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[LobselVith8]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I think that alone is a significant consequence. Is Hawke willing to throw aside wealth and prestige for what he believes in?

I really like that idea. I like the notion of Kirkwall being shaped by Hawke's choices, rather than everything remaining stagnant. How do you think Hawke would be received by the templars? Would he become a templar? If Hawke sided with mages, would he inevitably become a leader of the resistance, having people under his command and making critical decisions about what tactics and targets should be condoned?

[KnightofPhoenix]

LobselVith8 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I think that alone is a significant consequence. Is Hawke willing to throw aside wealth and prestige for what he believes in?

I really like that idea. I like the notion of Kirkwall being shaped by Hawke's choices, rather than everything remaining stagnant. How do you think Hawke would be received by the templars? Would he become a templar? If Hawke sided with mages, would he inevitably become a leader of the resistance, having people under his command and making critical decisions about what tactics and targets should be condoned?

Something I doubt Bioware could ever do, but yes. Maybe something similar to Assassin's Creed brotherhood. Or Awakening, but with actual consequences to those choices. If Hawke is in the mage resistance, he can interact with and condone different factions within. Would Hawke be as radical as Resolutionists or not? 

Since one needs lyrium injection to become an official Templar, I'd much rather have Hawke act as a freelancer who is allied to the Templars and not a Templar personally. A noble allied with Meredith. As a consequence, maybe have his estate be bombed by Resolutionists.  As for the choices that Hawke could make, he can explore and side with different factions within the Chantry (perhaps as a noble fund the one he agrees with?).

There are a lot of different possibilities to make this work, I think. I would not mind if a single playthrough is minimized to be 30 hours long, if I can play it two times more and have a different experience.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 14 août 2011 - 07:22 .

[LobselVith8]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Something I doubt Bioware could ever do, but yes. Maybe something similar to Assassin's Creed brotherhood. Or Awakening, but with actual consequences to those choices. If Hawke is in the mage resistance, he can interact with and condone different factions within. Would Hawke be as radical as Resolutionists or not? 

Since one needs lyrium injection to become an official Templar, I'd much rather have Hawke act as a freelancer who is allied to the Templars and not a Templar personally. A noble allied with Meredith. As a consequence, maybe have his estate be bombed by Resolutionists.  As for the choices that Hawke could make, he can explore and side with different factions within the Chantry (perhaps as a noble fund the one he agrees with?).

There are a lot of different possibilities to make this work, I think. I would not mind if a single playthrough is minimized to be 30 hours long, if I can play it two times more and have a different experience.

I'd prefer it if choices were more significant as well, even if the length of a respective playthrough wasn't as long. I think the time with Dragon Age 2 is mostly taken up with the fetch quests anyway. Would you have changed Act I to allow the player to get to know Hawke's family? Would Bethany and Carver take up opposing sides to the dichotomy in Kirkwall?

[KnightofPhoenix]

LobselVith8 wrote...
I'd prefer it if choices were more significant as well, even if the length of a respective playthrough wasn't as long. I think the time with Dragon Age 2 is mostly taken up with the fetch quests anyway. Would you have changed Act I to allow the player to get to know Hawke's family? Would Bethany and Carver take up opposing sides to the dichotomy in Kirkwall?

I'd shorten Act 1, yea. And I would prefer if Bethany and Carver both survive, and they take opposing sides. Carver becomes a Templar and Bethany joins the resistance.

Not only would this be a tragic event in Hawke's life, but imo it would also underline the inherent tragedy of the conflict as a whole. That siblings could be on opposing sides. But instead, look at what we got.

Bah, all this is making me even more annoyed at the game now.

[LobselVith8]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I'd shorten Act 1, yea. And I would prefer if Bethany and Carver both survive, and they take opposing sides. Carver becomes a Templar and Bethany joins the resistance.

Not only would this be a tragic event in Hawke's life, but imo it would also underline the inherent tragedy of the conflict as a whole. That siblings could be on opposing sides. But instead, look at what we got.

Bah, all this is making me even more annoyed at the game now.

