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[Jedi Master of Orion]

Given Bioware's aim for having moral ambiguity and gray areas, I'm quite sure that this conflict will not turn out to be as simple as the evil templars vs the heroic rebel mages or vice versa. The mages are desperate and a number of them are sure to resort to blood magic, demon summoning and probably other unsavory tactics that will become a danger to Thedas general population, much of which will probably be already unsympathetic. The templars are fanatical and possibly desperate for lyrium, and (depending on the individuals involved) likely wouldn't hesitate to justify any number of crimes if it brings them closer to their objectives. On the other hand both sides are certain to have more noble individuals in their ranks as well, so what direction the war will take exactly is hard to predict.

[Rifneno]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Given Bioware's aim for having moral ambiguity and gray areas, I'm quite sure that this conflict will not turn out to be as simple as the evil templars vs the heroic rebel mages or vice versa.

I can't speak for the other pro-mage posters, but personally I've never felt saying it's not a gray area meant that the mages are innocent.  Rather, that it's a black and gray issue.  Mages aren't inherent good or bad, like any other group of people.  But taking away basic rights from people because you're scared they might do something (oh, and because your absentee deity told you to, but not in those words)... that's just plain bad.

The mages are desperate and a number of them are sure to resort to blood magic, demon summoning and probably other unsavory tactics that will become a danger to Thedas general population, much of which will probably be already unsympathetic. The templars are fanatical and possibly desperate for lyrium, and (depending on the individuals involved) likely wouldn't hesitate to justify any number of crimes if it brings them closer to their objectives. On the other hand both sides are certain to have more noble individuals in their ranks as well, so what direction the war will take exactly is hard to predict.

 A fair assessment.  That'd be interesting to see.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I can't imagine most nations in the world are eager to jump into what promises to be a long and destructive conflict if it doesn't necessarily involve them. The Dalish might not be fond of templars but even if they were gone it wouldn't change their overall situation or their mutual antipathy towards humanity as a whole. If they make a point of protecting all the elf mages who flee to them, then maybe they'd become drawn in but I don't see them being all that willing to fight a major war that doesn't exactly directly relate to them much.

Since Nevarra is a Chantry country I don't see why their Circle would be fundamentally different from any of the other Andrastian nations. Being a political enemy of Orlais wouldn't mean they'd have radically different doctrine or practices. Ferelden was also an enemy of Orlais, and that has little to do with how they treat mages. I also don't know that Ferelden is ready to declare independence from the Chantry yet either. Just because Allister is sympathetic to escaped mages and Greigor is relatively lenient for a Knight-Commander doesn't mean that Ferelden is a "Pro-mage" country. The general populace never seemed any more fond of mages than anywhere else. Remember those gossips you found everywhere? But even if they did, what difference would that make? It's not the whole Chantry vs rebel mages, it's rebel templars vs rebel mages.

Rivain has a Circle of Magi and presumably some Chantry presence so I would suspect what happened to that circle would be the same as everywhere else. The Rivaini seers would probably only get involved if the renegade circle mages were given asylum or something. But again, I have to think they'd be reluctant to get involved in somebody else's conflict.

I don't believe that Rivain has a cirlce to be honest.  Rivain is a country with great Qunari influence (read the codex on the peace accords that you pick up in the Viscount Office).  They would not side with the Chantry over the mage/templar war.  I think Rivain is the toss up country, not Antiva.  Zevran informed Alistair to a degree that he did have religious instruction and prayed for forgiveness when he had the chance.  So Antiva is influenced by the Chantry.  Look how the Qunari treat mages.  I see Rivain with Qunari influence siding with Templars. 

I differ from you in opinion because I do believe that each country will have to choose sides.  There are to many countries with chantries in them and that the Divine has influence over.  This mage/templar war will affect every race and culture to some degree.  It will go through each country like a tidal wave.  This war will also affect Qunari and the Imperium.  We also don't know how many circles there are in the Imperium itself.  They are the black chantry also.  They are blood mages.

Some mages will also flee to Trevinter if they believe in the use of blood magic.  Those who don't,  I see them fleeing to Rivain and Ferelden. 

