386 réponses à ce sujet

[maxernst]

The problem with the set-up is that while Elthina theoretically has authority over Meredith, her options for actually imposing her authority are limited. In a normal city,if she demanded Meredith resign and she resisted, she could appeal for help to the civil authority...but here, the Templars are the largest army in the city. Maybe she could appeal to the Divine, but any help she could send is going to take a while to get there. So her only real chance to replace Meredith is to plan a coup within the Templars, but even that becomes harder after Hawke kills Thrask and crew, which probably eliminates a lot of the Templars least loyal to Meredith. What she needed to do was find a man who commanded enough respect within the Templars to be able to replace Meredith without having it come to an all-out war. There is a candidate: Cullen. Cullen knows Meredith is losing it, states directly to Hawke that he's not sure if he's serving the Order anymore.  If Elthina had gone to him, he would have had no choice but to challenge Meredith--he knows the Grand Cleric's authority supersedes hers.

So yes, Elthina bears responsibility for the mess in the gallows, but I also hold Cullen himself responsible, and Hawke for not pushing her harder and earlier, and the Viscount, for renegade Templars were already a problem in Act Two. Four sane people (a scarce commodity in Kirkwall!) who knew or should have known that Meredith was not performing, and collectively failed to do anything until it was too late.

Modifié par maxernst, 10 août 2011 - 02:52 .

[Gervaise]

Okay, how much was she responsible for with regard to the tranquility thing? When I took her the papers from Alric, she acknowledged the plan and pointed out that as stated in the letter, both she and Meredith had opposed it. Okay, so Karl was in the Chantry, not in the Gallows, but that is not to say he was made Tranquil there - only that is where he ended up since he no longer had to be kept secure.
I thought it much stranger that apparently Alric's body was found since he was meant to be in secret tunnels used only by mage escapees and lyrium smugglers - neither of whom would have anything to gain by telling people about it.
Actually I do wonder about Cullen, since it would appear that many things were going on that he did know about but his commanding officer, Meredith, didn't. Factor in that for many years Thrask was doing things, apparently undetected by Meredith, but known by practically everyone else. So how much did the Grand Cleric know? You assume she knew of all the abuses but they are going on behind closed doors, in tunnels under the Gallows and even out in a camp on the Wounded Coast. I feel that the Templar Order as a whole were far more culpable than Elthinia or even Meredith. After all it is the mage/templar conspiracy that kidnap Hawke's relative. The oddest part is that even if you are working for Orsino, they keep accusing you of spying for Meredith and you are not even given the option of saying, actually it is the First Enchanter who is worried about what they are doing. Elthinia is mediating between Meredith and Orsino, when actually the two of them are almost irrelevant to what is going on and in fact each thinks the other is conspiring against them/planting evidence, when neither is involved. The Grand Cleric's big mistake is to think that the system is operating normally when it isn't. The Templars being largely in control is a situation that has been around for many years before Hawke arrives. Now individual Templars are breaking chantry law, their vows and abusing their trust but I think the cover up is happening on the Templar side and even Orsino doesn't know the full extent of what is going on.
I still think that if Anders wanted to take a bomb to anything, it should have been the Gallows, not the Chantry - easy enough given all those tunnels underneath and the problem of RoA would have immediately been solved as there would not be any Templars to enact it. After all he said that not many mages are left and he was quite willing to risk their lives anyway. Besides which you just focus the explosion on the Templar part of the building. Then, if he had to do away with the Grand Cleric, just kill her and be done with it, but really it would be unnecessary since she would be powerless without her Templar guards anyway.

[Knight of Dane]

Gervaise wrote...

 The oddest part is that even if you are working for Orsino, they keep accusing you of spying for Meredith and you are not even given the option of saying, actually it is the First Enchanter who is worried about what they are doing.

Actually, this is a glitch pre patch, after one of the lates patches they started asying "We know you're spying for Orsino" to me.

[Sepewrath]

Gespenst wrote...

^ Except that Karl had passed his Harrowing. It's a violation of chantry law to make him Tranquil - and that's another thing mages were being randomly tranquilised for six years before everything finally kicked off. Good work there.

