263 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

Rifneno wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Dwarves are kind of still slowly being driven towards extinction by an endless unwinnable millennium long war with the darkspawn. Even if they regain some territory under Bhelen, that fact is still the defining inescapable fact of their existence, the very last thing they need to get involved in is a costly and messy surface war.

I can't get over how everyone that says the dwarves wouldn't want to get involved (under Bhelen anyway) chooses to ignore the fact that a) mages are an incredibly asset when fighting mindless hordes of darkspawn, all the dwarves need to do to beat the templars is shut their gate for a week and wait for them to go into withdrawal of the substance they're totally reliant on dwarven miners for.

 The Circles probably already have motnhs, ore ven years, worth of lyrium supplies, to be sued for either Templars or mage studies. The Templars are probably going to get a hold of these supplies, since the mages aren't (sadly) suicidal enoughto try and hold the Circle Towers.

[Ryzaki]

not to mention they'll always be lyrium smugglers.

[DPSSOC]

Rifneno wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

More demand for what they supply? Lyrium is useful to mages but Templars (current Templars anyway) need the stuff. You can sell a bottle of water for a lot more to a man dying of thirst than you can someone who's merely thirsty. Obviously with limitations you are dealing with armed fanatics so you can't gouge them too hard. Also properly manouvered Orzamar could end up placing itself in the Chantry's old position (controlling Templars by virtue of being their only dealer).

That's true... but I think getting a an extremely powerful new weapon in their constant war on the darkspawn would be considerably more valuable to them than some gold.

I'd probably agree mages are the better ally to have but they are harder to control.  As I said having control of something someone needs puts you in a better bargaining position than something they simply want.  The Dwarves can control the Templars (to a degree) through lyrium supply, they have no similar bargaining chip with the mages.  So it's possible the Dwarves could decide that the less effective, but more easily controlled, ally which also comes with a greater economic benefit (potentially) is the better choice.  There are fine reasons for the Dwarves to side with either or neither and I'm actually really interested to see how it pans out.

[LobselVith8]

Rifneno wrote...

I can't get over how everyone that says the dwarves wouldn't want to get involved (under Bhelen anyway) chooses to ignore the fact that a) mages are an incredibly asset when fighting mindless hordes of darkspawn, all the dwarves need to do to beat the templars is shut their gate for a week and wait for them to go into withdrawal of the substance they're totally reliant on dwarven miners for.

Ideally, the dwarves would recognize how valuable mages could be against the darkspawn, but I don't see it happening in canon. One could argue The Warden from the Circle of Ferelden already showcased this to the dwarven people in one of the last Great Thaigs remaining in the Deep Roads, but I don't see TPTB addressing this as a real possibility given their current trend.

[Ryzaki]

The dwarves can't even acknowledge that the casteless warriors could be useful against the darkspawn.  Bhelen was the only (or one of the few) that realized. Hey! Maybe more bodies are more important than caste!

Mages? That's a far shot.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 10 août 2011 - 03:58 .

[DPSSOC]

They'd just create the new Mage caste, which would last until they had a mage give birth to a non-mage child. This brings the caste system crashing down and Dwarven society is destroyed. On review I fully support this initiative.

[Sharn01]

Illydoor wrote...

- How effective are Templars at combating mages? If we look at their abilities, they should technically be able to nullify mages completely, perhaps making it a one-sided fight. It seems demons and abominations are the Templars' greatest threat.
 

I am actually clueless as to how bioware is going to continue portraying mages.  In DA:O mages where considered dangerous even by templars, in dialogue during the game you are told that the templars hunt mages in groups because all mages are dangerous and even the best templars cant take on a powerful mage alone.  Mages where known to be so strong that there where dialogue options where just saying you where a mage would cause your opponent to back down.

Then in DA2 we get a couple dozen mages cowering in a cave because one Templar is standing outside waiting for the whopping three individuals coming as reinforcements, and there is not a single time in the game where anyone even thinks twice about taking on a mage.

[Ryzaki]

I kind of just took that as Kirkwall's templars being especially skilled.

[Melca36]

Recon64bit wrote...

 Mages are too dangerous to be alive. Genophage for mages a necessity. Not murder. Save lives.

