263 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Templar have military training, anti-magic training, largely equipped and extremely numerous with public support.

Mages have... magic training and that's pretty much it, they all have different goals and ways to see the situation too, so there's bound to be infighting (blood mages vs chantry loyalists vs ect). Maybe Tevinter if Tevinter steps up to defend them, though they probably don't care.

Mages are screwed.

If that were so, then there would be no story because there would be no dramatic tension.  As it is, I expect mages to get substantial support from other places and the Templars no longer have official Chantry support which is going to hurt esp when it comes to Lyrium.

In particular, I expect the nobility of many countries to either openly or covertly help the mages (in exchange for other favors).  In Fereldan we already know this is happening, and Fereldan is on the cusp of going "Church of England" on the Chantry (which may well take Fereldan's Templars out of the equation...at least on the side of the Templars....as well).

-Polaris

[Dave of Canada]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Ah but how many Templars will side with the mages?

I'd assume very little, simply because they tend to recruit only the most diehard Andrastians who know the Chant. We've seen Templar that had sympathy for the mages (Thrask) but they didn't exactly have mage freedom in their minds, Thrask was perfectly fine with trying to lock up Grace and the gang.

If Ferelden tells the Chantry to sod off and goes Church of England on them, I expect King Alistair to convince Gregoir and his Templars to work for the King in return for still being able to police mages.

Few problems:
Ferelden isn't exactly at it's strongest with the army being almost decimated after the Blight (I doubt the dwarves / golems, dalish elves / werewolves and whatever are interested in fighting the Chantry) and consisting mostly of soldiers who's beliefs might not meet those of King Alistair after being raised their entire lives by the Chantry.

I heavily doubt mages would want to work with Gregoir and the Templars if their reward is policing mages, I doubt they'd go through all that trouble to expect themselves to be policed again.

King Alistair isn't canon and I'd doubt Queen Anora has as much interest in mage / templar business, though maybe he'll try to pull it off if he's the King in said playthrough (if he is King). Though I doubt the entire mage war would rely on a choice made in DAO.

Gregoir seems to be a fair minded man who doesn't adhere to Chantry rules all the time (as he will try to arrest, and not kill, a blood mage Warden. Though that was cut, so whether it's canon for his personality is unknown.) he also tries to Tranquil Jowan, who was a blood mage. That he didn't kill him speaks a little bit about his personality.

It seems to vary from Templar to Templar on what to do with Blood Mages, some are made tranquil and some are outright executed. It isn't only for Gregoir. The Kirkwall Circle, which we've seen as being one of the worst Circles, has spared and accepted blood mages back into it's ranks. Including in Act 3, where one might question Meredith's methods.

[TEWR]

Few problems:
Ferelden isn't exactly at it's strongest with the army being almost decimated after the Blight (I doubt the dwarves / golems, dalish elves / werewolves and whatever are interested in fighting the Chantry) and consisting mostly of soldiers who's beliefs might not meet those of King Alistair after being raised their entire lives by the Chantry.

I heavily doubt mages would want to work with Gregoir and the Templars if their reward is policing mages, I doubt they'd go through all that trouble to expect themselves to be policed again.

King Alistair isn't canon and I'd doubt Queen Anora has as much interest in mage / templar business, though maybe he'll try to pull it off if he's the King in said playthrough (if he is King). Though I doubt the entire mage war would rely on a choice made in DAO.

Well, my idea was for Gregoir and his Templars to police mages, but mages can live a free life. Have Alistair reform the Circle system. Make it a boarding school, then when a mage graduates they can live a free life in a city or village with Templars present. Then they check in every now and then (if they're Andrastian, it could be done at a chantry. Which, if Alistair does go Church of England, may work. Keep the religion and the worship, get rid of the political influence the Chantry tries to have). And keep the phylacteries.

King Alistair may not be canon, but Queen Anora is pro-mage when a mage makes the US. Plus, Ferelden loves Alistair as their king. Aveline says that all of Ferelden rallied behind him.

Add into this that Orlais is trying to invade again (though supposedly Celene is intervening on Ferelden's behalf), and Alistair may want to start seriously thinking about going Church of England. With two Circles at his disposal, I'm sure he'd be able to stave off an invasion from Orlais. Remember that after Starkhaven burned down, the closest circle to Kirkwall's was Ferelden's.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 09 août 2011 - 01:14 .