It's not about what CulturalGeekGirl thinks Elthina should have done but about the responsibilities of her office. She is in charge of Meredith. She doesn't take responsibility - even when she's violating holy laws.

That is not a violation of any law, no one ever said the ONLY way someone could be made tranquil is because of the Harrowing. What you think if someone is considered dangerous, they will just let it slide because they passed their Harrowing?

Anyway the point was, if it is viewed that you are not doing what is expected of you and its fair game for you die because of that, its fair game for someone to be made Tranquil, whether they passed the Harrowining or not. Hell that is what that whole situation is, its them saying "You cant pass the Harrowing, your not doing what's expected of you, so your being made Tranquil" Why is that wrong, but not killing Elthina? Cant have it both ways, either both are wrong or both are OK.

[Sepewrath]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
There's absolutely nothing in my argument about expectations. It's all about responsibilities.

And again, a person's responsibiliies are subjective. First off, yes I know
she appointed Meredith, but that doesn't mean it is her decision and
her decision alone. Its highly likely her choices have to go through the
Divine before before finalized, as you said,
its a military leader, I doubt they are just leaving it up to one
person. Second, lets say she does remove Meredith, what happens then,
the situation gets instantly better? Everyone has cake and ice cream and
lives happily ever after? Or does the situation get worst with a lack
of leadership? And what happens when the Divine gets word of this, that
the situation is so bad, that KC's are getting fired, that sounds like
the stuff exalted marches are made of and I don't think that would help
anyone.

She wasn't going to wish away 900yrs of oppression with a
few kind words and change the system in a way that makes everyone
happy, so in the end, she was left with a situation that no matter how
vocal or active she would have been, it wouldn't have made the least bit
of difference, the outcome would have ended in blood. To try and blame
this situation on her is isane, she is as much responsible for the grand
outcome as I am responsible for WWII. No matter what she did. Anders
would have assassinated her anyway, because his point wasn't to get
back at her, it was to cause a war and bring the system down.

So
its not a question of whether she deserved to die or not, or who
deserved what more, she didn't. There was never anything she could have
done, this was happening, with or without her interjection. Some things
just can not be stopped, people can look for a scapegoat afterward, but
the reality is, she could have had all the meetings, fired all the
people she wanted, stroked every mages hair and told them it was going
to be OK and it would ended in disaster anyway.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

If she can appoint the Knight Commander, and the Knight Commander is crazy, why can't she appoint a new Knight Commander? Nowhere anywhere is it said that the Divine has any say about this at all, all in game sources put it solely on Elthina.

That is the thing that she could, would, should, and definitely canonically has the power to do.

If she removes Meredith and puts Cullen in her place (him being her second-in-command), yeah I think things would get a lot better really quickly. Cullen has shown himself to be reasonable, compassionate, and willing to work with the Champion. He also has the power to appoint a new First Enchanter (I'd recommend Bethany, myself) if he thinks Orsino is too involved with the blood magic underground. Also, with Meredith gone, there's nothing blocking Hawke from becoming Viscount, at which point Hawke can start trying to do something like what Alistair is doing, perhaps even making formal alliance with Ferelden as states who want more control over their respective Circles.

Sure, that might invite an exalted march, but I love how your argument is now "the Grand Cleric can't do anything or the Chantry will murder everyone, so thus blowing up the chantry is bad! Because it's an institution that is threatening to murder every single human in a city! But also a church! So you can't attack it! And the woman who is a high ranking individual in this organization that will kill every innocent person in a city is a completely innocent person of faith except for the fact that she can't do anything or the faith she's a part of will murder everyone." 

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 10 août 2011 - 09:59 .

[Sepewrath]

My argument is the same that its always been, Elthina is nothing but a scapegoat for the desperate. Yes someone in that situation who is at their breaking point, would just be grasping at straws to find something to make it all better, its only natural. But its not realistic, sure she could have put Cullen in charge, the same person who wanted to annul the mages in Ferelden because he had a bad day, sure why not. Sure Bethany a child could become the First Enchanter, why not. And Hawke could be Viscount and take over the Templar's, I'm sure no one there would have a problem with that, its probably not one of the reasons Orlais would be having problems with Ferelden. Oh and lets not forget, Anders would just accept that and everything would end in sunshine and rainbows.

