386 ответов в этой теме

[ipgd]

rak72 wrote...
Well if your going to bring civil rights  into this, I think the great Martin Luther King handled it quite well.

And MLK's work was built on decades of war and violence that created the social climate to allow a man to make a peaceful stand for free rights. Who knows if MLK would have been able to achieve what he did if not for the Civil War and people like John Brown who took violent action in the name of abolition and civil equality?

There was no annulment being sought out  - his actions caused the annulment.  He was afraid Hawk would go to the chantry and convince elthina to work out a peaceful compromise.  The fact that it is so thought out, planned and premeditated makes it worse.

Meredith was looking for an excuse to annul the Circle since, at the very least, the beginning of Act III. There is a templar in the Gallows that will make a comment saying that Meredith sent a request for authorization to the Divine -- over Elthina's head -- and given the fact the Divine explicitly expresses interest in an Exalted March on Kirkwall, it was highly likely she would have gotten that authorization.

By killing Elthina and by-proxy authorizing the Right through Meredith -- and he probably believed that the Right would inevitably be authorized anyway, eventually -- Anders was ensuring that the Right would be executed in a manner that would reflect most poorly upon Meredith. If she had gotten direct permission from the Divine, the political situation would look very different; by handing Meredith the authority herself, he set it up so that her own actions would expose her mental instability and incompetence.

Сообщение изменено: ipgd, 11 Август 2011 - 02:07 .

[SurelyForth]

rak72 wrote...

Well if your going to bring civil rights  into this, I think the great Martin Luther King handled it quite well.

There was no annulment being sought out  - his actions caused the annulment.  He was afraid Hawk would go to the chantry and convince elthina to work out a peaceful compromise.  The fact that it is so thought out, planned and premeditated makes it worse.


Is the divine loony for her thretened exhalted marches?  yes.  Is Elthina loony for trying to stop it by keeping a fragile peace & should be murdered for it?  no.

MLK handled it well because you can do things in a modern civilization that you could not do in a medieval analogue. Anders wasn't even supposed to exist outside of the Circle, and most non-mages are either taught to fear mages or fear association with mages since it leads to Bad Things. If you're existence is illegal, how can you form peaceful protests and gatherings?

You need to revisit the Gallows at the beginning of Act 3. One of the templars says that Meredith is sending for an annulment (Elthina, I believe, had denied it and Meredith was going over her head).

Elthina wasn't doing anything to maintain the balance in Kirkwall. That is literally the problem most people have with her. She did nothing but placate when action against Meredith was needed to alleviate a worsening situation. If there's a hole in a dam that's threatening to become a great gaping, gushing split, you don't go to your room and wait it out...you patch the thing!

Сообщение изменено: SurelyForth, 11 Август 2011 - 02:08 .

[leggywillow]

rak72 wrote...

Merideth wanted it, Elthina never ok'ed it, and Hawk was on the way to the chantry (in my case) to convince her not to allow it. Then the unibomber steps in with his, "no there can be no compromise", and the rest is history.

Elthina didn't need to okay it; Meredith was going straight to the Divine.  Sure, the Divine may have turned down her proposal, but since we already know she was considering an Exalted March on Kirkwall... well, the annulment would have caused a lot less bloodshed than that, so I see no reason why she'd turn it down.  Elthina was effectively out of the equation at this point.  She made herself powerless by her refusal to do anything.

Сообщение изменено: leggywillow, 11 Август 2011 - 02:11 .

[rak72]

SurelyForth wrote...

rak72 wrote...

Well if your going to bring civil rights  into this, I think the great Martin Luther King handled it quite well.

There was no annulment being sought out  - his actions caused the annulment.  He was afraid Hawk would go to the chantry and convince elthina to work out a peaceful compromise.  The fact that it is so thought out, planned and premeditated makes it worse.


Is the divine loony for her thretened exhalted marches?  yes.  Is Elthina loony for trying to stop it by keeping a fragile peace & should be murdered for it?  no.

MLK handled it well because you can do things in a modern civilization that you could not do in a medieval analogue. Anders wasn't even supposed to exist outside of the Circle, and most non-mages are either taught to fear mages or fear association with mages since it leads to Bad Things. If you're existence is illegal, how can you form peaceful protests and gatherings?

