523 réponses à ce sujet

[Rekkampum]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...

The very fact that Shepard was brought back to life should throw out all concepts of religion - as it immediately denies the existance of a soul - supposing instead that everything that Shepard is, is contained in the physical body. Fix the body, and anybody can come back to life.

Most sci-fi stories manage to make a number of jabs at religion - which may or may not be appropriate given the context.

No doubt, if sentient alien life is ever discovered, the church will find a way to re-interpret their books and scrolls so that it somehow still fits into their belief system.

Not true at all. I know people here today that literally died, their body was dead. And they came back to life and they're not empty shells.

Ironically, one of them is a pastor.

Yes, 'died' in a medical sense, meaning they flatlined for a number of seconds or minutes.  Not, dead for 2 years.  Most Earth religions would have you believe that once you die, your soul leaves the body and travels to another plane of existance (perhaps Heaven, perhaps another body if you believe in reincarnation - I'm not going to go into this sub-topic any further).  The point is, the religious explanation for people dying and being brought back (within minutes) is simply that their soul has not yet left the body, or is near enough by to be drawn back to it.

That is clearly not the case with Shepard.

A "medical" reason can't explain why one of my relatives was pronounced clinically dead after over an hour of trying to resuscitate them, and was put into a morgue, only to be discovered breathing an hour later. 

Also, since we have no true objective understanding of souls- if they exist at all- it's impossible to know whether they leave shortly after death or a while later. Many of these religions do embrace the idea of ghosts, after all.

[Davie McG]

AwesomeName wrote...

The level they've got it at in the first 2 games is fine as far as I'm concerned; just keep it at that, please.

That's what most people want, we're just saying it would be good to continue that.

Think about how much we learned about Thanes beliefs and those of the drell in ME2 and how much we learned about the Enkindlers in the first game. If they continue to teach us a bit more about the other species religions, in the same depth they have been that would be great.

[Rekkampum]

Em23 wrote...

ThePwener wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...

What you've said there really has no relevance to science.  According to the science, evolution takes place over  extended periods of time.  If you have any interest in how land animals came to be, I suggest you do some research.  'Fish' did not one day flop onto a beach and all of a sudden grow lungs and legs.

Here's the thing. If evolution occurs out of necessity for survival, then that means the fish ran out of water. If the fish ran out of water, it must have died, not evolved. It really makes no sense. If there is water, why would it need to evolve?

Also, if Humans evolved from primates, how are there still monkeys around? Why didn't those evolve either? also, there is not a single shred of evidence that evolution exists. It's a theory passed as fact. Nothing more.

You do not understand what evolution is or how it works.
Inform yourself first. Arguing about this is pretty impossible atm, as it would just consist of trying to explain it for you.

Also a classic misunderstanding of a layman's theory and scientific theory.


Aside from this, I think I would like to learn more about the Turian religion. I do appreciate certain ontological and epistemelogical questions raised in the Mass Effect series, although not always as directly as in the first. I definitely can't wait to see more info on the Reapers and how they evolved.

Modifié par Rekkampum, 09 août 2011 - 06:45 .

[Arppis]

Maybe it plays lesser role now that technology has advanced so far and residents of the galaxy has been able to explore more places aaand find answers for things religion brought answers for before. So maybe religion is just diminishing because of those factors?

[Rekkampum]

Davie McG wrote...

AwesomeName wrote...

The level they've got it at in the first 2 games is fine as far as I'm concerned; just keep it at that, please.

That's what most people want, we're just saying it would be good to continue that.

Think about how much we learned about Thanes beliefs and those of the drell in ME2 and how much we learned about the Enkindlers in the first game. If they continue to teach us a bit more about the other species religions, in the same depth they have been that would be great.

Thane's religion is pretty awesome.

[Ieldra]

Davie McG wrote...
A bit ot tolerance of others beliefs would go a long way here people.

It's just that people, out of ignorance, treat things as matters of belief which aren't. You can't argue with overwhelming evidence, and two opinions aren't worthy of the same level of respect if one is structurally unsound (to avoid a stronger term) and the other is sound and well-supported by evidence. Staying silent on the subject means supporting the spread of bullsh*t and promotion of ignorance. 

Religion doesn't deserve special treatment just because it's religion. Its claims should be held to the same standards as non-religious claims.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 09 août 2011 - 07:03 .

[marshalleck]

Davie McG wrote...