Orlais will side with the Templars, beside Kirkwall this is the largest area for Templars.   The chantry was formed years ago in Orlais.

Mages themselves also use lyrium.  Orzammar with Behlen on the throne will become rich beyond their wildest dreams playing both ends against the middle.   Getting this rich I can also see Kings like Behlen if the darkspawn are held in check for awhile, them doing raids on the surface to increase their holdings for surface dwarves. 

It's clear to me where Wardens are concerned and the Chantry they will also be at each other's throat.  With what happened regarding the Grey Warden prison in Kirkwall, this clearly shows that the Chantry is investigating the wardens. 

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 10 août 2011 - 05:54 .

[LobselVith8]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Given Bioware's aim for having moral ambiguity and gray areas, I'm quite sure that this conflict will not turn out to be as simple as the evil templars vs the heroic rebel mages or vice versa.

Like the moral ambiguity in Legacy, where Anders' acted as Gaider's mouthpiece for the Chantry POV? Or in the main game of Dragon Age 2, where all the mage antagonists were insane and stupid, where we were forced to see Meredith's POV but not Orsino's? Even Gaider dismissed the idea that the mages were innocent of Anders' actions in destroying the Kirkwall Chantry:

David Gaider wrote...

"Innocent" in this case being the mages of the Circle, yes.

Who are innocent in the manner of, say, a kitten that CAN EXPLODE IN YOUR FACE AND TAKE OUT AN ENTIRE CITY BLOCK IF YOU TOUCH IT... and might also bite your nose just because. But relatively innocent nonetheless.

I don't think there's going to be any real effort to have any moral ambiguity in the coming war between the templars and the mages. Ironically, Dragon Age: Origins did a much better job, with it's depiction of sane Circle mages, the tormented blood mage who simply wanted to be free from templar control, and templars like Ser Bryant and Ser Otto. Given the trend that I see now, I expect the war to be as asinine as it was in Dragon Age 2... because mages are really kittens that explode in your face, after all.

[TEWR]

Honestly the people at Bioware are fools if they think they can force people to side with a faction by portraying the other faction in a poor light.

[esper]

Rifneno wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Given Bioware's aim for having moral ambiguity and gray areas, I'm quite sure that this conflict will not turn out to be as simple as the evil templars vs the heroic rebel mages or vice versa.

I can't speak for the other pro-mage posters, but personally I've never felt saying it's not a gray area meant that the mages are innocent.  Rather, that it's a black and gray issue.  Mages aren't inherent good or bad, like any other group of people.  But taking away basic rights from people because you're scared they might do something (oh, and because your absentee deity told you to, but not in those words)... that's just plain bad.

The mages are desperate and a number of them are sure to resort to blood magic, demon summoning and probably other unsavory tactics that will become a danger to Thedas general population, much of which will probably be already unsympathetic. The templars are fanatical and possibly desperate for lyrium, and (depending on the individuals involved) likely wouldn't hesitate to justify any number of crimes if it brings them closer to their objectives. On the other hand both sides are certain to have more noble individuals in their ranks as well, so what direction the war will take exactly is hard to predict.

 A fair assessment.  That'd be interesting to see.

What I don't get is why people think it is going to be an all out war. There were 14 circles or something which means that there are 14 groups of mages and templars. It is not a modern world they can't cummonicate via computer to fastly get a union message through. I think that it is going to be more a guriella (is that how it is spelled in english) like war with small cells of mages and templars fighting each other - and of course both sides are going to do horrible things.

I think that the war is going to be a part of the background struggle in DA3, not the main focus. And quite frankly I don't see how the war between the mages and the templars are going to be resolved in the Dragon Age. It is a war based on a 1000 years oppression and prejudices they are not going to agree on that any time some.  It is a war that ulimately only will have loosers - with the expedtion of the contries that are going to take the chance to steal control from the Chantry. 

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Honestly the people at Bioware are fools if they think they can force people to side with a faction by portraying the other faction in a poor light.

You have too much faith in people.  A lot of people WERE swayed by it.  A lot of people actually sided with the templars just because of Leandra.  I've seen them say it.  "The mages aren't innocent!  One of them killed Hawke's mother!"  I can only take comfort in knowing none of these people will have nuclear launch codes.