Now are we going to talk about reality? First off lets stop acting like the mages were just victims, because their not. Now I always side with the mages in these spots, because I don't believe in punishing the innocent with the guilty. But there are guilty ones and we don't know what came first, the Templar squeezing or these guilty mages. So why would she remove someone from power that would have been more effective at dealing with these guilty ones, for someone who would not be as effective and has proven to be just as unstable, without some crazy lyrium sword? Then unless she totally cleaned house of the Templar's and got new ones, how would things change? The abusive Templar's will still be abusive, meaning the situation does not get better. She is to be condemned for not taking steps that would have ultimately made no difference?

Are you just being idealistic or have you really taken a step back, looked at this and actually still believe that some finger wagging would have made it better?

[nos_astra]

I'm also not sure that she is allowed to appoint just anyone. There's a templar superior somewhere in Orlais and I highly doubt that he/she is not to be consulted at some point.

And I think for a Grand Cleric trying to remain neutral, instead of blatantly siding with the templers, must be a huge step.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Cullen himself says that the situation in the Kirkwall Circle is nowhere as bad as it was in the Ferelden tower (and he's actually right about that.) He's not perfect and I don't think that he would have fixed everything, but he would have been significantly better than Meredith. What's more, he wouldn't have blocked the appointment of a new VIscount, which is something that you keep actively ignoring for some reason.

But fine, you don't want Cullen because he used to be kind of unstable? Fair enough. Write to Ferelden or Nevarra or somewhere else to get someone competent.

So yes, I think getting a completely insane person out of power in the city and preventing that crazy person from interfering with the normal political functions of the city would help. Why do you think it wouldn't?

Also, the Viscount doesn't run the Templars. The Viscount runs the city... it's their normal political leader that the city is totally supposed to have to counterbalance the Templars, but you don't pay any attention to the actual power structure, you seem to think things work according to whatever you happen to make up in your head. Beth being First Enchanter is kind of a private joke of mine, I'll admit (though she would be so perfect at it!), getting someone other than Orsino in the position was not a joke. True, we don't know which crazy came first, the chicken or the egg. Maybe Orsino was being too lax with the mages or maybe Meredith was pushing too hard. Well guess what: both of those positions can be restaffed. If the system is really broken, take out both the people in charge and put in more competent people. The KC can appoint the First Enchanter (there's an approval process, of course, but I'm pretty sure Orsino would have been willing to agree to step down as First Enchanter as part of a deal that would get rid of Meredith.)

Would Anders still be a problem? On some level, yes. But I don't believe he would have done the chantry boom if the situation in Kirkwall was actively improving for mages, a sympathetic Hawke was Viscount, and there was no pressing threat of a Right of Annulment. He would have still been pulling crap I think, but less apocalyptic crap.

Would that actually be, you know, better? I don't know. In a lot of ways, Elthina's neglectful incompetence is what allows things to get bad enough that Anders decides there is absolutely nothing else he can do, no hope of improvement or compromise, no way out but war. And maybe it's better for everyone that he made that bold move, that he started that war. Sometimes it's best to just sit back and trust in the Maker. And perhaps Elthina was the maker's tool on earth... designed to start the war he wants, a sacrifice in his grand plan. She has returned to the side of the maker now, her suffering has ended. That's what Sebastian says when Fenris asks him why the maker allows the innocent to suffer and die, anyway. Why shouldn't it apply to Elthina as well?

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 10 août 2011 - 11:57 .

[Gespenst]

Sepewrath wrote...

That is not a violation of any law, no one ever said the ONLY way someone could be made tranquil is because of the Harrowing. What you think if someone is considered dangerous, they will just let it slide because they passed their Harrowing?

Anyway the point was, if it is viewed that you are not doing what is expected of you and its fair game for you die because of that, its fair game for someone to be made Tranquil, whether they passed the Harrowining or not. Hell that is what that whole situation is, its them saying "You cant pass the Harrowing, your not doing what's expected of you, so your being made Tranquil" Why is that wrong, but not killing Elthina? Cant have it both ways, either both are wrong or both are OK.

