking sides so much as just defending their own interests.

#18
TEWR

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Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I'm not sure if individual nations will even take sides in the conflict. The templars have supposedly rebelled against the Divine's authority, so the Chantry doesn't have the final say on what happens anymore. And if she can't call the shots anymore, I don't know that any of the national armies will feel the need to intervene on behalf of one side or another.


If templars and mages are fighting within their kingdoms, I think it's going to be an issue for them.


Yeah, but I don't know if they're going to be interested in picking sides so much as just defending their own interests.


If the rogue templars start murdering innocents and ransacking villages just to get their coin to buy lyrium, I think the kingdoms will know who to side with. Especially if the mages are helping the people and not the Templars. Just think about the irony if a mage protected a group of villagers from a rogue templar, when the Templars are supposed to protect the people

#19
dragonflight288

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The Tevinters have proven remarkably skilled at defending themselves from four exalted marches. At least I think it's four. I have to check the numbers again in the codex. but they don't have the manpower to send armies south because they are still fighting a war with the Qunari.

#20
Jedi Master of Orion

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Well yes, but again we don't know how either side is going to operate. Honestly I don't expect either side to turn out to be paragons of virtue.

#21
Dave of Canada

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Templar have military training, anti-magic training, largely equipped and extremely numerous with public support.

Mages have... magic training and that's pretty much it, they all have different goals and ways to see the situation too, so there's bound to be infighting (blood mages vs chantry loyalists vs ect). Maybe Tevinter if Tevinter steps up to defend them, though they probably don't care.

Mages are screwed.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 09 août 2011 - 12:33 .


#22
TEWR

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I actually really want to see my irony scenario be used. That would be glorious.

#23
dragonflight288

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I think this is a war of attrition for the mages, and appeasement for the templars. In order for the templars to win, a smart general would make connections to either smuggle lyrium or rejoin the chantry. Unfortunately, the templars as a whole don't seem very smart because the Chantry recruited them for religious zeal over moral standing and common sense. There will be good people, there will be smart people, but for the most part we have religious fanatics.

And since they have been part of the Chantry for so long, been viewed by the common people as holy defenders for so long, that any atrocity they need to commit to get their lyrium could easily be justified in the Maker's name so they can do his will.

Unless the templars can legally arrange new shipments of lyrium, we're going to see a butt load of insane and immoral travesties committed by them in the name of faith. So they'll have to appease the chantry or the common folk in order to convince them they are still righteous.

For the mages however, a smart general would raid the chantries to only destroy the phylacteries. With those gone, all the mages need to do is go undergound. Find a small, out of the way village and start a life there. Don't use magic openly and simply help the people out.

As more and more time passes, the templars will grow more and more desperate to hunt the mages. The longer they are separated from lyrium, the more desperate they will become to get it. It will only be a matter of time before public opinion turns against the templars.

The chantry will be forced to condemn the templars publicly or they'll be seen supporting a roaming band of thugs.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 09 août 2011 - 12:37 .


#24
TEWR

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Dave of Canada wrote...

Templar have military training, anti-magic training, largely equipped and extremely numerous with public support.

Mages have... magic training and that's pretty much it, they all have different goals and ways to see the situation too, so there's bound to be infighting (blood mages vs chantry loyalists vs ect).

Mages are screwed.



Ah but how many Templars will side with the mages? If Ferelden tells the Chantry to sod off and goes Church of England on them, I expect King Alistair to convince Gregoir and his Templars to work for the King in return for still being able to police mages. Gregoir seems to be a fair minded man who doesn't adhere to Chantry rules all the time (as he will try to arrest, and not kill, a blood mage Warden. Though that was cut, so whether it's canon for his personality is unknown.) he also tries to Tranquil Jowan, who was a blood mage. That he didn't kill him speaks a little bit about his personality.

Mages are not as screwed as one might think.

#25
dragonflight288

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I actually really want to see my irony scenario be used. That would be glorious.


yes that would be. In fact, that's actually why I played my first play through as a mage Hawke. After playing the demo, I found it just delicious that the chantry was seeking a mage for help.