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Templars vs. Mages


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#226
TEWR

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Except the Templars don't know for a fact that Orsino is a blood mage (and I got the impression he didn't actually practice it). I made up two explanations for Orsino that would've been nice if implemented, or in the case of the second one is an explanation I hope to see:

Basically my explanation deals with Orsino having an eidetic memory. He had been in contact with Quentin, but Quentin's reports were nothing too disturbing at first. They were thoroughly detailed and delivered to Orsino, from which point he would read them. Then, when Quentin told him about the Harvester he said "WTF" and after he was done reading it he put it down. But he'd keep going back to reading it just to make sure he wasn't imagining this gruesome report. Then, when The Last Straw comes around, he remembers the ritual down to every detail. Before that point, he wasn't a practicing blood mage, but he studied blood magic. Here, it explains how he could remember such a complex ritual.

Or Varric was embellishing on him going Harvestino, though Orsino still has an eidetic memory. And God do I hope he was embellishing on Orsino going Harvestino


My ways to rationalize it.

I will accept only the latter Bioware in an expansion for pro-mage people.

#227
Dave of Canada

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I assume Harvester Orsino is exaggerated by Varric, just like how Meredith flying around and having super powers is exaggerated. Some elements of both fights seem to lend credit to this (Example: Nate Howe, Zevran and other random NPCs suddenly come help Hawke fight Meredith... why?). Reality is probably they both attack and get cut down.

That is, unless we see Meredith's statue thingie show up later.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 12 août 2011 - 04:28 .


#228
Shadow Fox

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Except the Templars don't know for a fact that Orsino is a blood mage (and I got the impression he didn't actually practice it). I made up two explanations for Orsino that would've been nice if implemented, or in the case of the second one is an explanation I hope to see:

Basically my explanation deals with Orsino having an eidetic memory. He had been in contact with Quentin, but Quentin's reports were nothing too disturbing at first. They were thoroughly detailed and delivered to Orsino, from which point he would read them. Then, when Quentin told him about the Harvester he said "WTF" and after he was done reading it he put it down. But he'd keep going back to reading it just to make sure he wasn't imagining this gruesome report. Then, when The Last Straw comes around, he remembers the ritual down to every detail. Before that point, he wasn't a practicing blood mage, but he studied blood magic. Here, it explains how he could remember such a complex ritual.

Or Varric was embellishing on him going Harvestino, though Orsino still has an eidetic memory. And God do I hope he was embellishing on Orsino going Harvestino


My ways to rationalize it.

I will accept only the latter Bioware in an expansion for pro-mage people.

But here's my counter: why take the risk?He knows BM is a capital offense punishible by death and yet he doesn't care maybe that would be alright if it was just his neck on the choping block but it's not if the Templars find out he's using it they'll naturally assume that he's teaching it to the mages in the Circle hence they're ALL SCREWED.

#229
Shadow Fox

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Except the Templars don't know for a fact that Orsino is a blood mage (and I got the impression he didn't actually practice it). I made up two explanations for Orsino that would've been nice if implemented, or in the case of the second one is an explanation I hope to see:

Basically my explanation deals with Orsino having an eidetic memory. He had been in contact with Quentin, but Quentin's reports were nothing too disturbing at first. They were thoroughly detailed and delivered to Orsino, from which point he would read them. Then, when Quentin told him about the Harvester he said "WTF" and after he was done reading it he put it down. But he'd keep going back to reading it just to make sure he wasn't imagining this gruesome report. Then, when The Last Straw comes around, he remembers the ritual down to every detail. Before that point, he wasn't a practicing blood mage, but he studied blood magic. Here, it explains how he could remember such a complex ritual.

Or Varric was embellishing on him going Harvestino, though Orsino still has an eidetic memory. And God do I hope he was embellishing on Orsino going Harvestino


My ways to rationalize it.

I will accept only the latter Bioware in an expansion for pro-mage people.

If it also shows Meredith getting an annonomys tip about Orsino practiceing BM coulpled with idol induced insanity as an explanation for her erratic behavior then that'd be great fix most of the problems I had with Act 3.

#230
DKJaigen

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devSin wrote...

But Orsino was a criminal, even if secretly (he'd obviously kept abreast of Quentin's depravities, and wasn't totally against them in the first place).

Meredith was crazy, but Orsino was a blood mage. They both deserved to die in the end.

Meredith has much more going for her than Orsino. He's crazy by choice. She's poisoned by her dumb idol (it couldn't have happened to a nicer lady, but she still was under the influence of bad juju).