Yes it is a violation of chantry law. They say it is several times. The tranquil have never been put throught the harrowing if they suspect that someone will fail they make them tranquil (like Jowan in the mage origin). If they fail the harrowing or become malificarum they are killed.

[rak72]

Sepewrath wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
There's absolutely nothing in my argument about expectations. It's all about responsibilities.

And again, a person's responsibiliies are subjective. First off, yes I know
she appointed Meredith, but that doesn't mean it is her decision and
her decision alone. Its highly likely her choices have to go through the
Divine before before finalized, as you said,
its a military leader, I doubt they are just leaving it up to one
person. Second, lets say she does remove Meredith, what happens then,
the situation gets instantly better? Everyone has cake and ice cream and
lives happily ever after? Or does the situation get worst with a lack
of leadership? And what happens when the Divine gets word of this, that
the situation is so bad, that KC's are getting fired, that sounds like
the stuff exalted marches are made of and I don't think that would help
anyone.

She wasn't going to wish away 900yrs of oppression with a
few kind words and change the system in a way that makes everyone
happy, so in the end, she was left with a situation that no matter how
vocal or active she would have been, it wouldn't have made the least bit
of difference, the outcome would have ended in blood. To try and blame
this situation on her is isane, she is as much responsible for the grand
outcome as I am responsible for WWII. No matter what she did. Anders
would have assassinated her anyway, because his point wasn't to get
back at her, it was to cause a war and bring the system down.

So
its not a question of whether she deserved to die or not, or who
deserved what more, she didn't. There was never anything she could have
done, this was happening, with or without her interjection. Some things
just can not be stopped, people can look for a scapegoat afterward, but
the reality is, she could have had all the meetings, fired all the
people she wanted, stroked every mages hair and told them it was going
to be OK and it would ended in disaster anyway.

What Sepewrath said

[rak72]

Yes, Anders would have done the Chantry boom if things were getting better in Kirkwall - that was exactly what he was afraid of. He didn't want a peaceful compromise, he wanted to topple things over completely. He said as much when Os & Merideth were going to talk to the GC before the boom. Even if you think she sucks at her job, that in no way justifies her & countless innocent bystander's murder. She was always trying to do what she felt was right and was trying to keep the peace the best she could with what she had to work with.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

rak72 wrote...

Sepewrath wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
There's absolutely nothing in my argument about expectations. It's all about responsibilities.

And again, a person's responsibiliies are subjective. First off, yes I know
she appointed Meredith, but that doesn't mean it is her decision and
her decision alone. Its highly likely her choices have to go through the
Divine before before finalized, as you said,
its a military leader, I doubt they are just leaving it up to one
person. Second, lets say she does remove Meredith, what happens then,
the situation gets instantly better? Everyone has cake and ice cream and
lives happily ever after? Or does the situation get worst with a lack
of leadership? And what happens when the Divine gets word of this, that
the situation is so bad, that KC's are getting fired, that sounds like
the stuff exalted marches are made of and I don't think that would help
anyone.

She wasn't going to wish away 900yrs of oppression with a
few kind words and change the system in a way that makes everyone
happy, so in the end, she was left with a situation that no matter how
vocal or active she would have been, it wouldn't have made the least bit
of difference, the outcome would have ended in blood. To try and blame
this situation on her is isane, she is as much responsible for the grand
outcome as I am responsible for WWII. No matter what she did. Anders
would have assassinated her anyway, because his point wasn't to get
back at her, it was to cause a war and bring the system down.

So
its not a question of whether she deserved to die or not, or who
deserved what more, she didn't. There was never anything she could have
done, this was happening, with or without her interjection. Some things
just can not be stopped, people can look for a scapegoat afterward, but
the reality is, she could have had all the meetings, fired all the
people she wanted, stroked every mages hair and told them it was going
to be OK and it would ended in disaster anyway.

What Sepewrath said

See my response above.

Beyond that, some questions:

On what do the people who believe her choices have to go through the Divine base this belief? I haven't been able to find anything that implies or supports it anywhere, everything seems to say that the Knight Commander is directly under the supervision of the Grand Cleric.

