Gervaise wrote...
Also depending on which order you talk to people in Act 3 it can appear she is doing something behind the scenes. I went to her and asked her to do something. She avowed she couldn't take sides. Then I went to talk to Meredith and she complained that the Grand Cleric was taking sides and favouring the mages. Also that hard line Templar claimed that Meredith has applied directly to Orlais for permission for a RoA - going over the Grand Cleric who is clearly standing in the way of such a drastic action. This being the case, Meredith whilst appearing shocked by the bomb, may well be secretly pleased that the only person with the authority to stop her is now dead.
In any situation like this you can state a person is being inactive when in fact they are working hard behind the scenes because clearly with someone like Meredith, publicly humiliating them is only going to make them worse - and in fact telling her to go back to the gallows "like a good girl" is terribly patronising. Contrast this with her gentle repremand to Orsino and instructions to the Templars to treat him well. It is true that she is not a worldly person - she has lived her whole life in the Chantry - but she doesn't condone what Petrice does and in fact does not object when the Qunari take the law into their own hands - clearly she feels that justice has been done and probably more so than if it had gone to trial, given the anti-Qunari feeling among the populace.
Trying to justify the bomb on the basis of her inaction is wrong. Anders thinks it a justification but then he lays into everyone for inaction because he no longer cares if innocent people die just so long as he gets his revolution. He knows very well that not only will he kill Elthinia and anyone else in the Chantry but his action will likely push Meredith over the edge, she will strike out against the mages and they will have no choice but to defend themselves. He has a rant at Orsino about his attempts to compromise to avoid bloodshed earlier in Act 3, which is why he makes pointed reference to the fact that he has removed the possibility of compromise.
There was an interesting conversation between him and Isabella when she makes this very point - what if your actions cause innocent people to suffer and die, don't they deserve justice too? At no point does he ever express regret for any of the lives lost as a consequence of his actions and that includes the lives of innocent mages who didn't turn to blood magic, become abominations or summon demons.
The main problem is that according to how you play the game, who you support, who you save from death, who you kill and who you talk to, you get a different set of information. Each scenario is different and so you can't say the Grand Cleric did or didn't do something because it is only true of your version of events, not someone else's. For example, today Sampson told me that the mages with Thrask are openly using blood magic and he turns a blind eye to it - because I deliberately made a dialogue choice that I hadn't done before. My opinion of Thrask and his conspiracy are thus altered from what they were in previous playthroughs. Some things only come from extra content that not everyone has so again you cannot judge a character in the game on this basis.
Some things do not change, though, and one of them is Anders and his bomb, another is Meredith calling for the RoA as a consequence of it and the fact that all mages, good and bad, are now about to die as a result of the death of the Grand Cleric, which they weren't when she was alive. The very fact that Orsino wanted to appeal to the Grand Cleric and Meredith wanted to prevent him would suggest to me that the Grand Cleric was stopping Meredith from taking much action that she wanted to, even if not actively, then simply by her presence in the city and unwillingness to condemn the mages out of hand. Had the bomb not occurred, who knows if Elthinia would not have supported Orsino against Meredith?
You forget that Meredith is slowly losing her mind (even more than she alread had lost it) when she acquires the relic. Even Cullen comments on the fact that she has grown increasingly paranoid and sees enemies where there are none. I've never heard her say that in my game about Orsino or the Mages, but if she did I don't chalk much up to it. Elthina didn't do anything to outright stop Meredith, and I highly doubt that when push came to shove she would have even made an actual decision. If she did, I'm hesitant to say that she wouldn't stand behind the Chantry.
It is mentioned that the Divine herself is considering leading an Exalted March on Kirkwall. Saying those Mages wouldn't have died if Elthina was alive is just blatant speculation, since regardless of what you think she "may have been doing behind the scenes" in the scenes we
see in game she is not doing anything. All she says is "Oh, can't get involved. I feel bad, but I'm not supposed to get involved" which I know is total BS considering Meredith is supposed to directly answer to her.