[esper]

Rifneno wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Honestly the people at Bioware are fools if they think they can force people to side with a faction by portraying the other faction in a poor light.

You have too much faith in people.  A lot of people WERE swayed by it.  A lot of people actually sided with the templars just because of Leandra.  I've seen them say it.  "The mages aren't innocent!  One of them killed Hawke's mother!"  I can only take comfort in knowing none of these people will have nuclear launch codes.

This is so sad. The thing I found much interesting about Quentin was the way he twisted the over-used 'love is the strongest force in the universe' phrase. It totally made me go. See love can't cure all - And you will pay for Leandra. It certainly didn't change my view on mages. Quentin was one lunatic. I don't think that all templars are Alrik and Kerras. I think that the templar system allowed for people like Alrik and Kerras to get to much power and that templars are people who have willignly chosen to be jail keepers of person's who have yet to commit a crime. That is my problem with the templars.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

@esper

You do understand that Dragon Age is based on medival times and culture. You also have to have a certain knowledge how militaries work. Each opposing army will have their leaders and messengers. Word will travel in various ways.

Leliana in DA2 is a prime example of this with the use of spies. I always believed that she was a spy when tagging along with the warden placed there by the chantry. Given her position as being the Divine's right hand that has played out Even Alistair and Morrigan both realized this by their wise cracks. Crows and bards are spies. Ships will bring word on what is going on in other countries along with small cities, towns, and small villages being on the borders where countries share borders. Orlai and Ferelden are just an example of countries sharing a border. People will be fleeing for their lives with templars going through lyrium withdraw and wacky blood mages on the loose.

I do agree the mage/templar war will most likely be background noise in DA3.

[esper]

@ElvaliaRavenhart. Yeah but unless spies can teleport I don't see how the get the message through to unite all the mages and all the templars under one army. I does take weeks too travel in a mediaval world after all.
Also the mages a a to different group to unite under one person. Can you see resolutionists and chantry-apologists (don't remember the real name for them) accepting the same leader and working from the same tactic? I think that the mages will largely unite under the fratinities with smaller cells because you can only hide that many mages in one place, and the templar will properly continue the knight-commander system thinking that they are one army, with a central control somewhere but the different knight-commanders not really knowing what the other are doing before it is too late because they just can't move that fast.

I don't think the Crow accept spies job actually, not outside Antiva. And Leliana did not impress me. She got the totally wrong idea, I honestely thought she was a better spy than that. The problem with the mouth to mouth metod the spies uses is that the information takes so long on being passed from one end of Thedas to another that it can be falificed a million time before it reaches it destination. The impression Cassandra got of the Champion is prove of that.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Given Bioware's aim for having moral ambiguity and gray areas, I'm quite sure that this conflict will not turn out to be as simple as the evil templars vs the heroic rebel mages or vice versa.

Like the moral ambiguity in Legacy, where Anders' acted as Gaider's mouthpiece for the Chantry POV? Or in the main game of Dragon Age 2, where all the mage antagonists were insane and stupid, where we were forced to see Meredith's POV but not Orsino's? Even Gaider dismissed the idea that the mages were innocent of Anders' actions in destroying the Kirkwall Chantry:

David Gaider wrote...

"Innocent" in this case being the mages of the Circle, yes.

Who are innocent in the manner of, say, a kitten that CAN EXPLODE IN YOUR FACE AND TAKE OUT AN ENTIRE CITY BLOCK IF YOU TOUCH IT... and might also bite your nose just because. But relatively innocent nonetheless.

I don't think there's going to be any real effort to have any moral ambiguity in the coming war between the templars and the mages. Ironically, Dragon Age: Origins did a much better job, with it's depiction of sane Circle mages, the tormented blood mage who simply wanted to be free from templar control, and templars like Ser Bryant and Ser Otto. Given the trend that I see now, I expect the war to be as asinine as it was in Dragon Age 2... because mages are really kittens that explode in your face, after all.

I've already talked about why Anders reaction doesn't make sense for a number of reasons.

