386 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

TeenZombie wrote...
I believe that Elthina does not see herself as a military leader, despite her power over the templars.  

Elthina is basically the clergy version of the viscount.  For good or ill, Kirkwall has accepted martial law and its military units (such as they are) are operating mostly independently of any civilian authority.  Here I"m thinking of the city guard as well as the templars.

People who say they would like to see a proactive Grand Cleric might not like the sort of woman they get for that bargain.  She could very well have cracked down on both templars and mages, or called in the Exalted March.  I think you'd have to be a pretty cold-blooded person to be able to rule effectively in a cesspit like Kirkwall.  Elthina's incompetent, but it could be a case of "be careful what you wish for."

What would have been nice is if a politically inclined Hawke could've become viscount and begun to change how that office is run.  Start recruiting a standing army, not only so that the templars and the criminals aren't the only muscle in town, but also to model civilian authority over a military.  Even if this failed, it would have felt like Hawke was a competent player.  Oh well, if only...

Modifié par Addai67, 12 août 2011 - 04:18 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

It's too bad Hawke couldn't become Viscount because someone was actively blocking Hawke's appointment... someone who was appointed by someone else who refused to remove them and pick someone better. Oh well. How much better things would have been if the person who had the power to remove the stumbling block preventing Hawke's rise to Viscount had actually done so!

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 12 août 2011 - 04:46 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
What would have been nice is if a politically inclined Hawke could've become viscount and begun to change how that office is run.  Start recruiting a standing army, not only so that the templars and the criminals aren't the only muscle in town, but also to model civilian authority over a military.  Even if this failed, it would have felt like Hawke was a competent player.  Oh well, if only...

The opportunity was there. Imagine if Hawke, using his status as noble and champion, managed to create an opposition coalition comprised of the nobles who obviously do not like Meredith, of commoners whom we know were not satisfied with the situation and who sympathized with mages, of Fereldan refugees, of the guards who of course are pissed off at Meredith's usurpation and attempt to oust Aveline, of dissident Templars who we know exist since Act 2 (Thrask), of mages in the underground and otherwise, with Varric's merchant guild's financial support.

A mass grass roots movement, that would enable Hawke to restructure the system, so as to attempt to strike a balance between all groups within the coalition.

This revolution, even if it ends in failure (unless it collapses it and on itself), is a much more powerful signal to the Chantry than any bomb. The fact that mages are part of a coalition dispells all exagerrated fears and refutes the lie that mages and others can't co-exist let alone coordinate. It is also a clear declaration of a rising nationalism that seems to be the trend in Thedas.

Faced with this, the Chantry can either try to ignore it, which will be shooting itself in the foot, try to get on the revolution's good side, which is just delaying the inevitable, or attempt to strike at it with an Exalted March, which is also shooting itself in the foot. And the latter scenario would have been a very good catalyst for a Thedasian war that deals with much more than magic (which is apparently the case as per Dev comments).

But instead, we got...idol. Sigh

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 12 août 2011 - 04:57 .

[Tommy6860]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
What would have been nice is if a politically inclined Hawke could've become viscount and begun to change how that office is run.  Start recruiting a standing army, not only so that the templars and the criminals aren't the only muscle in town, but also to model civilian authority over a military.  Even if this failed, it would have felt like Hawke was a competent player.  Oh well, if only...

The opportunity was there. Imagine if Hawke, using his status as noble and champion, managed to create an opposition coalition comprised of the nobles who obviously do not like Meredith, of commoners whom we know were not satisfied with the situation and who sympathized with mages, of the guards who of course are pissed off at Meredith's usurpation and attempt to oust Aveline, of dissident Templars who we know exist since Act 2 (Thrask), of mages in the underground and otherwise, with Varric's merchant guild's financial support.

A mass grass roots movement, that would enable Hawke to restructure the system, so as to attempt to strike a balance between all groups within the coalition.

This revolution, even if it ends in failure (unless it collapses it and on itself), is a much more powerful signal to the Chantry than any bomb. The fact that mages are part of a coalition dispells all exagerrated fears and refutes the lie that mages and others can't co-exist let alone coordinate. It is also a clear declaration of a rising nationalism that seems to be the trend in Thedas.

Faced with this, the Chantry can either try to ignore it, which will be shooting itself in the foot, try to get on the revolution's good side, which is just delaying the inevitable, or attempt to strike at it with an Exalted March, which is also shooting itself in the foot. And the latter scenario would have been a very good catalyst for a Thedasian war that deals with much more than magic (which is apparently the case as per Dev comments).

But instead, we got...idol. Sigh

But why complicate an overly-simplistic storyline

[Addai]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

It's too bad Hawke couldn't become Viscount because someone was actively blocking Hawke's appointment... someone who was appointed by someone else who refused to remove them and pick someone better. Oh well. How much better things would have been if the person who had the power to remove the stumbling block preventing Hawke's rise to Viscount had actually done so!