You need to revisit the Gallows at the beginning of Act 3. One of the templars says that Meredith is sending for an annulment (Elthina, I believe, had denied it and Meredith was going over her head).

Elthina wasn't doing anything to maintain the balance in Kirkwall. That is literally the problem most people have with her. She did nothing but placate when action against Meredith was needed to alleviate a worsening situation. If there's a hole in a dam that's threatening to become a great gaping, gushing split, you don't go to your room and wait it out...you patch the thing!

Then you shouldn't have brough modern situations into the argument.   

The peace was fragile, but it was holdig on.  I truly believe Anders view on the circles attrocities is skewed.  And I trulu believe that if Hawk was able to talk to Elthina, change for the positve would have been made.
Anders didn't want any of that and his actions ensured the right of annulment and divine march.

But whatever, I still find it repugnant to justify murder because someone is an old biddy that sucks at her job.

[rak72]

leggywillow wrote...

rak72 wrote...

Merideth wanted it, Elthina never ok'ed it, and Hawk was on the way to the chantry (in my case) to convince her not to allow it. Then the unibomber steps in with his, "no there can be no compromise", and the rest is history.

Elthina didn't need to okay it; Meredith was going straight to the Divine.  Sure, the Divine may have turned down her proposal, but since we already know she was considering an Exalted March on Kirkwall... well, the annulment would have caused a lot less bloodshed than that, so I see no reason why she'd turn it down.  Elthina was effectively out of the equation at this point.  She made herself powerless by her refusal to do anything.

So fire ball Merideth

[Masako52]

rak72 wrote...


Then you shouldn't have brough modern situations into the argument.   

The peace was fragile, but it was holdig on.  I truly believe Anders view on the circles attrocities is skewed.  And I trulu believe that if Hawk was able to talk to Elthina, change for the positve would have been made.
Anders didn't want any of that and his actions ensured the right of annulment and divine march.

But whatever, I still find it repugnant to justify murder because someone is an old biddy that sucks at her job.

I don't believe that killing another human being is ever right, unless in complete self defense (and even then, death is a sad thing). That being said, Elthina had it coming precisely because she "sucks at her job." Her sucking at her job and not doing anything at all caused the deaths of countless people. She alone had the power to stop the conflict, if it was at all possible. And she didn't even try. She was in a position to maintain peace, and she let everyone down. No matter what she believes, no matter how nice of a person she might be, her choices did not reflect the value of human life and Kirkwall's well-being.

So on one hand, no, Elthina didn't deserve to die. But on the other hand, yeah, she kinda did.

And yeah, I do believe that Elthina had the power to minimize the conflict. Tension would probably always exist between both groups, but I absolutely think that Elthina could have prevented war. But I also do think that Anders was so obsessed at that point, with Justice/Vengeance skewing his thoughts, that he probably would have done something radical even if the conflict did wear down - he would've gotten mad because a Templar gave him a dirty look or something, haha. Or maybe he wouldn't have, I don't know. It's really hard to tell. Because as obsessed as Anders was, in that situation he had good reason to be upset. Guess we'll never know.

Сообщение изменено: Masako52, 11 Август 2011 - 02:35 .

[leggywillow]

rak72 wrote...

leggywillow wrote...
Elthina didn't need to okay it; Meredith was going straight to the Divine.  Sure, the Divine may have turned down her proposal, but since we already know she was considering an Exalted March on Kirkwall... well, the annulment would have caused a lot less bloodshed than that, so I see no reason why she'd turn it down.  Elthina was effectively out of the equation at this point.  She made herself powerless by her refusal to do anything.

So fire ball Merideth

Hawke does, and gladly.  I'm not saying Elthina deserved to die and that the Chantry deserved to be blown up.  I can't really defend Anders' actions; they were horrible.  But I'll be damned if I would ever defend Elthina either, the "indifference of good men" and all that jazz.  "Washing one's hands of the conflict between the powerful and the powerless means to side with the powerful, not to be neutral."