The templars and mages were both portrayed as insane and stupid in Dragon Age 2. Saying we only saw one side of the story doesn't make any senes to me. Considering how people talk about how evil the templars are in the second game, it doesn't stike me as fair to say it's only unfarily portraying mages in a negative light.

Also I never really interrepated Gaider's words as that the mages were as guilty as Anders was when he blew up the Chantry, just that they were "guilty" of being very dangerous; even if it was through no fault of their own they could still end up causing an act of destruction like Anders did.

[esper]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Given Bioware's aim for having moral ambiguity and gray areas, I'm quite sure that this conflict will not turn out to be as simple as the evil templars vs the heroic rebel mages or vice versa.

Like the moral ambiguity in Legacy, where Anders' acted as Gaider's mouthpiece for the Chantry POV? Or in the main game of Dragon Age 2, where all the mage antagonists were insane and stupid, where we were forced to see Meredith's POV but not Orsino's? Even Gaider dismissed the idea that the mages were innocent of Anders' actions in destroying the Kirkwall Chantry:

David Gaider wrote...

"Innocent" in this case being the mages of the Circle, yes.

Who are innocent in the manner of, say, a kitten that CAN EXPLODE IN YOUR FACE AND TAKE OUT AN ENTIRE CITY BLOCK IF YOU TOUCH IT... and might also bite your nose just because. But relatively innocent nonetheless.

I don't think there's going to be any real effort to have any moral ambiguity in the coming war between the templars and the mages. Ironically, Dragon Age: Origins did a much better job, with it's depiction of sane Circle mages, the tormented blood mage who simply wanted to be free from templar control, and templars like Ser Bryant and Ser Otto. Given the trend that I see now, I expect the war to be as asinine as it was in Dragon Age 2... because mages are really kittens that explode in your face, after all.

I've already talked about why Anders reaction doesn't make sense for a number of reasons.

The templars and mages were both portrayed as insane and stupid in Dragon Age 2. Saying we only saw one side of the story doesn't make any senes to me. Considering how people talk about how evil the templars are in the second game, it doesn't stike me as fair to say it's only unfarily portraying mages in a negative light.

Also I never really interrepated Gaider's words as that the mages were as guilty as Anders was when he blew up the Chantry, just that they were "guilty" of being very dangerous; even if it was through no fault of their own they could still end up causing an act of destruction like Anders did.

Where in legacy doesn't Anders makes sense?

[LobselVith8]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I've already talked about why Anders reaction doesn't make sense for a number of reasons.

The templars and mages were both portrayed as insane and stupid in Dragon Age 2. Saying we only saw one side of the story doesn't make any senes to me. Considering how people talk about how evil the templars are in the second game, it doesn't stike me as fair to say it's only unfarily portraying mages in a negative light.

Given that Hawke is forced to side with Meredith at one point while he isn't forced to side with Orsino under similar circumstances, I don't agree. Even the developers - Gaider included - admitted to swaying things negatively towards mages. The fact that we see mages become abominations in two seconds while still in the real world, when we see repeatedly that mages aren't conscious in the real world when they enter the Fade in Origins, which is stressed in the lore as well given Aenoar's history - is an example of this.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Also I never really interrepated Gaider's words as that the mages were as guilty as Anders was when he blew up the Chantry, just that they were "guilty" of being very dangerous; even if it was through no fault of their own they could still end up causing an act of destruction like Anders did.

Murdering an entire population of people over an act they weren't responsible for is something I find monstrous, but Gaider saying that mages aren't innocent of Anders' actions but only of being mages sounds asinine at best.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

@esper

Let's see a town or village is totally destroyed by templars or mages. Refugees fleeing, yeah word of mouth is going to travel fast. I'm sure everyone already knows by this point what happened in Kirkwall. How many ordinary citizens do you think will be fleeing on ships? Just like Hawke and family fleeing Lothering when Ostagar happened. Word of mouth is a powerful thing. Leliana will have a message network in place I'd say with the use of other seekers getting message and word back to the Divine.

King Alistair/Anora will know because of people fleeing back to Ferelden. This could be why King Alistair brings a ship for any who wish to return because they knew Kirkwall is a powder keg ready to go off.