So, Hawke who can live in Kirkwall as an apostate with complete impunity and who defeated the Arishok is utterly stymied by one old lady?

Hawke has access to Meredith.  Instead of meekly talking to her about her sister, cut her head off, give the job to Cullen (mentioning that he's your b*tch now or he won't have it for long) and then go about your business.

[Tommy6860]

Addai67 wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

It's too bad Hawke couldn't become Viscount because someone was actively blocking Hawke's appointment... someone who was appointed by someone else who refused to remove them and pick someone better. Oh well. How much better things would have been if the person who had the power to remove the stumbling block preventing Hawke's rise to Viscount had actually done so!

So, Hawke who can live in Kirkwall as an apostate with complete impunity and who defeated the Arishok is utterly stymied by one old lady?

Hawke has access to Meredith.  Instead of meekly talking to her about her sister, cut her head off, give the job to Cullen (mentioning that he's your b*tch now or he won't have it for long) and then go about your business.

You're my hero, and I approve of this poast.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Addai67 wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

It's too bad Hawke couldn't become Viscount because someone was actively blocking Hawke's appointment... someone who was appointed by someone else who refused to remove them and pick someone better. Oh well. How much better things would have been if the person who had the power to remove the stumbling block preventing Hawke's rise to Viscount had actually done so!

So, Hawke who can live in Kirkwall as an apostate with complete impunity and who defeated the Arishok is utterly stymied by one old lady?

Hawke has access to Meredith.  Instead of meekly talking to her about her sister, cut her head off, give the job to Cullen (mentioning that he's your b*tch now or he won't have it for long) and then go about your business.

Because the Chantry definitely wouldn't call an exalted march in response to that.

But Hawke doesn't do that. And its stated multiple times that Meredith is the reason there isn't a Viscount. So either Hawke's a lazy moron, or there's some legitimate concern to openly murdering a Knight Commander in a state already under surveilance by the Divine.

Yes, killing Meredith at any point in the game would have totally fixed everything. Nobody is questioning that. But by suggesting that Hawke do so, you're saying an illegal act of terrorism (murdering a public official in order to intimidate and control the populace) is preferable to a legal government official doing their job.

I rest all my cases.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 12 août 2011 - 05:08 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
Because the Chantry definitely wouldn't call an exalted march in response to that.

They would be shooting themselves in the foot, so let them.

 Hawke's a lazy moron

Yes.

[Xilizhra]

Well, things have totally not changed, I see.

I don't think Hawke could have taken Meredith. Meredith, alone, fought off Hawke's full team of seven for quite some time, and that was after her templars had either abandoned her or turned on her. Plus, Nathaniel and Zevran. Hawke simply isn't sufficiently powerful.

[Addai]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
Because the Chantry definitely wouldn't call an exalted march in response to that.

Probably.  We all know that in BioWare games, all roads lead to Rome.  But I'm suggesting Hawke is no better than Elthina because he/she could have done something and didn't, for no apparent reason.

Yes, killing Meredith at any point in the game would have totally fixed everything. Nobody is questioning that. But by suggesting that Hawke do so, you're saying an illegal act of terrorism (murdering a public official in order to intimidate and control the populace) is preferable to a legal government official doing their job.

Right, well this goes back to my earlier point that you're drawing a false dichotomy, assuming any criticism of Anders' actions comes from pacifism.  Haven't you ever considered it from a different POV than that, one that doesn't justify the Chantry or Janders?   Nor is Meredith within her legal rights, to argue a finer point.  Not that it matters.  Might makes right in this case, and in most cases really, even in our day.

[Addai]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, things have totally not changed, I see.

I don't think Hawke could have taken Meredith. Meredith, alone, fought off Hawke's full team of seven for quite some time, and that was after her templars had either abandoned her or turned on her. Plus, Nathaniel and Zevran. Hawke simply isn't sufficiently powerful.

She can't fight what she never sees coming.

[Xilizhra]

Addai67 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, things have totally not changed, I see.

I don't think Hawke could have taken Meredith. Meredith, alone, fought off Hawke's full team of seven for quite some time, and that was after her templars had either abandoned her or turned on her. Plus, Nathaniel and Zevran. Hawke simply isn't sufficiently powerful.

She can't fight what she never sees coming.

She's on a par with Stalin for paranoia. I'm sure she's thought of at least fifteen different ways Hawke might try to kill her.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...
She's on a par with Stalin for paranoia. I'm sure she's thought of at least fifteen different ways Hawke might try to kill her.

That's why she lets an apostate Hawke and Anders on the loose, and thinks it's a good idea to let an apostate Hawke deal with the mess caused by her incompetence.

To Stalin's credit, he was at least consistent and competent when it came to acting on his paranoia.

