263 réponses à ce sujet

[Rifneno]

So, in Ferelden the templars were fairly lenient and the place wasn't full of evil mages.
In Kirkwall, Meredith is close to legally having to put a swastika on her armor and the place is teeming with abominations.

So, templar supporters... ever heard the phrase "putting two and two together"? Stop coming up with five.

[Porenferser]

Ryzaki wrote...

Ah f*ck it. 

Here we go here we go here we go again. 

Dito.
I'm sick of this, always the same, Templar Evil, Mages Pure Good.
Sure thing.
I'm out of it, and I stick to what I say, the Mages in DA2 were 90% scum, the Templars were the far better choice.
Deal with it or cry.

[Ryzaki]

Porenferser wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Ah f*ck it. 

Here we go here we go here we go again. 

Dito.
I'm sick of this, always the same, Templar Evil, Mages Pure Good.
Sure thing.
I'm out of it, and I stick to what I say, the Mages in DA2 were 90% scum, the Templars were the far better choice.
Deal with it or cry.

And for the song version. 

[IanPolaris]

Porenferser wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Ah f*ck it. 

Here we go here we go here we go again. 

Dito.
I'm sick of this, always the same, Templar Evil, Mages Pure Good.
Sure thing.
I'm out of it, and I stick to what I say, the Mages in DA2 were 90% scum, the Templars were the far better choice.
Deal with it or cry.

The Templars were so good that they actively slaughtered a group of people down to the last child for what they are rather than who they are....and for something they didn't even do.

Yep.  We have a real moral winner there.

-Polaris

[DKJaigen]

Porenferser wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Ah f*ck it. 

Here we go here we go here we go again. 

Dito.
I'm sick of this, always the same, Templar Evil, Mages Pure Good.
Sure thing.
I'm out of it, and I stick to what I say, the Mages in DA2 were 90% scum, the Templars were the far better choice.
Deal with it or cry.

Never heard of judging a person on his own actions i see? In my opinion both sides were 90% scum still im pro-mage because the current system is bad one and i dosign the death warrant of a group of people because of the actions of one person.

[dragonflight288]

This isn't the first time I said this, and likely won't be the last.

No mage supporter has EVER said that all mages were good and all templars were evil. There are good eggs and bad eggs in each group.

We mage supporters critique the very system of governing the Chantry imposes on mages. All we say is that very system of telling mages they are cursed for a 1000 years, a system of recruiting templars based more on religious zeal than on integrity, a system where the wellbeing of a circle is entirely dependent on the current Knight-Commander, is a system that allows bad eggs like Karras, Alrik, and others like them to rise up in power. It also allows the sad tales like Alain every night, perfectly sane mages being driven insane like that Ferelden who was watching orphans no one else cared about.

The Circle's need reorganizing, the templar order needs reorganizing, and the Chantry needs to stay out of the way.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Gaider said that any captured mages could be made tranquil instead of outright executed. That does not rule out that any surrendering mage may be spared. Screw it... You are dead set on hating Templars...

[EmperorSahlertz]

Rifneno wrote...

So, in Ferelden the templars were fairly lenient and the place wasn't full of evil mages.
In Kirkwall, Meredith is close to legally having to put a swastika on her armor and the place is teeming with abominations.

So, templar supporters... ever heard the phrase "putting two and two together"? Stop coming up with five.

What the f*ck are you on about? The Ferelden Circle Templars were more lenient, and the goddamn Circle rebelled! The whole place went total ****storm because of the Templars leniency.

[CrimsonZephyr]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

So, in Ferelden the templars were fairly lenient and the place wasn't full of evil mages.
In Kirkwall, Meredith is close to legally having to put a swastika on her armor and the place is teeming with abominations.

So, templar supporters... ever heard the phrase "putting two and two together"? Stop coming up with five.

What the f*ck are you on about? The Ferelden Circle Templars were more lenient, and the goddamn Circle rebelled! The whole place went total ****storm because of the Templars leniency.

The entire Circle didn't rebel. Uldred and his cabal of Libertarians did, and he had spent a long time currying favor with both Irving and Greagoir as an alleged "blood mage hunter." The only reason any of that happened was because Loghain had promised him support. More to the point, Libertarians are generally an extreme minority. While it quickly went to hell when the rest of the Circle objected, they must have had some legitimate grievances when a normally small minority is able to whip up support. I'm not buying your "mages are chaotic evil waiting to happen." It's more complicated than lenient vs authoritarian. If anything, the Fereldan Circle was myopic. They were concerned more with people like Jowan and less with obviously scheming people, like Uldred.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 11 août 2011 - 11:02 .