The Grand Cleric also appears to have significant personal authority, since she could choose to not leave Kirkwall even when the Divine asked her to.

And do you guys genuinely believe that replacing Meredith would not have helped the situation at all?

We'll never know whether the Chantry explosion would have happened no matter what, because Elthina failed to do anything to stop Meredith from making things continuosly worse not just for mages, but for most of the citizens of Kirkwall. Her job was to pick a sane Knight Commander who could keep Kirkwall safe, and she failed at it.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 11 août 2011 - 01:06 .

[rak72]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote

... And perhaps Elthina was the maker's tool on earth... designed to start the war he wants, a sacrifice in his grand plan. She has returned to the side of the maker now, her suffering has ended. That's what Sebastian says when Fenris asks him why the maker allows the innocent to suffer and die, anyway. Why shouldn't it apply to Elthina as well?

Could very well be, that doesn't mean Anders is some kind of Angel.  He still carried the plot out with his own free will and he is still a homicidal terrorist that deserves the harshest punishment possible.  It turns my stomach how people can so casualy justify someones murder.

[Giggles_Manically]

It does not matter how many people you toss into ye old wood chipper, as long as one day it spits out that mage freedom you keep looking for.

Shame that it probably wont do it.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I'm not justifying a murder.

I am willing to consider the validity of a political assassination in some contexts. Any time any human being kills another it is a bad thing, whether it be a soldier in a war, an executioner carrying out an execution, or a rebel killing a political leader he feels is responsible for the suffering of his people.

I just don't think what Anders did was any worse than any soldier killing enemies in a war is. If someone tried to put all my people in camps, or in prison, or on reservation, I would try to fight so the faction that was doing that to my people wasn't in power anymore. It may be hopeless, but I'd still try to fight if there didn't seem to be a better way to free my people.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 11 août 2011 - 01:28 .

[rak72]

So any loony toon can take it upon themselves to declare a war on whatever the cause d'jour is, and start wacking whomever they perceive is responsible. Yea, that's something to consider. All the great terrorist of our time also thought they were doing exactly that.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

No, but if you're part of a faction that establishes an international system of apartheid and another international system of internment, I think you've got to be prepared to be at war with the groups you are subjecting to apartheid and internment.

[Giggles_Manically]

A man who justifies one atrocity justifies every atrocity.

I cant place the quote but I do find it telling.
Anders commits the first one.
The Chantry commits one back.
Then the mages commit one again.

Down it goes till more and more people are pulled in leading to worse and worse atrocities.

[SurelyForth]

rak72 wrote...

So any loony toon can take it upon themselves to declare a war on whatever the cause d'jour is, and start wacking whomever they perceive is responsible. Yea, that's something to consider. All the great terrorist of our time also thought they were doing exactly that.

Well, if mage opression was merely a cause du jour, you might have a valid comment. As it's been growing steadily worse and more corrupt over nearly a millenia, then I'd say your pithiness is fairly off the mark. It's like saying abolishonists, or sufragettes or civil rights activist were acting on petty whims instead of acting out against a government/system that put their rights as humans beneath the rights of other humans. 

And Anders wasn't blindly lashing out, nor acting impulsively. He waited until he knew there was an annulment being sought AND an Exalted March being considered. 

Speaking of Exalted Marches, is the Divine a loony for threatening to march on Orzammar for allowing an unsanctioned Circle of Magi despite the fact that Orzammar is not underneath the Chantry? Is she a loony for being willing to wipe Kirkwall off the map even more thoroughly than Anders ever could in order to quell a justified mage uprising instigated by her templar and allowed to run unchecked by her Grand Cleric? 

Is Sebastian a loony for wanting to bring an army against Kirkwall to get revenge on two people?

@Giggles: What atrocity did the mages commit besides refusing to wait for their fates to be decided for them? Unless the templars were surrendering and asking for mercy, then it's really no different from any rebellion. People die. It sucks. Sometimes the rebellions aren't justified, but in the case of the mages...I, personally, believe it is. 

Modifié par SurelyForth, 11 août 2011 - 01:48 .

[syllogi]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I'm not justifying a murder.