I disagree with you about Anders not having regret for what he did. He does have regret for them, but he felt it was necessary. This is why he has no problem if Hawke decides to kill him because he knows it will give the people he killed justice. Even the tone in his voice is one of sadness when you accuse him of murdering them. As far as Mages dying, mages are
already dying and being turned Tranquil. Like he says, a quick death now or a slow one later. This is how he views it, it's not "oh I just don't give a damn about the Mages that are inevitably going to die from what I did" because Anders himself is accepting of death. Does that mean it's okay that he pushed Mages into this position? No. But it also has to do with what your own stance is on the subject. He felt there would never be a compromise between the Chantry and Mages, and I for one, think he is correct. The Chantry has been oppressing Mages for quite a long time and it's highly unlikely one day they are just going to go "hey! Okay, you guys are all free. We won't constantly stalk your lives and make you stay in this tower!"
That's why I hate when people are all "omg I can't believe Anders killed this really nice lady" okay? She might have been nice, but I don't see how her being kind mattered when in the long run all she could apparently do was uh...do nothing. Her inaction is what led to increasing hostility between Meredith and Orsino, if the Chantry hadn't been blown up they would have still been getting into the exact same arguments. Cullen would have been a better Knight-Commander replacement to Meredith so if Elthina honestly felt like Meredith was getting out of hand, she could have easily replaced her. She didn't. By not speaking out against Meredith, it only makes me believe that some part of her must have condoned Meredith's actions since she did
nothing to stop her or her Templar's antics. Her answer is "I'm going to pray to the Maker and hope things sort themselves out." UHHH, THANKS for, once again, doing absolutely
nothing. I'm not saying this in some way "justifies" her death, but when people use that "she was so nice" line it is always amusing to me.
As far as Isabela goes, despite what she says to Anders (which I also agree is a good conversation) she agrees with what he did. She specifically states "Bold plan. At least I thought so." If you side with Templars I think she makes a remark like "Oh yes, how dare those Mages rebel!" and there are several other times in the game where she makes her distaste for Mages being imprisoned in the Circle known. She does it in front of the Grand Cleric at one point. Hawke asks why a Tevinter slave building is being used to hold Mages, and GC is all:
Grand Cleric: Short answer was, it was a building, a large one. Should it have sat empty? The Chantry found a use for what was once a horror.
Isabela:
Once a horror? Yes, I'm
sure it's filled with flowers and sunshine and happiness now!
But, whatever. Just my opinion on that. I have no love for the Grand Cleric (as is obvious) and think if she couldn't do her own job then she should have been replaced. It was her, after all, that pretty much promoted Meredith to the position of Knight-Commander. Even in Act 1 when Hawke first arrives to Kirkwall, the guard is all "Uh, well the Knight-Commander is the real power in this city..." and Hawke is like "Er, isn't that a Templar title?" Once the Viscount dies Elthina I guess just allows Meredith to have Kirkwall placed under martial law. Considering Meredith isn't letting anyone assume the position of Viscount and Elthina is doing nothing about it. But that's what she does the whole game, so yeah....not much else I can say.
To clarify what I mean though: I do think Elthina's mere presence has stopped Meredith from doing some
ultra drastic things, but I doubt it would have taken long for her to go completely nuts and just outright ignore anything and everything the Grand Cleric said. She was looking for an excuse to declare the RoA. Elthina is the kind of person who I consider like...she claims to be against things, and hate what's going on, but doesn't take actual action. The only time I consider her taking action is when someone
directly comes to her to ask her something. Such as "Hey, I want to declare RoA" so of course she is just like "What? Why? No!" Other than that, it's apparent she does nothing (and most of the time just talks around subjects instead of choosing a side) Meredith also might have gone behind her back just because she didn't want to deal with asking her at all, since Elthina was likely to say no given Meredith's utter lack of reasoning for declaring.
Modificata da Tidra, 09 agosto 2011 - 09:17 .
It's cute that she refused to flee to Orlais because she wanted to stay with the people of Kirkwall, but I think by being a lame duck grand cleric she already failed them, with her inaction resulting in countless deaths.
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