A bit ot tolerance of others beliefs would go a long way here people.

Ignorance should never be tolerated.

[azerSheppard]

Seboist wrote...

Archereon wrote...

Wait, there's widespread religion in Mass Effect? I got the impression that humans were mostly atheists with some believers like Williams peppered around, enough for the Catholic Church to still exist at least; Asari, Turians, and Salarians just paid lip service to whatever vestiges of faith remained in their society; Reapers and Geth don't believe in higher powers (though the former seem to consider themselves gods); And nobody gives a damn about what the Batarians believe.

Geth have clear religious inclanations. The "heretics" worship the Reapers and were seen praying in a makeshift temple on Feros in ME1. The fact that the "heretics" are even called "heretics" by Legion's Geth instead of say rebel or seperatist is another indicator.

You have to see this from the geth perspective, as Legion states; "We are created life", that IS the basis of most religious pursuits. Even from a logical viewpoint, a completely rational one, the heretics revere the Reapers as gods, becuase the reapers ARE gods. They are the apex of any and all evolutionary cycles, be it synthetic or otherwise. It would be most logical to revere them, as to why most geth do not, it's a matter of choise, the heretics believed that becoming a reaper would be the final evolutionary step, the most supperior one, whilst the others believed that paving their own way to "godhood" would be the most fruitfull way.

Diversity can only be achieved by choice, by freedom.

[Arken]

Rekkampum wrote...

Davie McG wrote...

AwesomeName wrote...

The level they've got it at in the first 2 games is fine as far as I'm concerned; just keep it at that, please.

That's what most people want, we're just saying it would be good to continue that.

Think about how much we learned about Thanes beliefs and those of the drell in ME2 and how much we learned about the Enkindlers in the first game. If they continue to teach us a bit more about the other species religions, in the same depth they have been that would be great.

Thane's religion is pretty awesome.

Thane's religion pretty much sounds like the typical polytheistic belief system. Believing that the soul is separate from the body is pretty common in most cultures especially aboriginal tribes of North and South America and is still prevalent in Latin culture.

I'm fine with maybe seeing some humans suddenly praying during the Reaper* invasion.

Actually I would love it if members of the same species had different beliefs. I'm pretty sure I have been on a rant that aliens should have more cultural diversity. I think it would be neat to see some of the different turian beliefs systems, and maybe a turian approaching Shepard for advice like maybe a buddhist** turian thinks that Shepard knows about buddhism.

Turian: But you're human!
Shepard: Not all humans are buddhist! You turians are all racists!

*=Why is the word Reaper supposed to capitalized if it is the name of a species, and the name of a species is not supposed to be capitalized.
**=Why does this site think the word buddhist is misspelled, but not the word Pokemon? I'm hoping this is actually my browser.

[General User]

Arken wrote...
*=Why is the word Reaper supposed to capitalized if it is the name of a species, and the name of a species is not supposed to be capitalized.

Because "Reaper" is a both the name of the species (or form-of-life) and a title.

Modifié par General User, 09 août 2011 - 07:45 .

[Dr.Theory]

Here's why I don't like religion in space with different races. Anthropomorphistic centerism. All the different kinds of religions given to the different races are either a direct rip or a variant on some human cultures belief/religion. It is a lazy attempt at giving depth to a culture that may never have been wired up to believe in a something even remotely similar to what we have on Earth. The fact that you can actually see on an FMRI the places in the brain where fanatical brand loyalty and religion light up like Christmas tree indicates that as a species its wired. We are predisposed to believe in a giant bearded man in the sky looking over us. (add in whatever variable your religion calls for) It is unlikely that a completely different species evolving on another planet who be neurologically similar.

[jamesp81]

Radahldo wrote...

Must we always live in fear of fox news

Seriously?  That particular line of complaining is getting really old.  Even for BSN, and that's saying something.

[jamesp81]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Radahldo wrote...
I think the lack of acknowledgment of religion directly impacted the resurrection storyline.

I mean its a huge deal to die/be frozen/whatever and be revived. Not being able to say anything at all of a religious nature was immersion breaking for me. It wouldve been a nice spiritual conversation with Thane and/or Mordin.

Why name it Lazarus project and then avoid religion?

Agreed. In a general sense I don't want religion to be more present in the game, but here it would've been absolutely appropriate to bring it up. Even necessary, considering that players often project their religion into their protagonists. Even for the non.religious it would have been worth at least a comment with an existential undertone. I recall that I expected such an option when playing for the first time. That ME2 ignored that is a serious flaw - and such a wasted opportunity. 

