386 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I probably would have been much more sympathetic to Anders, if his bomb took out Elthina, Meredith, Orsino, Hawke, the Divine (somehow she would find her way there), Cassandra and himself.

Taking out all the idiots out in one swoop eh? 

[Addai]

Fleshdress wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I probably would have been much more sympathetic to Anders, if his bomb took out Elthina, Meredith, Orsino, Hawke, the Divine (somehow she would find her way there), Cassandra and himself.

You would be more sympathetic if he killed more people? Twisted. Tsk tsk.

I am sympathetic because of the corner he felt backed into. The Chantry/circles made him what he is in DA 2. I mean in DAA he feared Templars and the circles and his loss of freedom, but he was a lone mage and no extremist.  Merging with Justice made him powerful enough to take that fear and turn it into insanity. Justice just made him crazy zealot guy when it came to his actions. But the Chantry can be blamed for giving him something to be crazy about. 

And the Wardens.  On to blow up Weisshaupt and Vigil's Keep next. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Fleshdress wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I probably would have been much more sympathetic to Anders, if his bomb took out Elthina, Meredith, Orsino, Hawke, the Divine (somehow she would find her way there), Cassandra and himself.

You would be more sympathetic if he killed more people? Twisted. Tsk tsk.

When it comes to people like that, I consider it cleaning the gene pool.

[Sealy]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Fleshdress wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I probably would have been much more sympathetic to Anders, if his bomb took out Elthina, Meredith, Orsino, Hawke, the Divine (somehow she would find her way there), Cassandra and himself.

You would be more sympathetic if he killed more people? Twisted. Tsk tsk.

When it comes to people like that, I consider it cleaning the gene pool.

You just leave my Hawke out of it, it wasn't that he couldn't do something, he just didn't want to cause he wanted to be viscount. Let the mages and Templars blow themselves up, he thought the crown was dashing.

[KnightofPhoenix]

congealeddgtllvr wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I actually sympathise A LOT more with Uldred.

Uldred had a following (which he secretly organized under Templar noses, kudos to him). He tried to convince all mages to join him and he was very nearly succesful were it not for Wynne's idiocy. And he allied himself with Loghain and a state to support him, and his assistance against the blight and Orlais would improve popular opinion.

Uldred messed up at the very end when he was pushed into a corner and resorted to demons. But I respect and sympathise with him far more than Anders. Unlike him, Uldred actively sought and had allies.

I've never thought about it this way but it really is true.  Heh it's pretty sad when you look bad compared to Uldred.

Those damn demons!  Every mage thinks they can handle 'em!  

I think Uldred was a missed opportunity in DA:O. It would have been infinitely better if we met him in the mage Origin, and could talk with him at Ostagar.

As it stands, he's pretty much a cackling villain when we meet him in the Circle tower.
Which is a shame, because I respect and sympathize with him based on what I heard. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Fleshdress wrote..
You just leave my Hawke out of it, it wasn't that he couldn't do something, he just didn't want to cause he wanted to be viscount. Let the mages and Templars blow themselves up, he thought the crown was dashing.

Yea I am pretty sure he'd look back and say it was all part of the plan

Anywho, enough with my Hawke-hate.

[miraclemight]

Fleshdress wrote...

I am sympathetic because of the corner he felt backed into. The Chantry/circles made him what he is in DA 2. I mean in DAA he feared Templars and the circles and his loss of freedom, but he was a lone mage and no extremist.  Merging with Justice made him powerful enough to take that fear and turn it into insanity. Justice just made him crazy zealot guy when it came to his actions. But the Chantry can be blamed for giving him something to be crazy about. 

Edit: I think insanity may be the wrong word I am going for but I can't think of the right one so... eh. Cut me some slack my schooling stopped at grade 6.

Not to make this into an Anders discussion but I find hilariously ironic that everything he's done has doomed the mages one way or the other.

His continuous attempts to escape the Circle in Ferelden (esp. the one during swimming classes) made the Templars remove all the outdoor mage exercises. And now this mess with Kirkwall's Chantry... Thedas is either going to become an Imperium or a kill-mages-on-site place. He completely ruined that fragile illusion of peace.