That is totally ridiculous and insane.    <_<

Who are you going to get to heal people? Theres a shortage of physicians.

[Rifneno]

Recon64bit wrote...

 Mages are too dangerous to be alive. Genophage for mages a necessity. Not murder. Save lives.

Hahaha.  I almost didn't get it until I saw the Mordin avatar.  Bravo.  

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

 The Circles probably already have motnhs, ore ven years, worth of lyrium supplies, to be sued for either Templars or mage studies. The Templars are probably going to get a hold of these supplies, since the mages aren't (sadly) suicidal enoughto try and hold the Circle Towers.

No way.  Doesn't work like that.  The mages if they have any sense at all (and we have to assume that they do), will simply destroy the lyrium they can not take.

-Polaris

[Rifneno]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

 The Circles probably already have motnhs, ore ven years, worth of lyrium supplies, to be sued for either Templars or mage studies. The Templars are probably going to get a hold of these supplies, since the mages aren't (sadly) suicidal enoughto try and hold the Circle Towers.

No way.  Doesn't work like that.  The mages if they have any sense at all (and we have to assume that they do), will simply destroy the lyrium they can not take.

-Polaris

You'd have better luck shooting a BB gun at Superman than making a logical case with Emp.

[Erani]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

 The Circles probably already have motnhs, ore ven years, worth of lyrium supplies, to be sued for either Templars or mage studies. The Templars are probably going to get a hold of these supplies, since the mages aren't (sadly) suicidal enoughto try and hold the Circle Towers.

No way.  Doesn't work like that.  The mages if they have any sense at all (and we have to assume that they do), will simply destroy the lyrium they can not take.

-Polaris

Hellz yezz Polaris. How does one destroy/contaminate lyrium? There must be a way. Mages need to wise up! 

Edit: Actually, thinking about this...Alistair must be right about lyrium not having much an effect on Templar powers. The Chantry is only using it to control the Templars, keep them meek (probably even makes brainwashing easier). After the Mages of Thedas broke free from imprisonment, the Templars must have realized this and could be one reason they decided to go on their own. They probably did not in fact have any lyrium but realized their powers were still okay, and so they discovered the Chantry's manipulation and went separate.

Modifié par Erani, 10 août 2011 - 06:04 .

[TEWR]

I imagine magic could destroy lyrium. Or if all of it's been distilled into a potion already, dump it.

[Rifneno]

Erani wrote...

Hellz yezz Polaris. How does one destroy/contaminate lyrium? There must be a way. Mages need to wise up! 

Most lyrium is in the form of dust.  Drug dealers, apparently not satisfied with the paltry evil of what they're already doing, often decide to step it up a notch by contaminating their goods with something cheap and of similar color, like laundry detergent.  Drug addicts, not being the smartest folk around, rarely notice until they're dead.  Which they probably should be expecting to happen anyway, but that's another story.  Mages would only have to do something like that to contaminate lyrium.

Or they could trap the soul of an ancient malevolent force into the lyrium.  Apparently that works too.  Where there's a will, there's a Frostmourne/Lightsabre lovechild.  No wait, that's not how that saying goes.  Oh well.

[IanPolaris]

Rifneno wrote...

Erani wrote...

Hellz yezz Polaris. How does one destroy/contaminate lyrium? There must be a way. Mages need to wise up! 

Most lyrium is in the form of dust.  Drug dealers, apparently not satisfied with the paltry evil of what they're already doing, often decide to step it up a notch by contaminating their goods with something cheap and of similar color, like laundry detergent.  Drug addicts, not being the smartest folk around, rarely notice until they're dead.  Which they probably should be expecting to happen anyway, but that's another story.  Mages would only have to do something like that to contaminate lyrium.

Or they could trap the soul of an ancient malevolent force into the lyrium.  Apparently that works too.  Where there's a will, there's a Frostmourne/Lightsabre lovechild.  No wait, that's not how that saying goes.  Oh well.

....and as Dworkin proves (repeatedly) in DAA, Lyrium dust blows up reeeal good......  Getting rid of lyrium is not a problem.  Doing so while keeping the tower intact might be...but if the mages decided they couldn't hold the towers anyway, then destroying the Lyrium would be a real good way to deny them to the templars as well (as well as denying the lyrium).

