523 réponses à ce sujet

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

AnAccountWithNoName wrote...

Perhaps the amount of humanoid species, that have many similarities with each other, could be proof that maybe there is a higher power in the ME universe....or its just a coincedence that the Asari look so human.

The Asari exist so that some people's Shepards can get their Kirk on.

[NICKjnp]

I rather enjoy the fact that they presented a religious character (Ashley) in ME1. I hope they continue to build on her religious beliefs in the game. It was nice to role-play a Christian Shepard (myself being Christian).

[Therefore_I_Am]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

CrazyCatDude wrote...

ThePwener wrote...

Humans are probably the most culturally diverse out of them all. I myself believe in God, but accept that evolution is a fact in the ME universe and that there is no God either, as there are other alien races that came after and before humanity which do not know of Jesus Christ.

What surprises me the most is the fact that this did not cause a riot by the Catholic Church and every other major God believing group in Earth. Every 50,000 - 100,000 years the Reapers descend upon the Milky Way to eradicate every trace of sentient life that evolves and achieves space flight. This alone proves that evolution is real in the ME universe.

Um, you are aware that the Catholic Church actually accepts and endorses evolution as valid science, right?  It's those pesky protestant fundamentalist sects that tend have a problem with it.

I love how everyone not of a certain bent tends to be as derogatory as possible. "pesky protestant fundamentalist sects"? Really? That sounds completely unbiased.
This isn't the place for extended discussion of the topic, but evolution is a logical fallacy.

Well we certaintly didn't appear from a magic wand.

[marshalleck]

AnAccountWithNoName wrote...

Perhaps the amount of humanoid species, that have many similarities with each other, could be proof that maybe there is a higher power in the ME universe....or its just a coincedence that the Asari look so human.

Bioware have already explained that as a form of convergent evolution at work in which a bipedal humanoid form is advantageous/characteristic of advanced species, although not true of all (hanar--though they required outside assistance)

What this actually comes down to is characters need to look recognizable otherwise players wouldn't react to or sympathize with them in the way intended by the developers. It's simply one of the long established sci-fi tropes, and that doesn't automatically make it bad.

[Nightdragon8]

Why does it need to be a major part of ME3? Honestly I thought most of it was explained in Codex's.

Honestly It seems to me that in ME universe most sprices have gotten over the whole "if they aren't bealving like I do then they must convert or die" sort of thing. Including humans. Ash doesn't try to convert Shep, she just asks him if its ok that she bleave in a God.

I don't see why it even need to be in ME3 so much, also we saw some in ME2 "Repent the end is nigh" Batrian guy. I mean don't get me wrong seeing one or 2 "Doomsday" sayers would be fine, even if you get to interact with him, you know the "shut him up" punch. (I think my paragon shep is going to be doing that if given a chance)

So. while I wouldn't mind seeing people going back to church or going back to there own relgious ways due to a high stress envroment, what could be done is the refugees doing that. Cause I suspect that there are going to be alot of them.

[100k]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

evolution is a logical fallacy.

 This is going to get interesting...

:o:o:o
DOWN! FLAMEWAR INCOMING! EVERYBODY GET DOWN!!!!!! ARRRRG---

[Boiny Bunny]

AnAccountWithNoName wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...

The very fact that Shepard was brought back to life should throw out all concepts of religion - as it immediately denies the existance of a soul - supposing instead that everything that Shepard is, is contained in the physical body. Fix the body, and anybody can come back to life.

Most sci-fi stories manage to make a number of jabs at religion - which may or may not be appropriate given the context.

No doubt, if sentient alien life is ever discovered, the church will find a way to re-interpret their books and scrolls so that it somehow still fits into their belief system.

It's also worth mentioning, that the Geth and Hanar do worship, but are not religious.  The beings that they worship have been (in the ME universe) factually proven to exist, and influenced the development of their species directly, leaving evidence of this tampering.  There is no element of 'faith' whatsoever for either of them.  They simply recognise certain beings as vastly powerful, and choose to worship those figures - perhaps in a somewhat similar manner to a dog and its human master.

Or, maybe souls do exist, and God (if one did exist in the ME universe) allowed Shepard's soul to either stay in his damaged body, or allowed it to come back from the great beyond once the body was fully healed, since "God" wants Shepard to defeat the reapers.

Or maybe im just overthinking it:D

Im just trying to say that the way Shepard came back to life does not disprove the theory that souls exist.

True, it doesn't disprove it in a scientific manner - but it gives it a giagantic smack across the face with a baseball bat.  

I mean, you're debating against it by resorting to far-fetched 'maybes' which don't generally agree with the Church's teachings.

