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[CrimsonZephyr]

Why would Hawke ever want to be Viscount of Kirkwall. He should have gone back to Ferelden. Cooler people, less crazy.

[leggywillow]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Why would Hawke ever want to be Viscount of Kirkwall. He should have gone back to Ferelden. Cooler people, less crazy.

Apparently Viscount Hawke realized this, since he's MIA by the time Cassandra rolls into town.

[CrimsonZephyr]

leggywillow wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Why would Hawke ever want to be Viscount of Kirkwall. He should have gone back to Ferelden. Cooler people, less crazy.

Apparently Viscount Hawke realized this, since he's MIA by the time Cassandra rolls into town.

He's probably sharing a drink with Bann Teagan.

"I **** you not, my lord, I hit that abomination so hard, it EXPLODED!"

"Nobody tells you what to do! NO-HO-HO-BODY!"

"You'd be surprised how wrong you are about that one. 'Hawke this, Hawke that,' everything always falls to me."

[Addai]

Wulfram wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

What would have been nice is if a politically inclined Hawke could've become viscount and begun to change how that office is run.  Start recruiting a standing army, not only so that the templars and the criminals aren't the only muscle in town, but also to model civilian authority over a military.  Even if this failed, it would have felt like Hawke was a competent player.  Oh well, if only...

Hawkes reign:
Day 1:  Declare intent to raise standing army.  Puts up taxes to pay for it
Day 2:  Citizens of Kirkwall call on Meredith to save them from the tyrant
Day 3:   Hawke's head on pike

Like people are that fond of Meredith?  Anyway, Hawke defeats her, so she could try.

[Wulfram]

Addai67 wrote...

Like people are that fond of Meredith?  Anyway, Hawke defeats her, so she could try.

Fond of Meredith, no.  Prefer her to someone who is going to raise their taxes and threaten their freedom with a standing army, probably.

Modifié par Wulfram, 14 août 2011 - 09:07 .

[CrimsonZephyr]

Wulfram wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Like people are that fond of Meredith?  Anyway, Hawke defeats her, so she could try.

Fond of Meredith, no.  Prefer her to someone who is going to raise their taxes and threaten their freedom with a standing army, probably.

Considering Meredith's tenure as pseudo-viscount heralded the day of the jackboot for Kirkwall, they never had much freedom to begin with. And being after to give the Templars a nice thwacking with a standing army would be an attractive proposition for any of the nobles.

[LobselVith8]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Why would Hawke ever want to be Viscount of Kirkwall. He should have gone back to Ferelden. Cooler people, less crazy.

I'll never understand the appeal of any decision that keeps Hawke in Kirkwall.

[Wulfram]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Considering Meredith's tenure as pseudo-viscount heralded the day of the jackboot for Kirkwall, they never had much freedom to begin with. And being after to give the Templars a nice thwacking with a standing army would be an attractive proposition for any of the nobles.

If you've got a choice of tyrants then pick the one who isn't going to raise your taxes.  And raising a standing army is in this period a pretty clear mark of a tyrant.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Wulfram wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Considering Meredith's tenure as pseudo-viscount heralded the day of the jackboot for Kirkwall, they never had much freedom to begin with. And being after to give the Templars a nice thwacking with a standing army would be an attractive proposition for any of the nobles.

If you've got a choice of tyrants then pick the one who isn't going to raise your taxes.  And raising a standing army is in this period a pretty clear mark of a tyrant.

The mark of a rational leader who can persuade others than having a standing army is exactly what Kirkwall needed to defend itself against the Qunari and against a foreign order that no one likes which illegally usurped power and stripped the city of its sovereignity. Fear and proto-nationalist sentiments are enough to sway most people.

The short sighted fools who refuse can be silenced.

[Wulfram]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The mark of a rational leader who can persuade others than having a standing army is exactly what Kirkwall needed to defend itself against the Qunari and against a foreign order that no one likes which illegally usurped power and stripped the city of its sovereignity. Fear and proto-nationalist sentiments are enough to sway most people.

The short sighted fools who refuse can be silenced.

Yes, let's defend our sovereignty!  By handing absolute power to this foreigner!  That's totally worth impoverishing ourselves!

[KnightofPhoenix]

Wulfram wrote...
Yes, let's defend our sovereignty!  By handing absolute power to this foreigner!  That's totally worth impoverishing ourselves!

A foreigner who saved the city and lived in it for years. A foreigner whose noble family has been in Kirkwall for generations, and only recently had an offshoot in Ferelden.

Security is worth paying money for absolutely. For not only is Kirkwall a cesspool, but in these conditions, good luck getting revenue from trade and attracting business. They are going to be impoverished anyhow (indeed, Amaranthine is starting to surpass it, and it just came out of a destructive war).

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 14 août 2011 - 05:31 .

[Xilizhra]

You're forgetting that Kirkwall makes people go nuts in many exciting ways. Relying on the peoples' rationality doesn't strike me as a winning strategy.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...

You're forgetting that Kirkwall makes people go nuts in many exciting ways. Relying on the peoples' rationality doesn't strike me as a winning strategy.

In this "what the game should have had" scenario, the writers would obviously need to not be so lazy as to make everyone an irrational idiot.

[Xilizhra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

You're forgetting that Kirkwall makes people go nuts in many exciting ways. Relying on the peoples' rationality doesn't strike me as a winning strategy.

In this "what the game should have had" scenario, the writers would obviously need to not be so lazy as to make everyone an irrational idiot.