[Herr Uhl]

Rifneno wrote...

So, in Ferelden the templars were fairly lenient and the place wasn't full of evil mages.
In Kirkwall, Meredith is close to legally having to put a swastika on her armor and the place is teeming with abominations.

Did you not notice that seemingly half of that tower were blood mages and was going to be annulled once they got reinforcements?

[TEWR]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

So, in Ferelden the templars were fairly lenient and the place wasn't full of evil mages.
In Kirkwall, Meredith is close to legally having to put a swastika on her armor and the place is teeming with abominations.

So, templar supporters... ever heard the phrase "putting two and two together"? Stop coming up with five.

What the f*ck are you on about? The Ferelden Circle Templars were more lenient, and the goddamn Circle rebelled! The whole place went total ****storm because of the Templars leniency.

The entire Circle didn't rebel. Uldred and his cabal of Libertarians did, and he had spent a long time currying favor with both Irving and Greagoir as an alleged "blood mage hunter." The only reason any of that happened was because Loghain had promised him support. More to the point, Libertarians are generally an extreme minority. While it quickly went to hell when the rest of the Circle objected, they must have had some legitimate grievances when a normally small minority is able to whip up support. I'm not buying your "mages are chaotic evil waiting to happen." It's more complicated than lenient vs authoritarian. If anything, the Fereldan Circle was myopic. They were concerned more with people like Jowan and less with obviously scheming people, like Uldred.

THIS

[Rifneno]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

So, in Ferelden the templars were fairly lenient and the place wasn't full of evil mages.
In Kirkwall, Meredith is close to legally having to put a swastika on her armor and the place is teeming with abominations.

Did you not notice that seemingly half of that tower were blood mages and was going to be annulled once they got reinforcements?

Did you not notice I said "Ferelden," which is an entire country?  Every group that the Warden had a treaty with needed to have some grand problem for the player to solve.  Ferelden itself, however, was not bursting at the seems with abominations and blood mages drinking the souls of orphans.

[miraclemight]

I think we all agree that DA II went over the top to render almost everyone crazy. And speaking of crazy, even if the Circles all over Thedas had been utopian places, there would have still been mages like Torahne, and there would have been people to follow her.

I assume if the game had given a bit more 'logical' reasons for Meredith to annul the circle, there wouldn't have been these many discussions. If Anders had blown up a part of the Gallows while Meredith,Orsino and Hawke were away, it would have made some sense to assume it was work of a circle mage. Hell, even a few demons trespassing to the mortal world and appearing somewhere in the courtyard because the Veil was thin due to atrocities, would have been more convincing. Meredith says the Circle is harbouring Blood mages, and lo and behold it does have a lot of them in fact, but the player doesn't actually have the power to uncover it until it is too late. I know the letter signed with a simple "O" is written by Orsino, I know someone was smuggling necromancy books out of the circle. Why don't you give me the opportunity to prove it?

In short, I want to say that according to what the game has shown (read "rubbing insane mages and sadistic Templar in your face ever few seconds") neither supporting the mages, nor the Templar are totally right choices. The better option is the "I don't want to choose side" which actually exists in the conversation whell, but just for decoration...

Modifié par miraclemight, 11 août 2011 - 11:17 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Apathy is death.

[Sepewrath]

miraclemight wrote...
I assume if the game had given a bit more 'logical' reasons for Meredith to annul the circle, there wouldn't have been these many discussions. If Anders had blown up a part of the Gallows while Meredith,Orsino and Hawke were away, it would have made some sense to assume it was work of a circle mage. Hell, even a few demons trespassing to the mortal world and appearing somewhere in the courtyard because the Veil was thin due to atrocities, would have been more convincing.

There was nothing illogical about it, at least not from a people stand point. Its a problem with games, its tough for them to express the situation as it is, when the characters, experiences it completely different from the player. Its been 7yrs of this with them, that is a long time to be at the throat of someone you have to see everyday. It would be like being married to someone you hate with a passion, but you cant leave. The situation is going to explode, its just a matter of what the catalyst would be.