I think that's inevitable, given all the squandered potential of Dragon Age 2. Even Legacy hasn't done anything to address the problems with the narrative or the significance of choice.

[phaonica]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Not only would this be a tragic event in Hawke's life, but imo it would also underline the inherent tragedy of the conflict as a whole. That siblings could be on opposing sides. But instead, look at what we got.

Bah, all this is making me even more annoyed at the game now.

Wow, Knight, I've been reading the last few pages of 'your' Act 2, and I think that would have been so exciting to play. Not only would playing a mage in Kirkwall seem to have a more tangible impact on Hawke's life (which I though was severely lacking), but it would also seem like Hawke was actually *doing* something.

Though I don't know if that many branches of narrative that depend on replay is something that game devs would have the resources (including the go-ahead from their investors) to do, unfortunately.

Modifié par phaonica, 14 août 2011 - 08:23 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

phaonica wrote...
Wow, Knight, I've been reading the last few pages of 'your' Act 2, and I think that would have been so exciting to play. Not only would playing a mage in Kirkwall seem to have a more tangible impact on Hawke's life (which I though was severely lacking), but it would also seem like Hawke was actually *doing* something.

Though I don't know if that many branches of narrative that depend on replay is something that game devs would have the resources (including the go-ahead from their investors) to do, unfortunately.

Thanks.

The Witcher 2 has two branching narratives. Bioware could have that, or one more path, but with less content in each (but more content as a whole).  Of course it's 2 year dev time and the resources they are recieving make it more or less impossible, but frankly I no longer expect much from Bioware. 

[phaonica]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Witcher 2 has two branching narratives. Bioware could have that, or one more path, but with less content in each (but more content as a whole).  Of course it's 2 year dev time and the resources they are recieving make it more or less impossible, but frankly I no longer expect much from Bioware. 

If the game devs had the resources to make 2 branching narratives, would you prefer that they be designed so that the story, environment, conflict resolution and whatnot change, depending on what branch you follow; or would you prefer to see the story play out mostly the same, but from a different point of view (which might make sequals that carry over choices easier to implement)?

Modifié par phaonica, 14 août 2011 - 08:37 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

phaonica wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Witcher 2 has two branching narratives. Bioware could have that, or one more path, but with less content in each (but more content as a whole).  Of course it's 2 year dev time and the resources they are recieving make it more or less impossible, but frankly I no longer expect much from Bioware. 

If the game devs had the resources to make 2 branching narratives, would you prefer that they be designed so that the story, environment, conflict resolution and whatnot change, depending on what branch you follow, or would you prefer to see the story play out mostly the same, but from a different point of view (which might make sequals that carry over choices easier to implement)?

Depends on if they want to make a sequel or not. If it's a stand alone game, I'd rather have the former.

In The Witcher 2, a balance was kind of reached, to some extent. The main story plays out mostly the same, but from a very different point of view, in addition to also being in a different location, with different main and side quests, and different characters we interact with, as well as story bits. There are also critical choices in the game that affect the game world and political state, which hopefuly will play a role in the sequel.

[Sepewrath]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I'd shorten Act 1, yea. And I would prefer if Bethany and Carver both survive, and they take opposing sides. Carver becomes a Templar and Bethany joins the resistance.

Not only would this be a tragic event in Hawke's life, but imo it would also underline the inherent tragedy of the conflict as a whole. That siblings could be on opposing sides. But instead, look at what we got.

Bah, all this is making me even more annoyed at the game now.

They wouldn't even be the same characters to do that and the whole, "Its tearing the family apart" business, meh. A close family isn't going to fall apart for something, they really don't need to involve themselves in. And "choices that matter" is just another way of saying god mode. And that whole dichotomy would be broken with your character in god mode, because remember you have absolute say and absolute control over the situation. The whole event would have no weight, it would be nothing more than your standard RPG ego stroke. So personally, I'm happy they avoided that.

[KnightofPhoenix]

No one asked for "god mode" at all, I in fact just said earlier that it would reach a very similar conclusion.