We have no knowledge what Orsino knew about Quentin's because we have no way to question him. We only know he provided information in the form of books and at point he cancelled the project because he found it immoral. We can condemn him for being a bloodmage but that doesnt justify killing him.

#231
miraclemight

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I don't know about Orsino, but if a fugitive mage asked me to smuggle necromancy books out of the Circle and give them to him, I would definitely put two and two together and say "no". And if you side with the Templars, Orsino says that he helped Quentin because he discovered what the insane mage was really doing and kept it quiet so Meredith wouldn't find out...

I don't consider blood magic inherently evil. But when a person is the First Enchanter of a circle, practicing it puts all the members of that community in danger. If their leader is one, how can they prove that the other mages aren't.

Also, in the only playthrough in which I sided with the Templars for science, I noticed that almost ALL the Enchanters were blood mages who quickly transformed into abominations (usually Prides) after being slain.

All that said, it still doesn't make Meredith's ooga booga annulment any better, but just wanted to say that there were plenty of mages that weren't exactly innocent.

Edited to remove typo.

Modifié par miraclemight, 12 août 2011 - 11:13 .


#232
LobselVith8

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miraclemight wrote...

I don't know about Orsino, but if a fugitive mage asked me to smuggle necromancy books out of the Circle and give them to him, I would definitely put two and two together and say "no". And if you side with the Templars, Orsino says that he helped Quentin because he discovered what the insane mage was really doing and kept it quiet so Meredith wouldn't find out...

I don't consider blood magic inherently evil. But when a person is the First Enchanter of a circle, practicing it puts all the members of that community in danger. If their leader is one, how can they prove that the other mages aren't.


Doesn't this assume that Orsino dealing with a Starkhaven Circle mage (if Gascard's note is correct) is supposed to make sense? I can't imagine why anyone would be interested in the creation of a 'super abomination.' It's as rational as Cullen handwaving Hawke's warning about Anders plotting against the Chantry when the ex-Grey Warden is standing right next to Hawke. Then again, I don't even see how Meredith would have known about the macguffin - I mean, the lyrium idol.

#233
Rifneno

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LobselVith8 wrote...

Then again, I don't even see how Meredith would have known about the macguffin - I mean, the lyrium idol.


Found out about black market that someone was selling a rare super lyrium.  Like any good templar, she bought the illegal lyrium and took it eagerly back to her case of straws.

#234
esper

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Rifneno wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Then again, I don't even see how Meredith would have known about the macguffin - I mean, the lyrium idol.


Found out about black market that someone was selling a rare super lyrium.  Like any good templar, she bought the illegal lyrium and took it eagerly back to her case of straws.


The first thing they learn in templar school is obviosuly that supicious red lyrium must be made into swords to be controlled, didn't you know that?

#235
Herr Uhl

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Rifneno wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Then again, I don't even see how Meredith would have known about the macguffin - I mean, the lyrium idol.


Found out about black market that someone was selling a rare super lyrium.  Like any good templar, she bought the illegal lyrium and took it eagerly back to her case of straws.


Maybe they check the market for suspicious items that may have magical abilities. She gets the idol and it starts doing the same mojo as it did to Bartrand.

#236
Rifneno

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esper wrote...

The first thing they learn in templar school is obviosuly that supicious red lyrium must be made into swords to be controlled, didn't you know that?


I thought the first thing they learn in templar school was to tell the apprentices to bite on their pillows so they don't wake up the ones in the next cell?

#237
esper

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Rifneno wrote...

esper wrote...

The first thing they learn in templar school is obviosuly that supicious red lyrium must be made into swords to be controlled, didn't you know that?


I thought the first thing they learn in templar school was to tell the apprentices to bite on their pillows so they don't wake up the ones in the next cell?


That is second year.

#238
miraclemight

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If you don't have Anders in your party or refuse to heal Bartrand, he starts saying that the idol wants to be worshipped. So I'm guessing when a single piece of it can sway someone as cool as Varric, that huge part would certainly do a lot with the mind of Meredith, even if the initial encounter is as short as a few minutes.

What I really want to know is why Varric didn't want to mention this to Cassandra. He lies to her once (rather poorly, I might add). But why hide that Meredith went more insane with an idol. It didn't make her actions any more acceptable, or Hawke more guilty.

#239
esper

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miraclemight wrote...