@Mash:
People buckling before extremist news networks isn't a good example to make. Too much of that and the extremists will gain sovereignity of interpretation. You don't want that. This policy of anticipatory obedience I find troubling. Although I see more of that in the ME2 romance scenes than in not dealing with religion.

Extremist news networks, is it?  Please tell me which news networks are not "extremist" by someone's definition?

There isn't one.

If you are convinced that what you believe is right, live that way and not give one whit about the news.  Anything less is the sign of a timid spirit anyway, and what good is that?

[marshalleck]

jamesp81 wrote...

Radahldo wrote...

Must we always live in fear of fox news

Seriously?  That particular line of complaining is getting really old. 

I know, right? I wish that organization would just die already.

[Arken]

General User wrote...

Arken wrote...
*=Why is the word Reaper supposed to capitalized if it is the name of a species, and the name of a species is not supposed to be capitalized?

Because "Reaper" is a both the name of the species (or form-of-life) and a title.

I must have missed that. Never really thought of it that way.

[marshalleck]

Arken wrote...

General User wrote...

Arken wrote...
*=Why is the word Reaper supposed to capitalized if it is the name of a species, and the name of a species is not supposed to be capitalized?

Because "Reaper" is a both the name of the species (or form-of-life) and a title.

I must have missed that. Never really thought of it that way.

Not sure that's entirely correct. "Prothean" is also capitalized, although it only refers to species. Unless it has something to do with the relative importance placed on them by the inhabitants of the Mass Effect universe, which can't be the reasoning because most of the galaxy's inhabitants are unaware of the Reapers...

Modifié par marshalleck, 09 août 2011 - 08:27 .

[jamesp81]

marshalleck wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Radahldo wrote...

Must we always live in fear of fox news

Seriously?  That particular line of complaining is getting really old. 

I know, right? I wish that organization would just die already.

That's not what I meant.  I was hoping more for the death of the complaining about them.  It is very tiresome.

[marshalleck]

jamesp81 wrote...

That's not what I meant.  

I know.

[xXRevan0515Xx]

fox news = evil incarnate

ME 1 & 2 had just the right amount of religion in it so that it doesn't bother me when I play through the games. If my Shepard had to go to church or something I would be forced to play hooky and throw rocks at pyjaks.

[jamesp81]

I am categorically against reducing the number of differing opinions being voiced aloud. Doing so often leads down an unfortunate path.

But fox news and related political subjects are off-topic anyway, and if someone wants to continue that conversation a PM will suffice.

Now, back on topic.

Someone mentioned upthread about most alien religions being derivatives of human ones. That's true enough, I suppose, but I can't call it lazy writing. It's a matter of perspective. Any religion invented for an alien race will at least be somewhat familiar to humans. Being humans ourselves, we are constrained by our mental faculties to think of things in terms we understand. It's kind of inevitable that it would turn out that way. For it not to, you'd need an actual alien on your writing staff.

[Captain_Obvious]

[quote]Radahldo wrote...
I think the lack of acknowledgment of religion directly impacted the resurrection storyline.

I mean its a huge deal to die/be frozen/whatever and be revived. Not being able to say anything at all of a religious nature was immersion breaking for me. It wouldve been a nice spiritual conversation with Thane and/or Mordin.

Why name it Lazarus project and then avoid religion? [/quote]

[/quote]

To me, use of the word "Lazarus" is no more than a passing reference or nod to the Lazarus Pits that Ra's al Ghul uses in the Batman comic books to rejuvenate himself.  I don't view Shepard's recovery as a resurrection simply because that term has no meaning for me.  I view existentialism in the same non-relevant manner.  I thought that the manner in which Shepard's recovery was handled was perfect; no debate, no crisis of faith, no existential examination.  My Shepard would never acknowledge religion, it is not a material fact in his/her universe.  It is immaterial in my life, and I do project that onto my Shepards.  

I would have no objection to inserting religious discussions in the same manner that I have no objection to gay or bisexual content.  As long as it is optional content, I'd be fine with it.  Once it crosses that line, it becomes proselytization, and I will not tolerate that in any aspect of my life. 

[Inquisitor Recon]

xXRevan0515Xx wrote...
fox news = evil incarnate

I must have missed that time Jesus came down and raised MSNBC or CNN to God's right hand status. <_<