And the problem that would have arisen with putting suspicion on the Circle mages being behind the Chantry attack, is it would have given no reason to deny Meredith the annulment. Then the only way to force a choice there, would be like Hawke says "We don't know they did it, lets investigate" and Merediths response is "Your either with me or against me" And that would be even more forced, leaving you in a situation where you have no clue, so your choice is a guess.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The thing about the end of Dragon Age 2 was that, while I consider the larger question of the mages and templar and their war to be a grey area, the decision to annul the Circle or not still was an easy decision to me. If they were trying to make that decision morally grey, I don't think they succeeded entirely.

I guess I could see siding with the templars being judged as making the best of a bad situation that Anders and Meredith forced you into; but punishing the Circle mages for somebody else's crimes seems like a mostly straightforward moral question, so both of my Hawkes so far have sided with the mages.

I might have been more inclined to side with the templars if Orisino had revealed himself to be resorting to blood magic before the decision point or if he'd not been portrayed as a clearly more reasonable and less dangerous alternative to Meredith's hostility and zealotry all the way up to and including that point.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 12 août 2011 - 02:23 .

[TEWR]

Identified by a simple runic pattern on the inverse, this cowl was commissioned by a group of mages who improve the perception of magic by making problems disappear before the Chantry gets involved.

from the Collective Arming Cowl.

People really are selling the mages short on here and acting like they don't have any support whatsoever, when in truth the Mages' Collective has been helping mages look good in the eyes of the populus.

[devSin]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The thing about the end of Dragon Age 2 was that, while I consider the larger question of the mages and templar and their war to be a grey area, the decision to annul the Circle or not still was an easy decision to me. If they were trying to make that decision morally grey, I don't think they succeeded entirely.

I guess I could see siding with the templars being judged as making the best of a bad situation that Anders and Meredith forced you into; but punishing the Circle mages for somebody else's crimes seems like a mostly straightforward moral question, so both of my Hawkes so far have sided with the mages.

I might have been more inclined to side with the templars if Orisino had revealed himself to be resorting to blood magic before the decision point or if he'd not been portrayed as a clearly more reasonable and less dangerous alternative to Meredith's hostility and zealotry all the way up to and including that point.

I think this is probably pretty perfectly put.

Although I tend to stay more toward the neutral/Templar side (although I don't support the clear abuse of mages that's going on, you can't just pat on the head people who are surrounded by blood magic right in front of you), there's no way to support Meredith. She doesn't have the authority that I'm aware to invoke, and she's certainly not a person to be trusted with it regardless.

I don't support Meredith because I can't support Meredith. Maybe that was the intent (I wasn't sad to see either die, by the end), but it's like being stuck between Tweedle-Dum and Tweedle-Dee. I just want to smack the both of them. And then I'm supposed to be the spark that ignites a mage rebellion, and I wasn't even fighting for that. The Templars have a point; they just need to be less of a dick about it. That's my rallying cry.

miraclemight wrote...

In short, I want to say that according to what the game has shown (read "rubbing insane mages and sadistic Templar in your face ever few seconds") neither supporting the mages, nor the Templar are totally right choices. The better option is the "I don't want to choose side" which actually exists in the conversation whell, but just for decoration...

At least it was there, even if Meredith won't let you get away with it. Samson's dialogue at the kidnapping pissed me off more than any other conversation in the game. I was furious that the only responses were "Death to Meredith!" and "Mages are evil!" (even Aveline, of all people, is like "Isn't that a bit much, son?"). Where the hell were the sane responses? "I'm just here to save my brother. You can shove your politics, junkie."

Modifié par devSin, 12 août 2011 - 03:50 .

[TEWR]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The thing about the end of Dragon Age 2 was that, while I consider the larger question of the mages and templar and their war to be a grey area, the decision to annul the Circle or not still was an easy decision to me. If they were trying to make that decision morally grey, I don't think they succeeded entirely.

I guess I could see siding with the templars being judged as making the best of a bad situation that Anders and Meredith forced you into; but punishing the Circle mages for somebody else's crimes seems like a mostly straightforward moral question, so both of my Hawkes so far have sided with the mages.

I might have been more inclined to side with the templars if Orisino had revealed himself to be resorting to blood magic before the decision point or if he'd not been portrayed as a clearly more reasonable and less dangerous alternative to Meredith's hostility and zealotry all the way up to and including that point.