And I'm not sure a person who doesn't even care about the fate of starving children as long as they're not mages is suitable for starting a 'righteous' revolution.

Now to go back on topic - If I wanted to use those explosives, I would've planted them under Meredith's desk in her office, not in the damn Chantry where one single explosion almost burnt the whole city.

[Sealy]

Omg, the thread has almost gone 10 minuts without a comment, quick somone start back up the debate.

Sweet old lady in the chantry thats isn't useful and is full of crap. (I mean the maker stopped the blight, just, just don't even.) Isn't exactly the target I would pick to get the point across that mages need their freedom. There is no way they will get an imperium out of his debacle, we may get a huge mage underground. That will be fun to play in for DA 3, instead of only one origin you only get one class, magical dwarves ahoy.

[SurelyForth]

miraclemight wrote...


Not to make this into an Anders discussion but I find hilariously ironic that everything he's done has doomed the mages one way or the other.

His continuous attempts to escape the Circle in Ferelden (esp. the one during swimming classes) made the Templars remove all the outdoor mage exercises. And now this mess with Kirkwall's Chantry... Thedas is either going to become an Imperium or a kill-mages-on-site place. He completely ruined that fragile illusion of peace.

And I'm not sure a person who doesn't even care about the fate of starving children as long as they're not mages is suitable for starting a 'righteous' revolution.

Now to go back on topic - If I wanted to use those explosives, I would've planted them under Meredith's desk in her office, not in the damn Chantry where one single explosion almost burnt the whole city.

Have you forgotten that he was a Warden, in which he supports saving Amaranthine over the Vigil, AND spent his entire time in Kirkwall running a free clinic for (non-mage) refugees? Outside of Aveline, he was probably doing more for Kirkwall than anyone else and, unlike Aveline, he earned no money or power for it.

And clearly his plan didn't end up too badly since three years later the Chantry is falling apart and there are still mages left fighting.

And anything that can be called "a fragile illusion" probably wasn't long for this world anyway. 

Modifié par SurelyForth, 11 août 2011 - 10:55 .

[berelinde]

nvm

Modifié par berelinde, 11 août 2011 - 10:53 .

[miraclemight]

SurelyForth wrote...

Have you forgotten that he was a Warden, in which he supports saving Amaranthine over the Vigil, AND spent his entire time in Kirkwall running a free clinic for (non-mage) refugees? Outside of Aveline, he was probably doing more for Kirkwall than anyone else and, unlike Aveline, he earned no money or power for it.

And clearly his plan didn't end up too badly since three years later the Chantry is falling apart and there are still mages left fighting.

And anything that can be called "a fragile illusion" probably wasn't long for this world anyway. 

Actually, the whole point of my post was that Anders made it difficult for mages from time to time. And no, I haven't forgotten those actions. Perhaps it would have been better to call it in-game inconsistency. Because while he does run a free clinic, he doesn't care about the fate of non-mage quest-related NPCs.

As for whether Anders sacrifice was worth it or not - I think we have to wait for the next game to come out and see. According to Cassandra, a lot innocent people have died in the war already.

[berelinde]

Er... who is he supposed to care about and doesn't? You'll get rivarly points from him for cruelty.

A lot of innocent people did die in the war. A lot would have died without it, too.

[miraclemight]

The fate of Orana, fate of Walter and Cricket, fate of Pryce...

And I guess it's for the better if I stop this post right here, because this thread is about Elthina.

[syllogi]

berelinde wrote...

A lot of innocent people did die in the war. A lot would have died without it, too.

If Anders had not given Hawke the Warden maps of the Deep Roads, the expedition would have never taken place.

If Bartrand hadn't gotten the Red Lyrium Idol in the Deep Roads, he wouldn't have sold it to Meredith.

If Meredith didn't turn that idol into a sword, she wouldn't have gone (quite as) insane.

If Meredith didn't go crazy, the mage's plight in the Kirkwall Circle wouldn't have been so dire.