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

 The Circles probably already have motnhs, ore ven years, worth of lyrium supplies, to be sued for either Templars or mage studies. The Templars are probably going to get a hold of these supplies, since the mages aren't (sadly) suicidal enoughto try and hold the Circle Towers.

No way.  Doesn't work like that.  The mages if they have any sense at all (and we have to assume that they do), will simply destroy the lyrium they can not take.

-Polaris

Possibly, if you actually think they could even hold a tower, or get a chance to destroy the lyrium supplies. Or if yirum is even "destroyable". I find it more likely that the mages flee all the towers as quickly as possible.

[LobselVith8]

It's specifically said the Chantry controls the lyrium supply that the templars use. Unless the developers are going to provide yet another recton, the templars only have access to what the Chantry provided to them at the time. As the Lyrium codex addresses:

"The dwarves sell very little of the processed mineral to the surface, giving the greater portion of what they mine to their own smiths, who use it in the forging of all truly superior dwarven weapons and armor. What processed lyrium is sold on the surface goes only to the Chantry, who strictly control the supply."

[Ryzaki]

Yes but boatloads of lyrium are sent to the towers (if you bother talking to the dockmaster in...act 1? Or 2? One of those) he mentions "what am I gonna do with a boat filled with lyrium? Dump it in the Vicount's office?

So I assume they get it in bulk. Enough bulk should last them until they get a trade agreement with the dwarves.

[LobselVith8]

Ryzaki wrote...

Yes but boatloads of lyrium are sent to the towers (if you bother talking to the dockmaster in...act 1? Or 2? One of those) he mentions "what am I gonna do with a boat filled with lyrium? Dump it in the Vicount's office?

So I assume they get it in bulk. Enough bulk should last them until they get a trade agreement with the dwarves.

Unless they handle lyrium like Tony Montana handles the yayo.

[Ryzaki]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Unless they handle lyrium like Tony Montana handles the yayo.

Well...yeah that won't end well. 

[Rifneno]

Ryzaki wrote...

Yes but boatloads of lyrium are sent to the towers (if you bother talking to the dockmaster in...act 1? Or 2? One of those) he mentions "what am I gonna do with a boat filled with lyrium? Dump it in the Vicount's office?

So I assume they get it in bulk. Enough bulk should last them until they get a trade agreement with the dwarves.

It's already been what, 3 years I think? That reserve is unlikely to have held off THAT long. It's not a given that the dwarves would give the rogue templars a trade agreement. Even if they did, how are the templars paying for it without the Chantry financing everything? Lyrium is expensive as hell, going for more than diamonds in some parts of Thedas.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Possibly, if you actually think they could even hold a tower, or get a chance to destroy the lyrium supplies. Or if yirum is even "destroyable". I find it more likely that the mages flee all the towers as quickly as possible.

Absolutely.  In fact we know that the mages HAD to have taken physical control of the tower at least temporarily or else there wouldn't have been any revolution at all.  Merely thirteen more annulments but we are told very clearly that the Chantry has lost control of ALL the circles.

That means that Templars lost control (for at least a while) of ALL the circle towers.  Of these, I strongly suspect that only in Fereldan is it basically business as usual with new restrictions on a newly nationalized "Fereldan Templar Core" with Alistair as Head of the Fereldan Chantry and with Mages in overall charge of the tower.

As for the rest, you damn well better believe that the mages would destroy everything possible if they didn't think they'd be able to hold the tower buildings.  That's just common sense, and lyrium (at least lyrium dust which is what we're talking about here) is not can be destroyed but is actually EXPLOSIVE (from Canon per DAA).

So yes, I think the Templars are up a brown creek without a paddle if they expect to get ANY lyrium from the mage's towers other than a very token amount.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 10 août 2011 - 04:11 .

[Out to Lunch]

It seems like at this point in the story the Templars running loose are a bigger threat than the mages. Cullen says Templars have dominion over mages by divine right, can't imgine how far they will be willing to go to deal with the apostates now. Especially when it comes to the lyrium issue.