Every war that has ever happened even in real human terms has been won or lost on spies.

Kirkwall and other countries especially Orlai knew the blight was happening in Ferelden. The Empress knew because of Cailan. The Free Marches knew because of refugees fleeing. Tevinter knew because they had slave trade going on. Antiva even knew through the crows. Qunari even knew and sent Sten to get an answer on the Blight. The Hero Of Ferelden saves Thedas in less than two years. That is alot of word of mouth from when the blight started.

Trust me if war breaks out those who are innocent are going to know what is going on.

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 10 août 2011 - 06:47 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

I don't believe that Rivain has a cirlce to be honest.  Rivain is a country with great Qunari influence (read the codex on the peace accords that you pick up in the Viscount Office).  They would not side with the Chantry over the mage/templar war.  I think Rivain is the toss up country, not Antiva.  Zevran informed Alistair to a degree that he did have religious instruction and prayed for forgiveness when he had the chance.  So Antiva is influenced by the Chantry.  Look how the Qunari treat mages.  I see Rivain with Qunari influence siding with Templars. 

I differ from you in opinion because I do believe that each country will have to choose sides.  There are to many countries with chantries in them and that the Divine has influence over.  This mage/templar war will affect every race and culture to some degree.  It will go through each country like a tidal wave.  This war will also affect Qunari and the Imperium.  We also don't know how many circles there are in the Imperium itself.  They are the black chantry also.  They are blood mages.

Some mages will also flee to Trevinter if they believe in the use of blood magic.  Those who don't,  I see them fleeing to Rivain and Ferelden. 

Orlais will side with the Templars, beside Kirkwall this is the largest area for Templars.   The chantry was formed years ago in Orlais.

Mages themselves also use lyrium.  Orzammar with Behlen on the throne will become rich beyond their wildest dreams playing both ends against the middle.   Getting this rich I can also see Kings like Behlen if the darkspawn are held in check for awhile, them doing raids on the surface to increase their holdings for surface dwarves. 

It's clear to me where Wardens are concerned and the Chantry they will also be at each other's throat.  With what happened regarding the Grey Warden prison in Kirkwall, this clearly shows that the Chantry is investigating the wardens. 

I'm pretty sure that one of the loading screens or the Codex or something mentions a Circle of Magi in Rivain. A Codex entry on the Qunari Wars also says that after the war a massacre of humans who followed the Qun took place by "Chantry and Rivaini nationalists" so I think there is supposed to be some Chantry presence there but, they aren't the dominant relgion like they are elsewhere.

In regards to the war, it's not the Chantry or the Divine that is fighting a war with the mages. It's the templars, who have themselves defied Chantry authority to do so. The Divine may have influence over every Andrastian nation but their rulers don't answer to her. But since she's not the Commander-in-Cheif of the templars any more, it likley doesn't matter either way.

Tevinter is seperate from the rest of the Andrastian nations and as a result, pretty much seperate from the conflict entirely. The only thing that would affect them is if blood mages arrived in Tevinter trying to escape from the templars. But since Gaider said that Tevinter doesn't care about the plight of foreign mages and wouldn't be happy with a large influx of "competition" from new rival mages I don't think that any significant level of mages would emigrate there. They'd just be abandoning the conflict with the templars for a new one anyway with the rival magisters anyway.

Rivain is also pretty far removed from the rest of the conflict I think. The multicultural nature of their Kingdom makes me suspect they will want to stay netural. It's possible that rebels from the Rivaini Circle may ask the Witches of Rivain for protection but I suspect they'd be disinclined to do so if it dragged them into a war.

[esper]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

Let's see a town or village is totally destroyed by templars or mages. Refugees fleeing, yeah word of mouth is going to travel fast. I'm sure everyone already knows by this point what happened in Kirkwall. How many ordinary citizens do you think will be fleeing on ships? Just like Hawke and family fleeing Lothering when Ostagar happened. Word of mouth is a powerful thing. Leliana will have a message network in place I'd say with the use of other seekers getting message and word back to the Divine.

King Alistair/Anora will know because of people fleeing back to Ferelden. This could be why King Alistair brings a ship for any who wish to return because they knew Kirkwall is a powder keg ready to go off.