If you don't have Anders in your party or refuse to heal Bartrand, he starts saying that the idol wants to be worshipped. So I'm guessing when a single piece of it can sway someone as cool as Varric, that huge part would certainly do a lot with the mind of Meredith, even if the initial encounter is as short as a few minutes.

What I really want to know is why Varric didn't want to mention this to Cassandra. He lies to her once (rather poorly, I might add). But why hide that Meredith went more insane with an idol. It didn't make her actions any more acceptable, or Hawke more guilty.


Because after all Batrand was his brother and think that Varric just didn't want to tell about his insanity.

#240
Herr Uhl

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miraclemight wrote...

What I really want to know is why Varric didn't want to mention this to Cassandra. He lies to her once (rather poorly, I might add). But why hide that Meredith went more insane with an idol. It didn't make her actions any more acceptable, or Hawke more guilty.


Doesn't he mention it, in his own time?

Edit: If you're wondering about why he doesn't want to talk about Bartrand, it is family business.

Edit 2: That the idol was affecting Meredith became pretty obvious at the point which she started to command inanimate objects.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 12 août 2011 - 04:42 .


#241
Gervaise

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First run through I missed nearly all the notes and books in Quentin's lair because I thought how quickly I got there might make a difference on whether I saved mother or not, so scrabbling about on the floor looking at pieces of paper did not seem a top priority at the time.   So when Orsino "confessed" at the end, it did seem more like it was something he had found out from Quentin's research after his belongings had been handed in for examination.  Seemed sensible that the Templars would get the First Enchanter to examine stuff that they probably didn't fully understand, so I almost bought the excuse that he didn't want to tell Meredith because of the affect it would have.
Subsequent run throughs I made a point of collecting them all and that note clearly states "So glad to hear you've achieved the impossible", the impossible being able to create life out of death, and here is a further book to aid your research on the subject.   The book was about necromancy and clearly used by Quentin.  Orsino says later he thought it was too evil to use, so instead he sends it to his apostate friend.   That in itself was unforgiveable.  If he doesn't want it found on the premises, then burn the damn book, not send it out into the general populace and encourage the guy to use it by congratulating him on progress so far - I don't know, may be Quentin experimented initially with mice or cats before moving onto people.   May be that's why Anders couldn't find any.   And if you side with the Templars, with Bethany still alive and in the Circle, her reaction to the revelation that he was in contact with Quentin, confirms my own, "you could have stopped it".  Even if he couldn't have stopped it without implicating himself, he sure as hell didn't have to assist it by supplying research information.   Bear in mind that one of the mages from the Circle was the first to go missing and whilst Orsino might have assumed she just went apostate, he is still culpable in her murder as well as at least three other women.
Bethany, like my Hawke mage, was also utterly appalled that Orsino should have resorted to that magic no matter how desperate he felt.  With the Templar ending it is more understandable as everyone seems to have abandoned him, but with the Mage ending, it was just a big fat betrayal whether I was a mage or not.  At this point we are still keeping the mages alive and you never know, if we manage to take out Meredith, we may still salvage the situation and he does the one thing that will guarantee the Templars will show no mercy to any further mages that they find.    I didn't potentially sacrifice the life of myself and my friends for this - we were meant to be going down fighting to protect innocent mages.  If you want to give up, just go in a corner and self immolate, like the Qunari sarabas did, or better still self immolate while hugging Meredith.
One further point that strikes me about turning into an abomination - you promptly seem to lose all magical ability.  It happens with the lesser transformations and it is true of the Harvester - just the ability to summon a few corpses and splatter some nasty draining liquid but that's it.  If you are going to combine yourself into some uber monster, at least make sure that it endowes you with all the abilities of its individual parts - now that would be worthwhile - but just become some disgusting mindless blob - seriously!   Also, how come abominations no longer explode after you kill them?

#242
Rifneno

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Gervaise wrote...

And if you side with the Templars, with Bethany still alive and in the Circle, her reaction to the revelation that he was in contact with Quentin, confirms my own, "you could have stopped it".


I love how everyone likes to paint Orsino as a monster by quoting that while conveniently "forgetting" to mention that he said the reason he didn't turn Quentin in when he found out he was mad was because he thought Meredith would use it as justification to come down like a hammer on the Circle (and probably kill more people than Quentin).  And considering 1) he's the one who brought up his involvement with Quentin, meaning he has no reason to lie and 2) this is all happening in the middle of a genocide for an act the Circle didn't even commit, anyone who thinks he's not 100% correct is kidding themselves.