Elthina didn't deserve death for just sucking at her job, but it was pretty damn irresponsible of her.  She should have stepped down if she wasn't going to do anything, and in the end a lot of people got hurt.  I do blame her and people like her for people like Anders.

Сообщение изменено: leggywillow, 11 Август 2011 - 02:37 .

[ipgd]

rak72 wrote...

leggywillow wrote...

rak72 wrote...

Merideth wanted it, Elthina never ok'ed it, and Hawk was on the way to the chantry (in my case) to convince her not to allow it. Then the unibomber steps in with his, "no there can be no compromise", and the rest is history.

Elthina didn't need to okay it; Meredith was going straight to the Divine.  Sure, the Divine may have turned down her proposal, but since we already know she was considering an Exalted March on Kirkwall... well, the annulment would have caused a lot less bloodshed than that, so I see no reason why she'd turn it down.  Elthina was effectively out of the equation at this point.  She made herself powerless by her refusal to do anything.

So fire ball Merideth

Fireballing Meredith wouldn't have achieved the same thing. It may have solved the local Kirkwall problem, but Anders was not trying to solve the local Kirkwall problem. He was making an attack on two fronts: the immediate tactical one, where he aimed to remove Elthina (and all of her immediate successors) from power in order to move the power to authorize the Right of Annulment down to Meredith, and to do so in a provocative enough fashion that he could ensure Meredith would immediately react by invoking the Right of Annulment under dubious legal, moral and unjustifiable grounds -- which worked, unquestionably. In effect, he was ensuring that Meredith would invoke the Right in the worst possible scenario for her politically (which detractors would likely extrapolate into a criticism of the entire Templar Order).

The second was to make a symbolic attack upon a) the millenia old cultural institution that the Chantry represents, The Compromise that Elthina represents, in every degree from her station to her personality. The attack was meant to underscore the idea that there cannot be compromise in matters of human liberty. The attack was also meant to galvanize the public, to affront each individual personally through an assault upon their religion. The attack was also meant to force the mages (both in Kirkwall, and elsewhere) into a position where they could not capitulate, where they would have to either fight for their freedom or be killed, and where all mages would by necessity need to unify because everyone else would be against them for their very nature. Conservatives and Chantry loyalists would be removed from the picture.

He was also attempting to establish himself as a martyr figure (which Hawke may or may not screw up for him). By drawing attention to himself in the fashion he did, he was building himself as a symbol to be exploited by the people who would rise up as leaders of the emergent revolution -- by writing a manifesto he would have established a set of ground unifying principles for a movement, and by martyring himself he would be immediately casting a spotlight on his work.

If all Anders were trying to do was fix Kirkwall, there would have been much easier ways to do so. But that wasn't all he was trying to do. And killing Meredith alone would not have accomplished any of his primary goals.

Сообщение изменено: ipgd, 11 Август 2011 - 02:48 .

[Sealy]

Edit, oh my! More pages of posts, why did I think I had read all responses, ah well to far over now to be offended on someonelses behalf


As for whether Elthina deserves to die, I say no. She was a doddering old biddy who my warden and my Hawke both wanted to hit several times. What she needed though were more canon convo's, the ability for our Hawkes to tell her exactly what was going on so that we could stop getting ambiguous religon replys and actually force her to answer charges. She would have deserved to die if she honestly though she was wrong but to me she seemed sincere in hoping that everyone would take a breath and calm the eff down. She didn't seserve to die the same way Emile didn't,  naivete and stupidity is not a crime punishable by death. I sincerely doubt anything was being run by her since she wasn't even aware what was going on under her own nose, much less across the channel in the gallows.

Сообщение изменено: Fleshdress, 11 Август 2011 - 02:56 .

[Sinaxi]

rak72 wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

rak72 wrote...
So any loony toon can take it upon themselves to declare a war on whatever the cause d'jour is, and start wacking whomever they perceive is responsible. Yea, that's something to consider. All the great terrorist of our time also thought they were doing exactly that.

Well, if mage opression was merely a cause du jour, you might have a valid comment. As it's been growing steadily worse and more corrupt over nearly a millenia, then I'd say your pithiness is fairly off the mark. It's like saying abolishonists, or sufragettes or civil rights activist were acting on petty whims instead of acting out against a government/system that put their rights as humans beneath the rights of other humans. 