Choices that matter =/= absolute control over the situation. That is a false dichotomy.

[maxernst]

I agree KoP. The point is not to have god-mode, the point is to be able to effectively roleplay a Hawke who cares about his family and cares about Kirkwall.

[Maria13]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
I'd prefer it if choices were more significant as well, even if the length of a respective playthrough wasn't as long. I think the time with Dragon Age 2 is mostly taken up with the fetch quests anyway. Would you have changed Act I to allow the player to get to know Hawke's family? Would Bethany and Carver take up opposing sides to the dichotomy in Kirkwall?

I'd shorten Act 1, yea. And I would prefer if Bethany and Carver both survive, and they take opposing sides. Carver becomes a Templar and Bethany joins the resistance.

Not only would this be a tragic event in Hawke's life, but imo it would also underline the inherent tragedy of the conflict as a whole. That siblings could be on opposing sides. But instead, look at what we got.

Bah, all this is making me even more annoyed at the game now.

Agreed that would have been mighty good, encapsulating as it does the tragedy of all civil strife where brother turns against brother (or sister in this case). And I have to disagree with Sep, close families can, and have, fallen apart over things such as politics and religion.

Modifié par Maria13, 16 août 2011 - 05:18 .

[randomcheeses]

I don't think Elthina deserved to be murdered, but she certainly should've been replaced as Grand Cleric by someone more proactive. Her ineffectiveness and unwillingness to step in and do something (which even Sebastian of all people pulls her up over) certainly made things a lot worse than they would've been if she'd exercised her power and ordered Meredith to calm the hell down.

[jlb524]

Grand Cleric Elthina thought the Maker stopped the Blight. Even though the Chantry teaches that he's forsaken everyone.

I got nothing more to add.

[Addai]

jlb524 wrote...

Grand Cleric Elthina thought the Maker stopped the Blight. Even though the Chantry teaches that he's forsaken everyone.

I got nothing more to add.

How does that say anything?  Andrastians still believe the Maker is responsible for stuff, or they wouldn't pray "Andraste guide us" or such things.

Having a human agent (the Warden) doesn't rule out divine work through that person.  I'm speaking generally now of how religions view events.

News flash: Grand Cleric Elthina is a believing Andrastian?  Such madness!

[syllogi]

jlb524 wrote...

Grand Cleric Elthina thought the Maker stopped the Blight. Even though the Chantry teaches that he's forsaken everyone.

I got nothing more to add.

People pray to Andraste and the Maker because they have faith that the Maker does care and guide the world, or else there would be no belief in miracles like the healing properties of the Ashes of Andraste.

Leliana thinks that she dreamed or received a vision from the Maker that told her to join the fight against the Blight.  It was apparently the right thing for her to do, and she believes it was the Maker's will.  I don't think she or Elthina were crazy for having religious beliefs.

[LobselVith8]

Addai67 wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Grand Cleric Elthina thought the Maker stopped the Blight. Even though the Chantry teaches that he's forsaken everyone.

I got nothing more to add.

How does that say anything?  Andrastians still believe the Maker is responsible for stuff, or they wouldn't pray "Andraste guide us" or such things.

Having a human agent (the Warden) doesn't rule out divine work through that person.  I'm speaking generally now of how religions view events.

News flash: Grand Cleric Elthina is a believing Andrastian?  Such madness!

I think the point jlb524 is making is that, officially, the Maker abandoned the world, and he'll only return when the Chant is sung from the four corners of the world. The divide between what's officially said by the Chantry of Andraste and what some Andrastians think is addressed in Redcliffe, where Ser Perth and the Knights assume the Maker can watch over them with "magical amulets" while Mother Hannah makes it clear that isn't the case, because the Maker has left humanity.

[Wulfram]

TeenZombie wrote...

Leliana thinks that she dreamed or received a vision from the Maker that told her to join the fight against the Blight.  It was apparently the right thing for her to do, and she believes it was the Maker's will.  I don't think she or Elthina were crazy for having religious beliefs.

Leliana acknowledges her beliefs conflict with chantry doctrine.