Every war that has ever happened even in real human terms has been won or lost on spies.

Kirkwall and other countries especially Orlai knew the blight was happening in Ferelden. The Empress knew because of Cailan. The Free Marches knew because of refugees fleeing. Tevinter knew because they had slave trade going on. Antiva even knew through the crows. Qunari even knew and sent Sten to get an answer on the Blight. The Hero Of Ferelden saves Thedas in less than two years. That is alot of word of mouth from when the blight started.

Trust me if war breaks out those who are innocent are going to know what is going on.

Of course the innocent is going to know what is going on, but I doubt the are going to know the details as were are the mages currently hiding after the last village wipe out and how are the templars planning to corner the next group of mages. The innocenct is going to know: A village was wiped out and it was so gruesome. Just like the innocent knew; King Cailian was death and there are no grey warden left in Fereldan.

I would much rather relie on the criminiels who are likely to be selling weapons and smuggled lyrium to both side for information - they are more likely to know the valuable bits.

War is won on the good spies. Leliana still dissapointed me - I thought she was better, she clearly didn't have an idea about who was really threatning the chantry, but relied on who would want to kill her. Honestly my Hawke who sided with Orsino, conspired with the nobles and lived openly with Anders and as Elthina said did much to flame the embers of war did much more to destablize Kirkwall than the resolusinist who I wasn't even sure was a full flegded member of the sad remains of the mage underground. 

And I still don't see how this war is won by either side. There are not going to stop being fanatics who fear mages, and no matter how many mages the templars kills new will be born and if the circle no longer exits parents are going to be a lot more against handing the mage children over.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

esper wrote...

Where in legacy doesn't Anders makes sense?

I asked in another thread why Anders doesn't believe in the story about the magisters invading the Golden City in Legacy when he did believe it in the rest of the game. He says so if you give him the Tevinter Chantry Amulet and use the right dialogue choices.

[jamesp81]

Rifneno wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Honestly the people at Bioware are fools if they think they can force people to side with a faction by portraying the other faction in a poor light.

You have too much faith in people.  A lot of people WERE swayed by it.  A lot of people actually sided with the templars just because of Leandra.  I've seen them say it.  "The mages aren't innocent!  One of them killed Hawke's mother!"  I can only take comfort in knowing none of these people will have nuclear launch codes.

Like you, I don't get that.  For me, the fact that he was mage was immaterial.  What mattered is that he murdered Leandra.  There was only one possible response to that.

[esper]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

esper wrote...

Where in legacy doesn't Anders makes sense?

I asked in another thread why Anders doesn't believe in the story about the magisters invading the Golden City in Legacy when he did believe it in the rest of the game. He says so if you give him the Tevinter Chantry Amulet and use the right dialogue choices.

I have never gotten that dialog with the Tevinter Amulet. Just the black divine stalking Thedas amnd kittens. But Anders is a devout Andrastian so that he believe in the chantry version is explanable. That does sound like bad writing, a rebound from the writers side then.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

@esper

Go read you're codex entry on Llomerryn.  Rivain seers don't believe in the chantry teachings.  They believe like Morrigan and Flemeth that possession is the way to go.   Do you have a reference source on there being a chantry presence in Rivain?  I'm really sure that they don't have one.  Rivain, Seheron, and Par Vollen are the only countries in Thedas where the Chantry does not have any influence.  

Just like the Chasind in the Kocari Wilds don't believe in the Chantry teachings. Dwarfs don't believe the chantry either.  They will benefit the most from this war.  Nor do the Dalish. 

Last time I checked my warden(s) were one of the last two Grey Wardens in Ferelden after Ostagar.   

You also might want to go back and read what bards and The Crows do, and the various specialization skills rogues can pick up in these areas. 

Wars and battles are won on the intelligence that their spies pick up.  

I'm not talking about just the game but as world history and how wars are won or lost. 

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 10 août 2011 - 07:23 .