And Anders wasn't blindly lashing out, nor acting impulsively. He waited until he knew there was an annulment being sought AND an Exalted March being considered. 

Speaking of Exalted Marches, is the Divine a loony for threatening to march on Orzammar for allowing an unsanctioned Circle of Magi despite the fact that Orzammar is not underneath the Chantry? Is she a loony for being willing to wipe Kirkwall off the map even more thoroughly than Anders ever could in order to quell a justified mage uprising instigated by her templar and allowed to run unchecked by her Grand Cleric? 

Is Sebastian a loony for wanting to bring an army against Kirkwall to get revenge on two people?

@Giggles: What atrocity did the mages commit besides refusing to wait for their fates to be decided for them? Unless the templars were surrendering and asking for mercy, then it's really no different from any rebellion. People die. It sucks. Sometimes the rebellions aren't justified, but in the case of the mages...I, personally, believe it is.

Well if your going to bring civil rights  into this, I think the great Martin Luther King handled it quite well.

There was no annulment being sought out  - his actions caused the annulment.  He was afraid Hawk would go to the chantry and convince elthina to work out a peaceful compromise.  The fact that it is so thought out, planned and premeditated makes it worse.

Is the divine loony for her thretened exhalted marches?  yes.  Is Elthina loony for trying to stop it by keeping a fragile peace & should be murdered for it?  no.

Is Sebastian loony for lashing out in anger when the last of his family was murdered before his eyes - no

Meredith specifically sent to the Divine for an annulment, and if you click on Karras in the Gallows all he can talk about is how "These robes are gonna get what's coming to them!" Of course it is thought out, premeditated and planned - how else do you expect someone to build a freaking bomb?! It has been something he has been fighting against for the better part of 6 YEARS, all the while the city kept tearing itself apart from the inside out. Anders was not going to sit by and watch. He says as much himself.

Anders didn't want a peaceful "compromise" because there is no such thing as a peaceful compromise in the case of Mages vs. the Chantry, and especially not in the case of Kirkwall. Mages have been under Chantry rule for a long time. They have hardly any rights as human beings, and considering that people all over the world take that very seriously - I also take it very seriously in the case of Thedas. His bombing of the Chantry was both tactical and symbolic and it ensured that Mages would be forced to act. As far as Anders is concerned, this is about so much more than Kirkwall. This is about every single life of every single Mage, and the fact that he believes the Circle is an unjust institution that should not be allowed to continue. If he dies for what he does, he is perfectly fine with that because changing the world is more important to him than living as a slave. In a world where death is a constant thing for each PC, each companion, and several political structures (such as Antiva) it really surprises me that people expect innocents are not going to die in a revolution. Does that make it any better? No. Not at all.

Quoted from Sepewrath's post on one of these pages:
"She is to be condemned for not taking steps that would have ultimately made no difference?" 

So your solution is to do NOTHING? Because apparently in your eyes absolutely nothing would have worked,
so why bother at all? That's what Elthina thought too, I guess..:lol:That really does not make any sense to me...but all right...

I am in no way justifying the murder of innocent people, but Elthina was not as innocent as many people seem to think she was. Not in my eyes she wasn't. Her blatant ignorance led to Meredith assuming martial control of an entire city, while she sat around saying she would pray to the Maker to fix everything. She did nothing to stop the escalating tensions between Meredith and Orsino, and did nothing for SEVEN years about the Mage abuse going on in the Circle. I don't understand why people fight so hard in Elthina's name when the hierarchy of the Chantry/Templar Order is quite clear. She was in charge of Meredith, and if she couldn't control her or didn't like her antics then she would have done something about it - such as...oh I don't know? Replace her? Tell the Divine? The fact that she didn't says volumes about her character or perhaps just her idiocy.

The peace was fragile, but it was holdig on.  I truly believe Anders view on the circles attrocities is skewed.  And I trulu believe that if Hawk was able to talk to Elthina, change for the positve would have been
made. Anders didn't want any of that and his actions ensured the right of annulment and divine march.