I can't side with the Templars for various reasons:

• Meredith's ordering of the Circle was clearly the act of an insane woman who was overreacting
  
• The Circle wasn't beyond saving (Orsino even makes a last ditch effort to try and get her to stop the slaughter, but she doesn't listen)
  
• I can't slaughter hundreds of men, women, and children for an act Anders did.
  
• With the Templars, you're agreeing to kill everyone, as that's the very definition of the Right of Annulment. With the Mages, you just want them to escape and that doesn't mean you have to kill anyone (though the game forces you too). With the Templars, you're thinning the Veil even further which will just make things worse in the future.
  
• My Hawkes got distracted by the pretty fireworks

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 12 août 2011 - 03:55 .

[Crow_22]

I agree with Ethereal.

I don't follow a mad woman (or man, for that matter) and I do not stand for mindless slaughter and death. Orisino was an idiot as well Probably the most hypocritical, that's for sure.



Edit: Sorry, I forgot to add this part which was directed at the very first statement. Anyway, I think that Templars will get more support because basically the Chantry leaders (or just the Templar leaders) will either make a force conscription on people and give it the guise of a 'optional' choice to the common folk once the mages rally all over Thadas. Like I've been saying for months, there will be the Tevintor (I spelled it wrong, ik) Imperium invovled in this struggel between Mages and Templars, not because of the sympathy toward the mages, but as an opprotunity to eliminate any 'anti-mage' troops a country has, which we've seen Templars populate most of Thadas' regions and countries. Because of this, I think the Tevintors cannot attack head on and directly like in a full wartime, therefore bide their time.

As for combat. Templars are meant to be grouped togther, this is made apparent when Blood Magic becomes involved because as soon as Blood Magic is involved, Templar abilities are (according to BioWare) rendered useless because the Blood Magic is not only using magic outside Lyrium, but controlling their Templar Brethren, so, they aren't that much of a threat alone, but grouped they are very dangerous to a mage.

To summerize all of what I said: There will be a World War in Thadas. And I do believe that for the mages, the Imperium will be behind most sympathy toward mages and their chance to 'over throw' other nations, and expand their border. Qunari will also become involved I think, but that is just my opinion. Based on evidence, the Imperium will step into this 'Civil War' between Templars and mages.



And questions try to email me at tcridge@live.com, or message me through this. (I lead a busy life xD)

Modifié par Crow_22, 12 août 2011 - 04:09 .

[dragonflight288]

But even Orsino sought a way to avoid genocide. Meredith didn't even bother listening to another course of action.

[devSin]

But Orsino was a criminal, even if secretly (he'd obviously kept abreast of Quentin's depravities, and wasn't totally against them in the first place).

Meredith was crazy, but Orsino was a blood mage. They both deserved to die in the end.

Meredith has much more going for her than Orsino. He's crazy by choice. She's poisoned by her dumb idol (it couldn't have happened to a nicer lady, but she still was under the influence of bad juju).

[Crow_22]

Well, Orisino was not a blood mage at first, he was 'forced' into action by Meredith's rage, but that still does not excuse him.

And personally, Meredith was crazy the minute she become a Templar, even before the sword she mentions 'drastic' measures if need be.

[devSin]

Orsino was a blood mage the second he allowed for a psychopathic murderer to continue his blood magic rituals. The letter from him to Quentin is proof that he knew what was going on (the nature of the research, even if not his killing spree), and his statements when he succumbs to his own weakness confirm it.

Meanwhile, Meredith has had the idol since Act II (so at least 3 years). She's a hard-ass before then, but she's not a total brute (and you see her transformation from high-school principal to war criminal in the few places she's mentioned, mostly in the Gallows, during the final two acts). She was never going to end well, sure. But there's no evidence that she was completely nuts in your early years in the city (she brought it on herself, with the dumb idol, so I don't feel bad for her, but she was initially portrayed as being too rigid and too strict, not as being a sociopath).

Modifié par devSin, 12 août 2011 - 04:23 .

[Shadow Fox]

Crow_22 wrote...

Well, Orisino was not a blood mage at first, he was 'forced' into action by Meredith's rage, but that still does not excuse him.

And personally, Meredith was crazy the minute she become a Templar, even before the sword she mentions 'drastic' measures if need be.

I always call bs on that one.

Orsino couldn't just pull it out of his ass he had to learn it from somewhere.