[esper]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

Go read you're codex entry on Llomerryn.  Rivain seers don't believe in the chantry teachings.  They believe like Morrigan and Flemeth that possession is the way to go.   Do you have a reference source on there being a chantry presence in Rivain?  I'm really sure that they don't have one.  Rivain, Seheron, and Par Vollen are the only countries in Thedas where the Chantry does not have any influence.  

Just like the Chasind in the Kocari Wilds don't believe in the Chantry teachings. Dwarfs don't believe the chantry either.  They will benefit the most from this war.  Nor do the Dalish. 

Last time I checked my warden(s) were one of the last two Grey Wardens in Ferelden after Ostagar.   

You also might want to go back and read what bards and The Crows do, and the various specialization skills rogues can pick up in these areas. 

Wars and battles are won on the intelligence that their spies pick up.  

The only suggestion that I can make to you is studying about war and history more or watch the history channel more often.   

We were not talking about the acutal facts about the blight in Ferelden, but what people think happened. People outside Fereldan hadn't gotten the true message about what happened. Heck there cases where people IN fereldan that believed in Loghain's propaganda.
I suggest studing religion and relgious war, because that is among other things what this war is. You are not getting the mages back into the circle's, and you can't stop new mages from being born, you are not going to stop the templars from following the doctrine they believe in.
This war has no winners, only victims and the only way it will stop is when the chantry belief is modied to accept the mages (and that modification is accepted commenly) or when the chantry and the andrastian faith falls from the position of power - neither of these two is going to happen any time soon in an medieval setting. 

[esper]

P.S. Rivain? I haven't talked about Rivain.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

esper wrote...

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

Go read you're codex entry on Llomerryn.  Rivain seers don't believe in the chantry teachings.  They believe like Morrigan and Flemeth that possession is the way to go.   Do you have a reference source on there being a chantry presence in Rivain?  I'm really sure that they don't have one.  Rivain, Seheron, and Par Vollen are the only countries in Thedas where the Chantry does not have any influence.  

Just like the Chasind in the Kocari Wilds don't believe in the Chantry teachings. Dwarfs don't believe the chantry either.  They will benefit the most from this war.  Nor do the Dalish. 

Last time I checked my warden(s) were one of the last two Grey Wardens in Ferelden after Ostagar.   

You also might want to go back and read what bards and The Crows do, and the various specialization skills rogues can pick up in these areas. 

Wars and battles are won on the intelligence that their spies pick up.  

The only suggestion that I can make to you is studying about war and history more or watch the history channel more often.   

We were not talking about the acutal facts about the blight in Ferelden, but what people think happened. People outside Fereldan hadn't gotten the true message about what happened. Heck there cases where people IN fereldan that believed in Loghain's propaganda.
I suggest studing religion and relgious war, because that is among other things what this war is. You are not getting the mages back into the circle's, and you can't stop new mages from being born, you are not going to stop the templars from following the doctrine they believe in.
This war has no winners, only victims and the only way it will stop is when the chantry belief is modied to accept the mages (and that modification is accepted commenly) or when the chantry and the andrastian faith falls from the position of power - neither of these two is going to happen any time soon in an medieval setting. 

  Oh my goodness, I don't believe you are following what you are actually writing.  You said in a post above that Rivain does have a chantry and I'm giving you a reference telling you that they don't have one and the reasons why.   I asked you for a reference so I can gain knowledge that they do since you seem confident that they have one. 

Yes, people outside of Ferelden did know what happen in regards to the Blight.  I gave you examples of this.  Once again word of mouth mechanic and how society operates within said mechanics and how they communicate on a local level vs grand scale.    

Individual opinions in other countries will be determined by each individual per their opinion and knowledge on what actually happened.  Rulers of all countries will know the truth, how will they know, various ways as word of mouth travels. I can't help you figure this out.  You'll have to do this on your own since you don't understand about the mechanic of voiced word and how word of mouth played a large part and the spies networks knowing what was going on. 

At no time did I say there were winners in this so called war.  It is a conflict that will have far reaching effects for all countries of Thedas.   I never said there is a winner or loser either way.  Once again, you're failing to release how wars (religous or not) are won and lost. 

Loghain's propaganda had no bearing once the Wardens killed the Arch demon and ended the blight.  What we are discussing is how information flowed between country to country and how opinion was formed.  