You are literally asinine if you honestly believe that this so called "fragile peace" was holding on. If Anders or Hawke did nothing...absolutely nothing at all, Meredith and Orsino still would have ended up in the exact same place they were that very night in some way shape or form. Meredith was holding onto hardly any sanity at that point. If the Divine gave her the go ahead to declare a RoA it would not have had the same impact as her taking it upon herself to declare one & it still would have just led to Mages dying for no reason. Or, the Divine might have led an Exalted March there if she was feeling particulary march happy. Instead, Anders took this as his opportunity to show the world that the Templars and the Chantry could be defied and should be defied.

Hawke did talk to Elthina. Hawke asked her why she wouldn't choose a side, and she gave the same BS line she always gives "Um! I can't choose sides! I feel for the Mages, I do! (but I'm still not going to do anything about it) I need to pray to the Maker!"

So, wait...have you lived in the Circle? Oh? No? Oh, okay. Let me know how the Circle's atrocities are "skewed" then once you do, otherwise don't mention it unless you have evidence that can directly refute the things Anders has said about his personal time there or what is going on in Kirkwall.

Once again, I am in no way saying that she deserved to die because of this...but it has nothing to do with us trying to "justify Elthina's murder". She was a political target, despite the fact that people think she wasn't. The Chantry itself was a symbol. That symbol was destroyed. People that dislike Elthina dislike her because she was a prominent figure in this struggle, and she pretended to be on both sides to "keep the peace" all the while not actually helping anyone and by doing this she just inevitably led Kirkwall into greater ruin because she refused to take ANY sort of action at all. I guess I could call her lazy, or maybe she just didn't really care and so she let Meredith do whatever she wanted. Since it really seems like she didn't mind Meredith's methods if she didn't work harder to stop them.

This is not a cut and dry black and white situation. Not at all.

Сообщение изменено: Tidra, 11 Август 2011 - 03:19 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

My argument is simple: no human ever killing another human being is ok. However, apartheid and internment are just as bad as killing. If you work for an organization that does evil things, then you gotta expect someone who is mad at you will attack you. It's the contractors on the death star question again: was it wrong for them to blow up the Death Star in Return of the Jedi because there might have been civilian construction workers stationed there, just working for a paycheck? Maybe it is. If you believe any attack that has collatoral damage is wrong, then the rebels were wrong to blow up the death star. I think that anyone who is willing to work on the death star probably has to know they're working for an evil empire, so it's a bit more understandable.

It's like killing someone who is a major political figure in [EVIL EMPIRE OF YOUR CHOICE]. To make a comparison, say I could kill Danarius, but there was a chance I'd kill some other slave-owning Tevinter citizens who were complicit in the slave trade. Would I blow up Danarius? Sure.

There's one point where Fenris has a slaver captured on the sand, begging for mercy. Fenris kills him. I think that's about as bad as killing Elthina. He was just a guy who decided to work for the wrong organization, one that happened to do things that Fenris thinks are evil. That's what Elthina is too... someone who works for a military power that forced the elves into ghettos and imprisoned the mages. You work for the evil empire, when the rebels blow up the death star, you go with it.

Сообщение изменено: CulturalGeekGirl, 11 Август 2011 - 04:24 .

[Ryzaki]

You can't stop Fenris from killing that slaver. >_>

Сообщение изменено: Ryzaki, 11 Август 2011 - 04:18 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Sorry, Ryzaki. I was in the middle of fixing that when I saw your post. You can't stop Anders from blowing up the chantry either.

[Ryzaki]

Nope you can't wasn't suggesting you could.

[Sealy]

 A differing view point isn't enough reason you to start calling names and commenting on peoples intelligence. It doesn't get you point across or make you seem more right, it just makes it look like you're frothing.


Inaction of a religious leader does not condone bombing a church. I am pissed that gay people don't have rights for nothing more then the way they were born. But bombing a christian church or WBC wouldn't be just or right. Elthina didn't want to be caught up in the politics and did a very good job of staying out of it. It's true she probably could have helped the mages, she probably could have replaced Meredith with the right amount of cow towing to the devine except she probably didn't think mages should be free, nor did she think the circle should be anulled. She was apparently talking to Orsino and trying to mediate to no avail and at the moment of bombing Orsino was once again trying to go to her to get Meredith to back off, which Meredith didn't want so that probably means Elthina had stepped in on behalf of the mages in the past.