And I gtg, cheers.
And welcome back

[Xilizhra]

Remember that Meredith is going slowly insane from the sword. Also, remember what Bartrand's servant said about him: there were days when he hated the idol and wanted to get rid of it. I think Meredith's more moderate actions are her actively trying to resist the sword's song, and her will is almost certainly significantly stronger than Bartrand's. However, actively calling upon all of the sword's power makes her snap completely.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Xilizhra wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, things have totally not changed, I see.

I don't think Hawke could have taken Meredith. Meredith, alone, fought off Hawke's full team of seven for quite some time, and that was after her templars had either abandoned her or turned on her. Plus, Nathaniel and Zevran. Hawke simply isn't sufficiently powerful.

She can't fight what she never sees coming.

She's on a par with Stalin for paranoia. I'm sure she's thought of at least fifteen different ways Hawke might try to kill her.

This is a moment where Hawke's party should have defied the arbitrary headcount limit. To wit:

Varric: Hawke, there's Meredith cudgeling a mage kid! Why only take three of us? Isabela, Fenris, and I are right here. Let's get her!

[leggywillow]

Melca36 wrote...
 I sure would be interested in knowing how many physicians are in Thedas to treat the population. If every mage is killed whether through the Right of Anulment or some other purging, who will be healing the citizens of Thedas?

How many physicians are there in Thedas?

I would guess that there isn't much of a healing profession outside of mages, since the mages are so much more skilled at it.

When you ask Lirene if the healer (Anders) is a mage, she replies with "Do you think I'd stick my neck out for some purveyor of leeches and hensbane?"  Non-mage healers don't seem to be particularly well-respected.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...

Remember that Meredith is going slowly insane from the sword. Also, remember what Bartrand's servant said about him: there were days when he hated the idol and wanted to get rid of it. I think Meredith's more moderate actions are her actively trying to resist the sword's song, and her will is almost certainly significantly stronger than Bartrand's. However, actively calling upon all of the sword's power makes her snap completely.

Did I mention how much I despise the idol, its inclusion in the story and using it as an excuse to explain behavior?

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Remember that Meredith is going slowly insane from the sword. Also, remember what Bartrand's servant said about him: there were days when he hated the idol and wanted to get rid of it. I think Meredith's more moderate actions are her actively trying to resist the sword's song, and her will is almost certainly significantly stronger than Bartrand's. However, actively calling upon all of the sword's power makes her snap completely.

Did I mention how much I despise the idol, its inclusion in the story and using it as an excuse to explain behavior?

Just about every day since Dragon Age 2 came out more or less. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Expect the same until DA3 is released, where hopefully they do not commit the same mistake again, or if they commit an even graver error warranting my full attention (which honestly, would not surprise me).That is of course assuming that it doesn't completely eradicate all interest I had in the franchise.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 12 août 2011 - 09:06 .

[Addai]

leggywillow wrote...

Melca36 wrote...
 I sure would be interested in knowing how many physicians are in Thedas to treat the population. If every mage is killed whether through the Right of Anulment or some other purging, who will be healing the citizens of Thedas?

How many physicians are there in Thedas?

I would guess that there isn't much of a healing profession outside of mages, since the mages are so much more skilled at it.

When you ask Lirene if the healer (Anders) is a mage, she replies with "Do you think I'd stick my neck out for some purveyor of leeches and hensbane?"  Non-mage healers don't seem to be particularly well-respected.

Probably outside Ferelden, high nobles might have court mages who could do some healing.  For some reason, no one in Ferelden is shown having a court mage, as Redcliffe did during the rebellion.  Even if they did, it would about be the roughly equivalent to the situation in medieval Europe, where there were very few physicians who had had any training in classical medicine- something which had to come from the Mediterranean.  Only the richest could afford to keep such a person around.  Most people had to depend on "barbers" and midwives, with... varying results.

The first hospitals in Europe were maintained by the church, but you don't see the Chantry setting up free clinics with healer mages, though they could easily do so.  It's the sort of reform I would've hoped to see with my canon Warden, who's an Andrastian and a healer mage herself.

Modifié par Addai67, 12 août 2011 - 09:12 .

[Addai]

Xilizhra wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, things have totally not changed, I see.

I don't think Hawke could have taken Meredith. Meredith, alone, fought off Hawke's full team of seven for quite some time, and that was after her templars had either abandoned her or turned on her. Plus, Nathaniel and Zevran. Hawke simply isn't sufficiently powerful.

She can't fight what she never sees coming.

She's on a par with Stalin for paranoia. I'm sure she's thought of at least fifteen different ways Hawke might try to kill her.

Meredith's paranoia seems to run in the direction of seeing a blood mage under every rock.  Which... in Kirkwall... is not that far from the truth, actually.  She strikes me as being very secure in her own power, at least by act 3.