I am willing to consider the validity of a political assassination in some contexts. Any time any human being kills another it is a bad thing, whether it be a soldier in a war, an executioner carrying out an execution, or a rebel killing a political leader he feels is responsible for the suffering of his people.

I just don't think what Anders did was any worse than any soldier killing enemies in a war is. If someone tried to put all my people in camps, or in prison, or on reservation, I would try to fight so the faction that was doing that to my people wasn't in power anymore. It may be hopeless, but I'd still try to fight if there didn't seem to be a better way to free my people.

Soldiers don't kill innocent bystanders in neutral zones.  Wars have rules, and that would be considered an atrocity.

I'm all for helping mages live a normal life, but there is no defense of what Anders did.  It's like comparing some guy who shoots up a mall but had a manifesto detailing how he was railing against capitalism to soldiers at war.  Frankly, that's insulting to soldiers.

[rak72]

SurelyForth wrote...

rak72 wrote...

So any loony toon can take it upon themselves to declare a war on whatever the cause d'jour is, and start wacking whomever they perceive is responsible. Yea, that's something to consider. All the great terrorist of our time also thought they were doing exactly that.

Well, if mage opression was merely a cause du jour, you might have a valid comment. As it's been growing steadily worse and more corrupt over nearly a millenia, then I'd say your pithiness is fairly off the mark. It's like saying abolishonists, or sufragettes or civil rights activist were acting on petty whims instead of acting out against a government/system that put their rights as humans beneath the rights of other humans. 

And Anders wasn't blindly lashing out, nor acting impulsively. He waited until he knew there was an annulment being sought AND an Exalted March being considered. 

Speaking of Exalted Marches, is the Divine a loony for threatening to march on Orzammar for allowing an unsanctioned Circle of Magi despite the fact that Orzammar is not underneath the Chantry? Is she a loony for being willing to wipe Kirkwall off the map even more thoroughly than Anders ever could in order to quell a justified mage uprising instigated by her templar and allowed to run unchecked by her Grand Cleric? 

Is Sebastian a loony for wanting to bring an army against Kirkwall to get revenge on two people?

@Giggles: What atrocity did the mages commit besides refusing to wait for their fates to be decided for them? Unless the templars were surrendering and asking for mercy, then it's really no different from any rebellion. People die. It sucks. Sometimes the rebellions aren't justified, but in the case of the mages...I, personally, believe it is. 

Well if your going to bring civil rights  into this, I think the great Martin Luther King handled it quite well.

There was no annulment being sought out  - his actions caused the annulment.  He was afraid Hawk would go to the chantry and convince elthina to work out a peaceful compromise.  The fact that it is so thought out, planned and premeditated makes it worse.


Is the divine loony for her thretened exhalted marches?  yes.  Is Elthina loony for trying to stop it by keeping a fragile peace & should be murdered for it?  no.

Is Sebastian loony for lashing out in anger when the last of his family was murdered before his eyes - no

[leggywillow]

TeenZombie wrote...
I'm all for helping mages live a normal
life, but there is no defense of what Anders did.  It's like comparing
some guy who shoots up a mall but had a manifesto detailing how he was
railing against capitalism to soldiers at war.  Frankly, that's
insulting to soldiers.

I am one of the Anders fans who agrees that there is no defending what he did.  It was shocking and atrocious and probably isn't going to be much help to the mages.  However, I also don't think we should defend or excuse the system that brought it about, which is more what I think this topic was originally addressing.

[leggywillow]

rak72 wrote...
There was no annulment being sought out  - his actions caused the annulment.  He was afraid Hawk would go to the chantry and convince elthina to work out a peaceful compromise.  The fact that it is so thought out, planned and premeditated makes it worse.

Actually, no.  There was an annulment being sought out.  If you talk to Karras standing in the Gallows about midway through Act 3, he mentions that Meredith has sent for it.  This is well before Anders has done anything (that the templars know of, anyway).

[rak72]

Merideth wanted it, Elthina never ok'ed it, and Hawk was on the way to the chantry (in my case) to convince her not to allow it. Then the unibomber steps in with his, "no there can be no compromise", and the rest is history.