You can paint it up as pretty as you want but putting a bomb in a soft target to get a point across to a target you can't touch is wrong. Calling bombing the church symbolic doesn't justify it, and all it sybolized was that mages were as crazy and dangerous as the entire world believed. What Anders wanted was to make sure the circles were torn down, a stupid thing to do given the number a crazy freaking "free" mages we run into over the course of the game. The circles are needed, they also need to be changed.

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

It's like killing someone who is a major political figure in [EVIL EMPIRE OF YOUR CHOICE]. To make a comparison, say I could kill Danarius, but there was a chance I'd kill some other slave-owning Tevinter citizens who were complicit in the slave trade. Would I blow up Danarius? Sure.

This would only count if Meredith was in the church, Elthina was merely part of the orginization. A part with pull but she won't help free people she doesn't believe should be free. Outside of peoples head canon there is no proof she knows anything other then what she says she knows.

I had more but I was interrupted by the bf and I have lost my thoughts on the subject and ze passion.  Boys. 

[esper]

Elthina was the leader of Meridith and shoulder never have allowed Meridith to be acting Viocount, she failed her job the moment she did that. Meridith answered to Elthina.
I tend to believe that Elthina had become too comfortable in her position of power and just didn't want to do anything that could rock it.

[leggywillow]

Fleshdress wrote...
Inaction of a religious leader does not condone bombing a church. I am pissed that gay people don't have rights for nothing more then the way they were born. But bombing a christian church or WBC wouldn't be just or right. Elthina didn't want to be caught up in the politics and did a very good job of staying out of it.

But there's a big problem with this: Elthina's position is a political one as much as it is religious.

I think a lot of the Elthina sympathy (besides her being a kindly old grandma type) is people making too many comparisons to how most modern-day Western religions operate.  They are not political institutions, and their main role in society is to provide comfort.  Elthina would be a model preacher in say, a Methodist church.  But last I checked, most modern-day Christian churches don't have freakin' soldiers under their direct command.

The Chantry comes closer to being like the Catholic Church in the time of Crusades.  It is political, and it holds a great deal of military strength.  The Divine and the templars hold a great deal of political and military power.  Meredith is Elthina's direct subordinate.  The templars are under HER jurisdiction.  In this case, Elthina "staying out of it" is her making a mockery of her own position.  She makes herself powerless and Kirkwall suffers for it.

I really, really don't understand how you can say that Elthina not wanting to be caught up in politics and avoiding them is a point in her favor.  IT IS HER JOB.  She is not a modern-day Baptist preacher with no political sway.  By Act 3, the templars and Meredith hold all the power in Kirkwall without the viscount.  And Elthina is Meredith's boss, or should be if Elthina would DO SOMETHING.

EDIT:  You are mistaken in saying that Elthina is just "part of the organization" and that Meredith actually holds more power than Elthina.  True, by Act 3, I think it would be very difficult for Elthina to oppose Meredith, but if she hadn't been so ineffectual the entire time, it shouldn't have come to that.

Elthina's inaction eroded the power of her position, and the blame for that lies entirely with Elthina herself.

EDIT AGAIN:  It seems apparent to me that Elthina is carrying the Idiot Ball that brings about most of the plot.  If she'd put the Idiot Ball down for two minutes, Acts 2 and 3 would have played out very, very differently.  It really blows my mind that people defend this woman.

Сообщение изменено: leggywillow, 11 Август 2011 - 06:18 .

[Sealy]

leggywillow wrote...

Fleshdress wrote...
Inaction of a religious leader does not condone bombing a church. I am pissed that gay people don't have rights for nothing more then the way they were born. But bombing a christian church or WBC wouldn't be just or right. Elthina didn't want to be caught up in the politics and did a very good job of staying out of it.

But there's a big problem with this: Elthina's position is a political one as much as it is religious.