[syllogi]

Wulfram wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...

Leliana thinks that she dreamed or received a vision from the Maker that told her to join the fight against the Blight.  It was apparently the right thing for her to do, and she believes it was the Maker's will.  I don't think she or Elthina were crazy for having religious beliefs.

Leliana acknowledges her beliefs conflict with chantry doctrine.

But why don't people call her insane for her beliefs?   Most likely because she's considered a friend of the Warden, and she's not hurting anyone with her ideas.  Elthina probably wasn't speaking literally when she claimed that the Maker stopped the Blight, and meant that the Warden and the others who helped kill the Archdemon were guided by the Maker.  I just don't see this belief as a black mark against her, or against Leliana for her belief that the Maker takes an active role in the world.

[Wulfram]

TeenZombie wrote...

But why don't people call her insane for her beliefs?   Most likely because she's considered a friend of the Warden, and she's not hurting anyone with her ideas.  Elthina probably wasn't speaking literally when she claimed that the Maker stopped the Blight, and meant that the Warden and the others who helped kill the Archdemon were guided by the Maker.  I just don't see this belief as a black mark against her, or against Leliana for her belief that the Maker takes an active role in the world.

Quite a few people do call her crazy.

In fact, after telling the Warden that the Maker told her to go with him she herself says that she knows that "that sounds absolutely insane"

Modifié par Wulfram, 17 août 2011 - 07:32 .

[Sinaxi]

Wulfram wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...

But why don't people call her insane for her beliefs?   Most likely because she's considered a friend of the Warden, and she's not hurting anyone with her ideas.  Elthina probably wasn't speaking literally when she claimed that the Maker stopped the Blight, and meant that the Warden and the others who helped kill the Archdemon were guided by the Maker.  I just don't see this belief as a black mark against her, or against Leliana for her belief that the Maker takes an active role in the world.

Quite a few people do call her crazy.

In fact, after telling the Warden that the Maker told her to go with him she herself says that she knows that "that sounds absolutely insane"

Lmao, Alistair thought Princess Stabbity was totally off her rocker. Morrigan was just like..."Oh, let me go vomit while you continue talking about your delusions :sick:"

I always found it interesting how the Spirit in the Sacred Ashes quest accuses her of completely lying about it in an attempt to gain attention. 

Modifié par Tidra, 17 août 2011 - 07:34 .

[Wulfram]

Tidra wrote...

I always found it interesting how the Spirit in the Sacred Ashes quest accuses her of completely lying about it in an attempt to gain attention. 

My interpretation is that the spirit just makes you confront your own doubts.

[Melca36]

jlb524 wrote...

Grand Cleric Elthina thought the Maker stopped the Blight. Even though the Chantry teaches that he's forsaken everyone.

I got nothing more to add.

Its a good thing my Warden never had any sort of conversation with a Grand Cleric



Grand Cleric of Ferelden: The Maker put you on your path dear girl. He has his reasons.

Warden Cousland: So what was the reason for The Maker having my family slaughtered by the hands of Arl Howe?

[syllogi]

Wulfram wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...

But why don't people call her insane for her beliefs?   Most likely because she's considered a friend of the Warden, and she's not hurting anyone with her ideas.  Elthina probably wasn't speaking literally when she claimed that the Maker stopped the Blight, and meant that the Warden and the others who helped kill the Archdemon were guided by the Maker.  I just don't see this belief as a black mark against her, or against Leliana for her belief that the Maker takes an active role in the world.

Quite a few people do call her crazy.

In fact, after telling the Warden that the Maker told her to go with him she herself says that she knows that "that sounds absolutely insane"

I meant players, not ingame.  I know that her beliefs are considered unorthodox by Andrastians.

Players think Leliana's beliefs are cute and harmless, thus they don't attack her or call her crazy, even if it's acknowledged in the game that characters think what she's saying is absurd.

Players think Elthina's one statement, that can be easily seen as a simple belief that a higher power guides all people, means that she literally thinks the Maker ended the Blight.

I'm wondering why Leliana gets a pass but Elthina doesn't.