This is all that I have to say on the subject.   

Ok, I do need to apologize, someone else brought up Rivain.  You didn't.  My mistake.

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 10 août 2011 - 08:16 .

[Herr Uhl]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

Go read you're codex entry on Llomerryn.  Rivain seers don't believe in the chantry teachings.  They believe like Morrigan and Flemeth that possession is the way to go.   Do you have a reference source on there being a chantry presence in Rivain?  I'm really sure that they don't have one.  Rivain, Seheron, and Par Vollen are the only countries in Thedas where the Chantry does not have any influence.  

When do they ever voice that position.

Codex entries have been written by mages in Rivain that had the title "senior enchanter" and later were declared apostate. That would suggest they at least have a semblance of the chantry ways still there.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

I don't believe that Rivain has a cirlce to be honest.  Rivain is a country with great Qunari influence (read the codex on the peace accords that you pick up in the Viscount Office).  They would not side with the Chantry over the mage/templar war.  I think Rivain is the toss up country, not Antiva.  Zevran informed Alistair to a degree that he did have religious instruction and prayed for forgiveness when he had the chance.  So Antiva is influenced by the Chantry.  Look how the Qunari treat mages.  I see Rivain with Qunari influence siding with Templars. 

I differ from you in opinion because I do believe that each country will have to choose sides.  There are to many countries with chantries in them and that the Divine has influence over.  This mage/templar war will affect every race and culture to some degree.  It will go through each country like a tidal wave.  This war will also affect Qunari and the Imperium.  We also don't know how many circles there are in the Imperium itself.  They are the black chantry also.  They are blood mages.

Some mages will also flee to Trevinter if they believe in the use of blood magic.  Those who don't,  I see them fleeing to Rivain and Ferelden. 

Orlais will side with the Templars, beside Kirkwall this is the largest area for Templars.   The chantry was formed years ago in Orlais.

Mages themselves also use lyrium.  Orzammar with Behlen on the throne will become rich beyond their wildest dreams playing both ends against the middle.   Getting this rich I can also see Kings like Behlen if the darkspawn are held in check for awhile, them doing raids on the surface to increase their holdings for surface dwarves. 

It's clear to me where Wardens are concerned and the Chantry they will also be at each other's throat.  With what happened regarding the Grey Warden prison in Kirkwall, this clearly shows that the Chantry is investigating the wardens. 

I'm pretty sure that one of the loading screens or the Codex or something mentions a Circle of Magi in Rivain. A Codex entry on the Qunari Wars also says that after the war a massacre of humans who followed the Qun took place by "Chantry and Rivaini nationalists" so I think there is supposed to be some Chantry presence there but, they aren't the dominant relgion like they are elsewhere.

In regards to the war, it's not the Chantry or the Divine that is fighting a war with the mages. It's the templars, who have themselves defied Chantry authority to do so. The Divine may have influence over every Andrastian nation but their rulers don't answer to her. But since she's not the Commander-in-Cheif of the templars any more, it likley doesn't matter either way.

Tevinter is seperate from the rest of the Andrastian nations and as a result, pretty much seperate from the conflict entirely. The only thing that would affect them is if blood mages arrived in Tevinter trying to escape from the templars. But since Gaider said that Tevinter doesn't care about the plight of foreign mages and wouldn't be happy with a large influx of "competition" from new rival mages I don't think that any significant level of mages would emigrate there. They'd just be abandoning the conflict with the templars for a new one anyway with the rival magisters anyway.

Rivain is also pretty far removed from the rest of the conflict I think. The multicultural nature of their Kingdom makes me suspect they will want to stay netural. It's possible that rebels from the Rivaini Circle may ask the Witches of Rivain for protection but I suspect they'd be disinclined to do so if it dragged them into a war.

I have the offical walkthroughs for DA and DA2 and Awakenings.

Each walkthrough describes Rivain being in opposition to what you are saying.  There is no chantry presence in Rivain.   There is a high cross culture going on with Dalish elves and Qunari, not with the Chantry.  I don't believe that there is a chantry in Rivain.  Do you have a screenshot of this load screen?