If the mages weren't so oppressed, would mages and templars be at war at all?  It seems like many fewer people would have died if Anders had never come to Kirkwall at all.

(I'm not mentioning the Qunari because who the heck knows how they fit in the main plot)

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Whether or not what Anders does benefits mages or not depends on what Hawke does a bit. It also will probably depend on what the PC in Dragon Age 3 does.

So basically Anders big mistake, if indeed he made one, was in trusting heroes to do what is right. If future PCs turn to tide of the war to make things worse for mages, it'll be because they're cool with oppression, something Anders hopes and assumes a hero won't be.

Yes, I'm saying that Anders is genre-savvy.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 12 août 2011 - 12:09 .

[SurelyForth]

TeenZombie wrote...

berelinde wrote...

A lot of innocent people did die in the war. A lot would have died without it, too.

If Anders had not given Hawke the Warden maps of the Deep Roads, the expedition would have never taken place.

If Bartrand hadn't gotten the Red Lyrium Idol in the Deep Roads, he wouldn't have sold it to Meredith.

If Meredith didn't turn that idol into a sword, she wouldn't have gone (quite as) insane.

If Meredith didn't go crazy, the mage's plight in the Kirkwall Circle wouldn't have been so dire.

If the mages weren't so oppressed, would mages and templars be at war at all?  It seems like many fewer people would have died if Anders had never come to Kirkwall at all.

(I'm not mentioning the Qunari because who the heck knows how they fit in the main plot)

If Anders hadn't come to Kirkwall, Alrik would have been able to tranquil more mages because Anders wasn't around to kill him. The situation with the mages could have grown precarious because of that situation alone.

Also, you can't ignore the impact of a large, diseased and untreated refugee population would have on the overall situation in the city.

And we don't know for certain that Anders' maps were the only maps in all of Kirkwall. They were just asking him for advice, the maps were a bonus.

[Sepewrath]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
Would Anders still be a problem? On some level, yes. But I don't believe he would have done the chantry boom if the situation in Kirkwall was actively improving for mages, a sympathetic Hawke was Viscount, and there was no pressing threat of a Right of Annulment. He would have still been pulling crap I think, but less apocalyptic crap.

This is the big issue here, but first let me comment on you saying I'm ignoring the Viscount, I am because its irrelevant. The Viscount and the Chantry are two entities that are suppose to have nothing to do with each other. The Viscount could have no say in what happens in the Gallows and the Chantry should have no say in what happens with the Viscounts office. The only reason Meredith got away with the latter is because no one could stop her, the city guard couldn't take the Templar's. Even if there were a Viscount, they still couldn't say anything to Meredith, because they lack the forces to oppose her.

But to my main point, she could have fired Meredith and Orsino, even though the First Enchanter is not chosen by her, but instead the Knight Commander. But for arguments sake, lets say she does. It wouldn't change anything, simply put, people don't want to be there, no matter how cushy you make a prison, its still a prison. Ferelden didn't seem so bad, didn't stop Anders from constantly running away and Jowan escaping, Wynne got out there, first chance she could get. So you think if they put in a nice KC, that people will suddenly want to be there? No. You think sadistic Templar's who get their jollies from raping tranquils, beating mages, scaring them etc are going to stop? No. You think Anders would stop? No he wouldn't.

Anders hates the entire system, he didn't hate the Gallows, he hated every Circle, good, bad or indifferent, he wanted the whole system to collapse. Nothing would have changed, without the individuals involved, choosing to change themselves. Meredith had to stop being crazy, Orsino had to stop complaining and covering for people like Quentin, no more rapings and beatings and blood magic, the individuals had to stop. Nothing short of getting rid of every single person in the Gallows would have changed anything and that still wouldn't have stopped Anders. The futility of any action, is a fact that YOU seem to be ignoring.

[KnightofPhoenix]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
Yes, I'm saying that Anders is genre-savvy.

Unless he happens to be deadpool, that's a premise I do not agree with at all. But we've already been through that.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 12 août 2011 - 01:56 .