Maybe 'God' is a giant pink rabbit and created the Reapers for entertainment - and had Shepard brought back to life because otherwise there would be no opposition (thus little entertainment to be had).

[ThePwener]

marshalleck wrote...

Why do you believe that to be so?

well, there is no evidence that evolution is real, yet many pass it as fact like the Big Bang. Did someone use a time machine to see the birth of the galaxy? Didn't think so.

Here's Richard Dawkins stumped on the question:

[SandTrout]

Rational thought is rational thought, and by definition is not subjective. The premise is based in understanding the reasons that things happen to the limits of our senses. Some instances lack full understanding of the reasons or data, resulting in flawed or estimated conclusions.

Subjective nihilism is the rejection of the real in favor of the imaginary. The claim that 'everything is subjective' is synonymous with 'nothing is real', which is a cop-out for not wanting to bother with understanding reality. Rejecting the real in favor of the imaginary cannot reach a correct conclusion more often than basing your thought process off of the real. If a correct conclusion is reached by following a subjective thought process, then it is always by 100% chance, not by any virtue inherent in the subjective thought process.

The rational thought process judges 'right and wrong' by weather or not the desired goal is reached. Mixing arsenic and oxygen to make water is wrong. Mixing hydrogen and oxygen to make water is right.

That said, I think that religion plays an appropriate role in ME. Many characters, even extremely rational ones such a Mordin, express religious leanings of some sort or another. None allow this to override their reason with dogma, however. Most use it as a way of coping with the stresses of life.

I do not consider science and religion to be mutually exclusive by any means. Science is the study of how things work, and by its nature, it cannot definitively prove that there is no god. The most that it can do to religion is prove speficic pieces of dogma, most of which were created because they subjectively 'sounded good', by revealing the fact of the matter. If anything, science should be embraced by the religious as a means to understand God's creation. In fact, the drive to understand God's creation was the primary impetus behind many early scientific minds, such as Newton.

The clash between science and religion is actually the clash between science and the Church. Prior to the broad use of the scientific method, the Church held a monopoly on 'truth'. When scientists began noticing discrepancies between what the Church was saying and what they observed in the real world, they had undermined the Church's social and political power over the masses.

It was this challenge to their authority that the Church took offense to, not an attack on God itself, which is functionally impossible via scientific means.

In conclusion, I really wish people would realize that the Church is a human construct and is fallible, but that doesn't negate the existence of god.

[Davie McG]

Nightdragon8 wrote...

Why does it need to be a major part of ME3? Honestly I thought most of it was explained in Codex's.

Honestly It seems to me that in ME universe most sprices have gotten over the whole "if they aren't bealving like I do then they must convert or die" sort of thing. Including humans. Ash doesn't try to convert Shep, she just asks him if its ok that she bleave in a God.

I don't see why it even need to be in ME3 so much, also we saw some in ME2 "Repent the end is nigh" Batrian guy. I mean don't get me wrong seeing one or 2 "Doomsday" sayers would be fine, even if you get to interact with him, you know the "shut him up" punch. (I think my paragon shep is going to be doing that if given a chance)

So. while I wouldn't mind seeing people going back to church or going back to there own relgious ways due to a high stress envroment, what could be done is the refugees doing that. Cause I suspect that there are going to be alot of them.

Not a massive part, just a side mission or something where you meet an Asari priestess or something and through that conversation learn more about their beliefs. It fleshes out the universe a bit more, gets you more immersed in this fiction.

[Boiny Bunny]

Actually, better yet, maybe what humans percieve to be 'God' ARE the Reapers. They are known to make comments which may agree with this line of reasoning...

[Whatever42]

Our ancient religions tried to explain much of the world in supernatural terms. When science explained the world in natural terms then religion had to change its message. For the vast majority of people today, including the catholic church, religion is more of a vague deism.

For example, people still say that God created heaven and earth but say the genesis is now a metaphor for something else.

In the ME universe, the faiths of humanity or any other race will be similarly vague. For example, when the Hanar were faced with the facts that the protheans were not the gods they thought, orthodoxy changed instantly. That's likely because as long as the core spiritual tenants remain unchanged, the details are flexible.

Discussion of religion by the characters would be equally vague. I'm not sure how you could get into any serious theological conversations.

[SandTrout]

Because things, indeed life, tend(s) towards entropy. Disorder.

Wrong. Closed systems tend toward disorder. No life is a closed system.

[Sharn01]

A little bit of religion mixed in sure, too much either endorsing or rebutting religious beliefs is far to controversial, its easier to get away with religious based stories in games like DA where the religions are made up by the developers for the game.