[Sepewrath]

Well some things to consider is Templar's cant just hit the off button on magic, it doesn't work that way. They are mostly just more resilient to the effects of magic, like Dwarves. Yeah they can nullify, but I'm assuming only to an extent. I think the image of anti magic that the Chantry has created for the Templar's will be of greater use to them than their ability to actually be anti magic.

The Templar's are an army when organized under the Chantry, this collapse may have greatly weakened them as a force. Unless they managed to maintain ranks, they would have taken a big hit to their combat readiness. Then you have to factor in just to what extent is this lyrium dependence and is it actually the cause of their abilities. Without the Chantry, I cant imagine where they would be able to get a steady supply of Lyrium.

The only thing that could save the Templar's in a direct war against Mages, is if the mages have not gotten over the image of the Templar. If they have cast that aside, I wouldn't like the Templar's chances. Mages wouldn't even have to organize to beat them.

[Rifneno]

I think Orzammar will be the key to this. Or should be, as many people have mentioned in the past they can't write a bunch of different outcomes for this war while continuing the series. Anyway, who's put on the throne of Orzammar would make a huge difference. The templars might be screwed if it's Bhelen. He pisses on tradition and he's plain ruthless. If he allies with the mages, he's got the gratitude of an army of people that rain hellfire and brimstone on the darkspawn. He already pissed off his own people by giving rights to the casteless so he could use them against the darkspawn, to great success I might add. I'm sure he'd be willing to ****** off a now disarmed Chantry. What are they gonna do, exalted march with the 3 templars who haven't disbanded? Pfft. Oh, and best of all, Orzammar is the ones mining the lyrium! Squabble all you want about whether templars need lyrium to do templar stuff, but the fact is all the current ones are totally addicted, which means they'll die a horrible death if the Orzammar throne decrees it so by stopping lyrium trade with the surface. It also works in reverse, meaning the templars are at a massive advantage if Orzammar sides with them... I just don't see why they would. Bhelen gets nothing out of it really and Harrowmont is unlikely to side with either of them because his great great great great great grandfather didn't. Oh, and there's always that religious tension between the dwarves and the Chantry. By which I mean, the dwarves are a bit leery the Orlesian bastards will come and convert them by way of sword. I see tons of reasons for the dwarves to side with the mages, and very few to side with the templars.

Either way, I definitely think Orzammar is by far the most powerful card in the deck left to be dealt. Oh, and before anyone mentions Kal-Sharok, they have no surface access (meaning you'd have to go way into the Deep Roads) and they're a small reclusive thaig. Who knows if they even actively mine lyrium?

[Herr Uhl]

Considering how Biowware tend to make their games, it'll be evenly matched sides and your character will act as the little droplet that could.

As to who that will go to where, civilians - chantry, countries will probably try to stop both sides, Dalish (well, they might harbor the elven apostates and keep their current position on templars) Qunari and Wardens uninvolved.

If it comes to a full conflict where those are the two sides that is.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 09 août 2011 - 01:43 .

[TEWR]

And if you kept the Anvil.....


let's just say Golems will be squishing a different type of head instead of a mage one. There's also what's happening in Asunder. Somehow, I'm wondering if David Gaider is actually gearing up to make it so the mages do win. Templars are dying left and right in Asunder.

[Sepewrath]

I would imagine that Orzammar wouldn't side with either, regardless of who is on the throne. I think they would just sit back and watch to see whose left, because if you pick a side, your obligated to make sure they win. You side with the mages and they lose anyway, the Chantry is kicking down the doors to Orzammar.

You side the Templar's and they lose, you have to deal with people raining down hellfire and brimstone. The lyrium trade alone wouldn't decide the outcome of this battle, mages unrestrained could use blood magic, old forgotten spells etc. And its doubtful that the Templar abilities come from lyrium, if they could control themselves and came up with one hell of a battle strategy they could pull out an unlikely victory.

[Rifneno]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Considering how Biowware tend to make their games, it'll be evenly matched sides and your character will act as the little droplet that could.

Sadly, I'm sure you're right.  I don't know why the paths have to be even difficulty, but I'm sure they will be.  Again.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

let's just say Golems will be squishing a different type of head instead of a mage one. There's also what's happening in Asunder. Somehow, I'm wondering if David Gaider is actually gearing up to make it so the mages do win. Templars are dying left and right in Asunder.

Huh? I thought Asunder wasn't released for a while yet?