The only reason people care so much about Quentin is because Hawke's sorry excuse for a mother was one of his victims. Templars are out there torturing elven kids for information on Feynriel and murdering unarmed women for giving a starved & tortured family member a meal and a couch for one night, and Quentin gets brought up 25 times for every one of those. But I'm sure everyone who harps on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on about Quentin is looking at it objectively and not just focusing on who the victim was. Mmhmm.

#243
EmperorSahlertz

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Meanwhile mages are out there abducting and killing innocents, consorting with demons, planning rebellion and recreation of the Tevinter Imperium, and yet you focus on the Templars... See how that works both ways?

That Quintin do hold a larger focus, because he killed Hawkes mother, does not make his crimes any less monstrous. He is just a better "poster boy" for why mages should be controlled.

#244
Xilizhra

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Meanwhile mages are out there abducting and killing innocents, consorting with demons, planning rebellion and recreation of the Tevinter Imperium, and yet you focus on the Templars... See how that works both ways?

That Quintin do hold a larger focus, because he killed Hawkes mother, does not make his crimes any less monstrous. He is just a better "poster boy" for why mages should be controlled.

Remember that the templars are a single continent-wide organization that promotes and exults in atrocity, whereas all these mages are singular villains who happen to have personal power.

#245
Huntress

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Meanwhile mages are out there abducting and killing innocents, consorting with demons, planning rebellion and recreation of the Tevinter Imperium, and yet you focus on the Templars... See how that works both ways?

That Quintin do hold a larger focus, because he killed Hawkes mother, does not make his crimes any less monstrous. He is just a better "poster boy" for why mages should be controlled.


Oh wow, then we should castrate every maleNoble and magister of Kirkwall because of  what the magister order quest represent? Do you know what that quest represent good sir?
Rapist, murderers are protected by the chantry and many of them works for the chantry as templars. we should do something about that right? Make all templars female, so no more raping mages? yes?
You worry about a blood mage, while the Templars/magister's and magister's son's are stalking you're daughter or son  rofl.

Modifié par Huntress, 12 août 2011 - 06:06 .


#246
Ryzaki

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...The inability for some people to understand that there are good and bad on both sides is utterly astounding.

#247
Xilizhra

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Ryzaki wrote...

...The inability for some people to understand that there are good and bad on both sides is utterly astounding.

Mages as a whole aren't really a "side." If you mean that there are good and bad in the Libertarians/Resolutionists as well as the templars, then yes.

#248
hoorayforicecream

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Xilizhra wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

...The inability for some people to understand that there are good and bad on both sides is utterly astounding.

Mages as a whole aren't really a "side." If you mean that there are good and bad in the Libertarians/Resolutionists as well as the templars, then yes.


The mages are as much a "side" than the templars are a "side". The liberarians and resolutionists still answer to their First Enchanter. You might say that the American Army and Air Force aren't the same "side", but they still answer to the same people ultimately because they're all part of the American Armed Forces. 

#249
Xilizhra

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hoorayforicecream wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

...The inability for some people to understand that there are good and bad on both sides is utterly astounding.

Mages as a whole aren't really a "side." If you mean that there are good and bad in the Libertarians/Resolutionists as well as the templars, then yes.


The mages are as much a "side" than the templars are a "side". The liberarians and resolutionists still answer to their First Enchanter. You might say that the American Army and Air Force aren't the same "side", but they still answer to the same people ultimately because they're all part of the American Armed Forces. 

"Mages" encompasses more than just the Circle.

#250
CrimsonZephyr

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hoorayforicecream wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

...The inability for some people to understand that there are good and bad on both sides is utterly astounding.

Mages as a whole aren't really a "side." If you mean that there are good and bad in the Libertarians/Resolutionists as well as the templars, then yes.


The mages are as much a "side" than the templars are a "side". The liberarians and resolutionists still answer to their First Enchanter. You might say that the American Army and Air Force aren't the same "side", but they still answer to the same people ultimately because they're all part of the American Armed Forces. 


That's not a very good analogy. Fraternities are more like political factions, and their philosophies can be very different. They are all mages, but they think very differently. Aequitarians are all about great power coming with great responsibility and that mages should find common ground with templars and leaders. Libertarians are for mage freedom. Isolationists are for isolation. Lucrosians are for profit. The Loyalists do anything the Chantry orders. The Resolutionists are violently pro-Mage freedom. And then there are hedge mages, blood mages, and Tevinter magisters. None of these groups share a common viewpoint. The only thing that binds them is magic. Compare this to the Templar Order, which, despite having dissenters in the rank and file, is much more monolithic.