[ThePwener]

100k wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

evolution is a logical fallacy.

 This is going to get interesting...

:o:o:o
DOWN! FLAMEWAR INCOMING! EVERYBODY GET DOWN!!!!!! ARRRRG---

*snip*

Dammit.....

[Davie McG]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

Actually, better yet, maybe what humans percieve to be 'God' ARE the Reapers. They are known to make comments which may agree with this line of reasoning...

Blasphemous, but interesting.

[huntrrz]

marshalleck wrote...

What this actually comes down to is characters need to look recognizable otherwise players wouldn't react to or sympathize with them in the way intended by the developers. It's simply one of the long established sci-fi tropes, and that doesn't automatically make it bad.

It's not so much "they have to look recognizable" as "they have to fit the humanoid skeleton our game engine supports".  Developing new animations and joint physics for different physiologies would be too costly to consider.

[Boiny Bunny]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

This isn't the place for extended discussion of the topic, but evolution is a logical fallacy.

Why do you believe that to be so?

Because things, indeed life, tend(s) towards entropy. Disorder. Depending on one's version of evolution, a monkey learning to reason is not entropy. It's the opposite of entropy. A fish crawling on land and magically gaining lungs (how would they get said lungs? They've lived in water, and everytime they exited water they died.) is not entropy. Evolution has some points about it which are valid, such as survival of the fittest, in a sense, but I cannot accept that an entropic universe somehow spawned anti-entropic life.

What you've said there really has no relevance to science.  According to the science, evolution takes place over  extended periods of time.  If you have any interest in how land animals came to be, I suggest you do some research.  'Fish' did not one day flop onto a beach and all of a sudden grow lungs and legs.

[Radahldo]

I don't think all of this evolution discussion is necessarily relevant to how religion is depicted in mass effect. It's clearly just repackaging of current spirituality and not very critical of anything in regards to potraying how religious thought would react to aliens and things of that nature. I also don't think they would seriously try to undercut someones belief system in a game they paid for, that would be really bad. So perhaps we should all just step away from evolution discussions for a bit cause this isnt going a pleasant place..

Modifié par Radahldo, 09 août 2011 - 03:16 .

[Whatever42]

ThePwener wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Why do you believe that to be so?

well, there is no evidence that evolution is real, yet many pass it as fact like the Big Bang. Did someone use a time machine to see the birth of the galaxy? Didn't think so.

Here's Richard Dawkins stumped on the question:

There is huge, abundant evidence that evolution and the big bang is real. You won't stump me on either. 

And yes, we did use a time machine to see the *almost* birth of the universe. The universe is 13.7 billion years old. The light from the most distant galaxies reaching us today is almost that old because that's how long it took for the light to reach us. We can see how fast those galaxies are moving away from us. And they are all moving away from us.

Actually, those galaxies are over 41 billion light years away because space is expanding faster than the speed of light. We can see that galaxies in clusters closer to us are moving away from us faster than the galaxies further away. So we know the acceleration of space-time is increasing and we live in an inflationary universe.

Time travel is a wonderful tool is cosmology.

[ThePwener]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

What you've said there really has no relevance to science.  According to the science, evolution takes place over  extended periods of time.  If you have any interest in how land animals came to be, I suggest you do some research.  'Fish' did not one day flop onto a beach and all of a sudden grow lungs and legs.

Here's the thing. If evolution occurs out of necessity for survival, then that means the fish ran out of water. If the fish ran out of water, it must have died, not evolved. It really makes no sense. If there is water, why would it need to evolve?

Also, if Humans evolved from primates, how are there still monkeys around? Why didn't those evolve either? also, there is not a single shred of evidence that evolution exists. It's a theory passed as fact. Nothing more.

[Whatever42]

Davie McG wrote...

Not a massive part, just a side mission or something where you meet an Asari priestess or something and through that conversation learn more about their beliefs. It fleshes out the universe a bit more, gets you more immersed in this fiction.

It would be cool to have a deeper understanding of what "embrace eternity" means.

[marshalleck]

huntrrz wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

What this actually comes down to is characters need to look recognizable otherwise players wouldn't react to or sympathize with them in the way intended by the developers. It's simply one of the long established sci-fi tropes, and that doesn't automatically make it bad.

It's not so much "they have to look recognizable" as "they have to fit the humanoid skeleton our game engine supports".  Developing new animations and joint physics for different physiologies would be too costly to consider.

Right...and Liara as the prominent, and probably canon love interest for Shepard would work so well if she looked like a "gas bag" from Eden Prime.