I think a lot of the Elthina sympathy (besides her being a kindly old grandma type) is people making too many comparisons to how most modern-day Western religions operate.  They are not political institutions, and their main role in society is to provide comfort.  Elthina would be a model preacher in say, a Methodist church.  But last I checked, most modern-day Christian churches don't have freakin' soldiers under their direct command.

The Chantry comes closer to being like the Catholic Church in the time of Crusades.  It is political, and it holds a great deal of military strength.  The Divine and the templars hold a great deal of political and military power.  Meredith is Elthina's direct subordinate.  The templars are under HER jurisdiction.  In this case, Elthina "staying out of it" is her making a mockery of her own position.  She makes herself powerless and Kirkwall suffers for it.

I really, really don't understand how you can say that Elthina not wanting to be caught up in politics and avoiding them is a point in her favor.  IT IS HER JOB.  She is not a modern-day Baptist preacher with no political sway.  By Act 3, the templars and Meredith hold all the power in Kirkwall without the viscount.  And Elthina is Meredith's boss, or should be if Elthina would DO SOMETHING.

EDIT:  You are mistaken in saying that Elthina is just "part of the organization" and that Meredith actually holds more power than Elthina.  True, by Act 3, I think it would be very difficult for Elthina to oppose Meredith, but if she hadn't been so ineffectual the entire time, it shouldn't have come to that.

Elthina's inaction eroded the power of her position, and the blame for that lies entirely with Elthina herself.

I didn't say or imply that it was a point in her favour, I merely stated she did a handy job of not involving herself or being an active person. In fact just a couple posts up I said she was ineffectual. I just don't think the fact she did nothing a good reason to kill her.

You are mistaken if you think religion doesn't play a part in todays oppression. Yah the church today doesn't have soldiers in the form of armour wearing chaps but it definatly has it's followers that go around raping/beating/murdering in it's name and exploding a church isn't going to make them stop or see the light. It won't make the opressed people rise up either it just makes people kill eachother more, with more reason to justify themselves.

Why would she oppose Meridith? Running under the impression she is just as misinformed as she appears? You hand her papers about the rite and she talks about how they were turned down and then moves on to the murder that happened. I assume that like others she is kept in the dark about the state of the Gallows. Of course with no info to make either path legit all I have is my opinion.

[leggywillow]

Fleshdress wrote...
I didn't say or imply that it was a point in her favour, I merely stated she did a handy job of not involving herself or being an active person. In fact just a couple posts up I said she was ineffectual. I just don't think the fact she did nothing a good reason to kill her.

No, it's not a reason to kill her.  She didn't deserve to die.  Nor does she deserve to be defended for her actions, though, since it would be sort of like saying "Well, President Obama did a really good job not getting involved when one of his generals did such-and-such."  Keeping Meredith in line is one of her responsibilities, even if it's one she doesn't like.

You are mistaken if you think religion doesn't play a part in todays oppression. Yah the church today doesn't have soldiers in the form of armour wearing chaps but it definatly has it's followers that go around raping/beating/murdering in it's name and exploding a church isn't going to make them stop or see the light.

Of course it does, but not in the same way.  You really can't compare modern-day religious zealots with Dragon Age's templars or even the old real-life knights templar, since the people in your example aren't officially condoned and controlled by their respective religious institutions (though I'm sure there are religious leaders who encourage them).  That's the key difference, and it's a big one.

Сообщение изменено: leggywillow, 11 Август 2011 - 06:40 .

[esper]

Fleshdress wrote...

leggywillow wrote...

Fleshdress wrote...
Inaction of a religious leader does not condone bombing a church. I am pissed that gay people don't have rights for nothing more then the way they were born. But bombing a christian church or WBC wouldn't be just or right. Elthina didn't want to be caught up in the politics and did a very good job of staying out of it.

But there's a big problem with this: Elthina's position is a political one as much as it is religious.

I think a lot of the Elthina sympathy (besides her being a kindly old grandma type) is people making too many comparisons to how most modern-day Western religions operate.  They are not political institutions, and their main role in society is to provide comfort.  Elthina would be a model preacher in say, a Methodist church.  But last I checked, most modern-day Christian churches don't have freakin' soldiers under their direct command.