Modifié par Addai67, 12 août 2011 - 09:11 .

[Quething]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, things have totally not changed, I see.

I don't think Hawke could have taken Meredith. Meredith, alone, fought off Hawke's full team of seven for quite some time, and that was after her templars had either abandoned her or turned on her. Plus, Nathaniel and Zevran. Hawke simply isn't sufficiently powerful.

She's all idol-happy when that happens. Her eyes are glowing, she's cracking solid stone to a depth of inches with casual sword blows, and she's bringing statues to life. This is not, one assumes, a normal state of being for her. Cullen would probably have noticed, incompetent though he can be.

And Hawke et al do still manage to take her down even in this powered-up state, so I don't see the issue. Main!Hawke doesn't have a huge interest in the mage issue, she's more throwing her clout around for the sake of refugees and her impoverished neighbors (since this is something the game allows me to pretend that she's doing, unlike caring about the mage issue), but her family is a major berserk button for her. When Meredith mentioned Bethany in an attempt to coerce Hawke's assistance, Hawke had: the war-hardened peerless warrior and captain of the guard, a brutally effective lyrium-powered berserker to whom enemy armor is a bad joke, and an obscenely powerful blood mage at her side. Had she been allowed to act as she actually would have acted in that situation, I'm confident she would have been fine. That's basically the party she beat Idol!Meredith with, since she went down so fast only the first guest character had even showed up, and early Act III Meredith is rather less a threat.

[Melca36]

leggywillow wrote...

Melca36 wrote...
 I sure would be interested in knowing how many physicians are in Thedas to treat the population. If every mage is killed whether through the Right of Anulment or some other purging, who will be healing the citizens of Thedas?

How many physicians are there in Thedas?

I would guess that there isn't much of a healing profession outside of mages, since the mages are so much more skilled at it.

When you ask Lirene if the healer (Anders) is a mage, she replies with "Do you think I'd stick my neck out for some purveyor of leeches and hensbane?"  Non-mage healers don't seem to be particularly well-respected.

Oh I forgot Lirene's line. Thanks for bringing that up.  It would be interesting to see how long people would be able to exist without mages.

Remember when Rioridin mentioned in Origins that he was looking for a physician? I was thinking Wynne could have taken care of his injuries because she was right there. lol

[Addai]

Melca36 wrote...
Oh I forgot Lirene's line. Thanks for bringing that up.  It would be interesting to see how long people would be able to exist without mages.

Remember when Rioridin mentioned in Origins that he was looking for a physician? I was thinking Wynne could have taken care of his injuries because she was right there. lol

I don't recall that line, but it sounds to me like there were indeed physicians, that is medical healers who didn't use magic.

And even if there weren't- people did and still do survive and propagate without trained doctors around, though obviously not without some extra suffering.  So I'm not sure what you mean by the bolded line.

Since I brought it up earlier, here's an article on medieval hospitals (actually a transcript of a lecture) that's pretty interesting.  In England there were a lot of them and all run by the church- they were actually destroyed when the crown took over the monasteries during the Reformation.  I say that because people often assume, quite wrongly from what I can see, that the Chantry= medieval Roman Catholicism.  And here is one case where the Anderses of real history were clergy, and the "reformers" were the ones persecuting them.

Actually, let me add another note.  It's a tangent so I won't belabor it, but I've done a fair amount of reading about the Tudor era and the Reformation in England.  I've come across historians who make the case that the sort of thing you see in early modern history, like witch burnings, large-scale religious wars and debtor prisons, are a direct result of the breakdown in everyday social relations that happened when one religious/social order was violently exchanged for another.  Henry VIII and moreso his children conducted basically a door-to-door scourging of the "old order."  A lot of it reads like Stalinist Russia, with people informing on each other.  This is some of my background when I react negatively to the idea of imposing a new social and religious order on a large population.  Many people simply assume the transition to the modern era was a turbulent but generally positive development, without considering what was lost in the process.  The modern era has seen more blood spilled than a medieval could have dreamt of.  Eventually human relations tend to find the equilibrium, but the idea that society has moved in a steadily progressive arc, so that any change is going to ultimately end up for the good, is IMO a fallacy.  And that's what I see in some of these discussions about the Chantry.

Modifié par Addai67, 12 août 2011 - 11:08 .

[Wulfram]

Addai67 wrote...

What would have been nice is if a politically inclined Hawke could've become viscount and begun to change how that office is run.  Start recruiting a standing army, not only so that the templars and the criminals aren't the only muscle in town, but also to model civilian authority over a military.  Even if this failed, it would have felt like Hawke was a competent player.  Oh well, if only...

Hawkes reign:
Day 1:  Declare intent to raise standing army.  Puts up taxes to pay for it
Day 2:  Citizens of Kirkwall call on Meredith to save them from the tyrant
Day 3:   Hawke's head on pike