Sepewrath wrote...

And its doubtful that the Templar abilities come from lyrium, if they could control themselves and came up with one hell of a battle strategy they could pull out an unlikely victory.

Oh damn, you got me there. Gee, I wish I had specifically addressed this by pointing out all the current templars are already addicted so it doesn't matter.

[KotorEffect3]

Sepewrath wrote...

I would imagine that Orzammar wouldn't side with either, regardless of who is on the throne. I think they would just sit back and watch to see whose left, because if you pick a side, your obligated to make sure they win. You side with the mages and they lose anyway, the Chantry is kicking down the doors to Orzammar.

You side the Templar's and they lose, you have to deal with people raining down hellfire and brimstone. The lyrium trade alone wouldn't decide the outcome of this battle, mages unrestrained could use blood magic, old forgotten spells etc. And its doubtful that the Templar abilities come from lyrium, if they could control themselves and came up with one hell of a battle strategy they could pull out an unlikely victory.

The Chantry can try but Orzammar is fortified as hell and dwarves don't go down easily.  They have been hardened by constant war with the darkspawn for centuries.

[DPSSOC]

Rifneno wrote...
It also works in reverse, meaning the templars are at a massive advantage if Orzammar sides with them... I just don't see why they would.

More demand for what they supply?  Lyrium is useful to mages but Templars (current Templars anyway) need the stuff.  You can sell a bottle of water for a lot more to a man dying of thirst than you can someone who's merely thirsty.  Obviously with limitations you are dealing with armed fanatics so you can't gouge them too hard.  Also properly manouvered Orzamar could end up placing itself in the Chantry's old position (controlling Templars by virtue of being their only dealer).

[dragonflight288]

That sounds like something Bhelen would do.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And if you kept the Anvil.....


let's just say Golems will be squishing a different type of head instead of a mage one. There's also what's happening in Asunder. Somehow, I'm wondering if David Gaider is actually gearing up to make it so the mages do win. Templars are dying left and right in Asunder.

Asunder havn't been released yet to my knowledge, so you don't know what is killing the Templars. And why on flying earth wouldn't the Golems be killing the mages? The Templars are the Dwarves' biggest customers, it is far more likely they will support the Templars, or remain neutral, than ever helping the mages (which can offer the Dwarves very little). The most likely outcome is that the Dwarves remain neutral, since they have far more to gain by staying out of the fighting, than if they actually joined it.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 09 août 2011 - 03:19 .

[DPSSOC]

Yeah I'm thinking neutral Dwarves selling Lyrium to both sides.

[dragonflight288]

Thorin Aeducan, if Orzammar had a Circle of Magi at that time, would open Orzammar to apostates where they would have safe shelter from the templars on the condition they fought the darkspawn with the warrior caste. And not even attempt converting any dwarf to the chantry.

[Ryzaki]

DPSSOC wrote...

Yeah I'm thinking neutral Dwarves selling Lyrium to both sides.

Yup. Make the most money that way. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

... Who the hell is Thorin Aeducan?

[dragonflight288]

My warden. You can see him in the avatar. I'm in the middle of writing a fanfiction of him on fanfiction.net called Aeducan Memories.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Ah, okay.. Well, I can't really argue against that, but lets at least keep to the common ground, and debate using what is established in the universal lore.

[dragonflight288]

No problem. The only point I was making (probably to myself) was that Orzammar has a lot of options in this war.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Indeed it does. The most lucrative of which, would be to remain neutral.

[dragonflight288]

That's true.

Personally I would like to see the mage/templar war in Rivain where they have the Seers who allow themselves to be possessed. Or Nevarra where they had managed to repel Orlais, even if they did accept the Chantry. Their cultural beliefs on magic are currently unknown.

[Shadow Fox]

Ryzaki wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Yeah I'm thinking neutral Dwarves selling Lyrium to both sides.

Yup. Make the most money that way. 

Yuo play both sides for the most cash.

[London]

I don't see Orzammar being key in this war; they are having enough of their own survival problems with having less and less dwarves by the year as the darkspawn continue to claim victims faster than they can repopulate; they are already mourning being under-staffed and being preoccupied with keeping the darkspawn out of what little space they have left. Interceding in a brutal war is not to their advantage in any wya.

[dragonflight288]

Unless Bhelen is on the throne. Then they are retaking territories because he isn't sticking to suicidal traditions.