[Addai]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
So basically Anders big mistake, if indeed he made one, was in trusting heroes to do what is right.

Like protect the innocent public from mages blowing things up?  I do wish there had been a hero around to do that.

[Giggles_Manically]

Addai67 wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
So basically Anders big mistake, if indeed he made one, was in trusting heroes to do what is right.

Like protect the innocent public from mages blowing things up?  I do wish there had been a hero around to do that.

BA DUM TISS! 

[Masako52]

Addai67 wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
So basically Anders big mistake, if indeed he made one, was in trusting heroes to do what is right.

Like protect the innocent public from mages blowing things up?  I do wish there had been a hero around to do that.

More like, protect the innocent public from the Chantry's corruption?

I always think the "ANDERS BLEW UP INNOCENT PEOPLE" argument is a little exaggerated. I mean, there were probably five people in the Chantry, all of them nuns/priests/mothers/sisters/whatever they are. Including Elthina. Who had it coming. *points to thread's actual topic* I'm not saying what he did was not a big deal, but sometimes this argument makes it out to be like there were thousands of casualties, most terrible act in the game, etc. In the entirety of DA2, Anders' fireworks display is hardly a drop in the bucket of sh*t going down and people dying.

[syllogi]

Masako52 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
So basically Anders big mistake, if indeed he made one, was in trusting heroes to do what is right.

Like protect the innocent public from mages blowing things up?  I do wish there had been a hero around to do that.

More like, protect the innocent public from the Chantry's corruption?

I always think the "ANDERS BLEW UP INNOCENT PEOPLE" argument is a little exaggerated. I mean, there were probably five people in the Chantry, all of them nuns/priests/mothers/sisters/whatever they are. Including Elthina. Who had it coming. *points to thread's actual topic* I'm not saying what he did was not a big deal, but sometimes this argument makes it out to be like there were thousands of casualties, most terrible act in the game, etc. In the entirety of DA2, Anders' fireworks display is hardly a drop in the bucket of sh*t going down and people dying.

I really think you need to watch the cutscene again.  It looks like half the city was destroyed by the debris and explosion.  And after the Rite of Annulment is called (it would not have been done unless the Chantry was destroyed), you have abominations and demons all over the place throughout the city.  Any innocent people in the streets that night would be at risk.  I would say at the very least, hundreds of innocent people died that day in Kirkwall.

But even if *only* five innocent people other than Elthina (who does not deserve to die for being ineffective) are murdered, from the perspective of anyone who is effected, that's still five people killed by an abomination who can no longer discriminate right from wrong.  Maybe the history books will look at Anders differently, but that hasn't been determined yet.

[Addai]

Masako52 wrote...

More like, protect the innocent public from the Chantry's corruption?

I always think the "ANDERS BLEW UP INNOCENT PEOPLE" argument is a little exaggerated. I mean, there were probably five people in the Chantry, all of them nuns/priests/mothers/sisters/whatever they are. Including Elthina. Who had it coming. *points to thread's actual topic* I'm not saying what he did was not a big deal, but sometimes this argument makes it out to be like there were thousands of casualties, most terrible act in the game, etc. In the entirety of DA2, Anders' fireworks display is hardly a drop in the bucket of sh*t going down and people dying.

That's a bit spurious.  Regardless of who actually died in the explosion- and of the WTFery of setting off a massive explosion in a city square- Anders intends to start a war.  So innocent people are going to die, and probably a lot of them.

But feel free to edit my words:  I wish there had been a hero to protect the innocent public from mages (or abominations as the case may be) intent on blowing things up and starting wars.

Modifié par Addai67, 12 août 2011 - 04:55 .

[Ryzaki]

Kirkwall needed a hero...instead they got a zero...and not even the awesome Zero from Code Geass.

Damn song stuck in my head. >_>

Anyway I highly doubt that debris (that somehow managed to set Lowtown on fire.) magically didn't harm any innocent bystanders.  

Modifié par Ryzaki, 12 août 2011 - 05:19 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Kirkwall needed a leader, not a hero. They got neither.