I've noticed that these "what the game should have had" scenarios seem extremely focused on your own personal taste/choices.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

You're forgetting that Kirkwall makes people go nuts in many exciting ways. Relying on the peoples' rationality doesn't strike me as a winning strategy.

In this "what the game should have had" scenario, the writers would obviously need to not be so lazy as to make everyone an irrational idiot.

I've noticed that these "what the game should have had" scenarios seem extremely focused on your own personal taste/choices.

Yes. I am a customer who naturally wants to pay for things that are as close to my tastes as possible.

[Xilizhra]

Yes. I am a customer who naturally wants to pay for things that are as close to my tastes as possible.

Right, but having those doesn't make the game objectively of higher quality, necessarily. Surely some Hawkes would prefer to stay out of politics, and I don't think the game should require one to play them a lot.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...

Yes. I am a customer who naturally wants to pay for things that are as close to my tastes as possible.

Right, but having those doesn't make the game objectively of higher quality, necessarily. Surely some Hawkes would prefer to stay out of politics, and I don't think the game should require one to play them a lot.

There are many things that would make the game objectively better, but they are known and pretty much universally accepted.

Have two paths. One for a Hawke who wants to stay out of politics. And the other for one who wants to. Instead of giving us the illusion of a choice when Varric asks us what we want, where we can tell him we want power, only to not do anything to get it.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 14 août 2011 - 05:42 .

[Wulfram]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

A foreigner who saved the city and lived in it for years. A foreigner whose noble family has been in Kirkwall for generations, and only recently had an offshoot in Ferelden.

Still more foreign than Meredith, a native who was saving Kirkwall from a tyrant a decade before Hawke washed up there

Security is worth paying money absolutely. For not only is Kirkwall a cesspool, but in these conditions, good luck getting revenue from trade. They are going to be impoverished anyhow.

A standing army under a jumped up mercenary like Hawke just means another set of bandits nicking your stuff, not security.  It's not like it'll protect you from any meaningful power.

[Xilizhra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Yes. I am a customer who naturally wants to pay for things that are as close to my tastes as possible.

Right, but having those doesn't make the game objectively of higher quality, necessarily. Surely some Hawkes would prefer to stay out of politics, and I don't think the game should require one to play them a lot.

There are many things that would make the game objectively better, but they are known and pretty much universally accepted.

Have two paths. One for a Hawke who wants to stay out of politics. And the other for one who wants to. Instead of giving us the illusion of a choice when Varric asks us what we want, where we can tell him we want power, only to not do anything to get it.

Run those things by me again?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Wulfram wrote...
Still more foreign than Meredith, a native who was saving Kirkwall from a tyrant a decade before Hawke washed up there

No, since Meredith answers to a foreign order and just usurped power without any legitimacy or legality.

A standing army under a jumped up mercenary like Hawke just means another set of bandits nicking your stuff, not security.  It's not like it'll protect you from any meaningful power.

Well of course if Hawke is as incompetent as he already is, he wouldn't be able to make an army in the first place let alone control it. But when I say army, I mean an expansion of the guards. Of course corruption is unavoidable, but with people like Aveline and a Hawke who doesn't sit on his ass, I think it's manegeable and ultimately beneficial.

An expansion of the guards would increase domestic security and stability first and foremost (which is necessary for trade), and increase Kirkwall's political leverage, instead of have its only defense dependent on a foreign order. Also, if Hawke was smart, he'd make a rapprocehment with all Free Marches cities and conduct tighter mutual security arrangements.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...
Run those things by me again?

No recycled environments, better encounter design, meaningful choices (as per Laidlaw's comment), more development for Orsino and Meredith....etc etc.
I'd think most disliek the idea of the idol or at least its execution.

[Xilizhra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Run those things by me again?

No recycled environments, better encounter design, meaningful choices (as per Laidlaw's comment), more development for Orsino and Meredith....etc etc.
I'd think most disliek the idea of the idol or at least its execution.

Environments are the last thing I'd complain about. The more time they spend on those, the more time it takes away from the story, if they're pressed for time.

As for meaningful choices... the tricky part is that the cost of choice is detail. The more choices there are, the less content can be put into any of them, and you can't really have the option of choosing away truly vital events.

[LobselVith8]

Wulfram wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

A foreigner who saved the city and lived in it for years. A foreigner whose noble family has been in Kirkwall for generations, and only recently had an offshoot in Ferelden.

Still more foreign than Meredith, a native who was saving Kirkwall from a tyrant a decade before Hawke washed up there

And now Meredith has become a tyrant. Hawke has enough clout as the Champion of Kirkwall to persuade people to want Meredith's removal if he supports Orsino, in addition to the templars and mages who united to oust Meredith from her position as a dictator long before Orsino's speech.

[RagingCyclone]

Meredith is native to Kirkwall? Where is this stated? I know she is Knight Commander, but Cullen is Knight Captain, can wrestle control from her near the end, and we already know he came from Ferelden.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...
Environments are the last thing I'd complain about. The more time they spend on those, the more time it takes away from the story, if they're pressed for time.

As for meaningful choices... the tricky part is that the cost of choice is detail. The more choices there are, the less content can be put into any of them, and you can't really have the option of choosing away truly vital events.

Sad that I didn't see the story that required them to be lazy when it comes to environments.

2 choices with 2 very meaningful consequences is possible. In any case, that depends on people's definition of what constitutes meaningful choices. But in general, people want an imprvement when it comes to that. What kind of improvement is a different thing.