The Chantry comes closer to being like the Catholic Church in the time of Crusades.  It is political, and it holds a great deal of military strength.  The Divine and the templars hold a great deal of political and military power.  Meredith is Elthina's direct subordinate.  The templars are under HER jurisdiction.  In this case, Elthina "staying out of it" is her making a mockery of her own position.  She makes herself powerless and Kirkwall suffers for it.

I really, really don't understand how you can say that Elthina not wanting to be caught up in politics and avoiding them is a point in her favor.  IT IS HER JOB.  She is not a modern-day Baptist preacher with no political sway.  By Act 3, the templars and Meredith hold all the power in Kirkwall without the viscount.  And Elthina is Meredith's boss, or should be if Elthina would DO SOMETHING.

EDIT:  You are mistaken in saying that Elthina is just "part of the organization" and that Meredith actually holds more power than Elthina.  True, by Act 3, I think it would be very difficult for Elthina to oppose Meredith, but if she hadn't been so ineffectual the entire time, it shouldn't have come to that.

Elthina's inaction eroded the power of her position, and the blame for that lies entirely with Elthina herself.

I didn't say or imply that it was a point in her favour, I merely stated she did a handy job of not involving herself or being an active person. In fact just a couple posts up I said she was ineffectual. I just don't think the fact she did nothing a good reason to kill her.

You are mistaken if you think religion doesn't play a part in todays oppression. Yah the church today doesn't have soldiers in the form of armour wearing chaps but it definatly has it's followers that go around raping/beating/murdering in it's name and exploding a church isn't going to make them stop or see the light. It won't make the opressed people rise up either it just makes people kill eachother more, with more reason to justify themselves.

Why would she oppose Meridith? Running under the impression she is just as misinformed as she appears? You hand her papers about the rite and she talks about how they were turned down and then moves on to the murder that happened. I assume that like others she is kept in the dark about the state of the Gallows. Of course with no info to make either path legit all I have is my opinion.

She should be opposing Meridith because Meridith is blocking the nobles from electing a new Vicount which Meridith legally isn't allowed to do and Elthina is responsible for keeping Meridith in line. Elthina does not have the luxary of being NOT involved, her job description is among other to be involved which Elthina knows. 
She is the leader of the chantry which means the leader of templars and she is so well liked that I doubt that any than the most fanatic amongst Meridiths' templars would have supported going against Elthina. Every single drop of blood there is on Meridith's hand is on Elthina's as well through the crime of neglience.     

[Sinaxi]

Problem with her being "misinformed" as people said she "might" have been is once again going back to uhhh...it's her JOB to be informed. I have no idea why people keep saying "the fact she didn't do her job wasn't a reason to kill her" when I have read every single post on here and none of us have said that was a reason. We have given examples as to why we understand she was killed, not that we agreed with it or are trying to justify it but that it makes SENSE to us that she was chosen. We are simply not as forgiving of her as many others seem to be for letting things either "go on under her nose" as some people are saying or as I have said...just not doing anything. At all.

Isn't it funny how every single political figure we meet in DA2 gets chopped off by either us or mutual friends? Arishok chopped off Viscount's head. Arishok gets owned by Hawke in a 1v1. Anders jenga'd little old granny. Hawke stabs Orsino to death. Hawke fights Meredith to her last breath where she then, in an amazing show of irony, turns into one of the very statues meant to inspire fear in slaves that line the Gallows where she has kept Mages imprisoned.

Damn. Hawke & co. cleaned some SERIOUS house. We are kind of awesome. GO TEAM!

Сообщение изменено: Tidra, 11 Август 2011 - 06:48 .

[esper]

Yeah, no wonder that vicount Hawke doesn't stay more than three years max. Being a political leader in Kirkwall comes with a high death ratio.

[Sinaxi]

PFFT. My Hawke was like "Hah! Screw you guys, I'm leaving...and I'm taking my terrorist WITH ME!" Then Hawke & co turned around and walked the hell out of Kirkwall.

Something about that last scene, where the Templars just surround Hawke and then decide to back off and then Hawke is like "K, guys. We're out. PEACE." and just turns and leaves after kicking serious ass is so great to me hahaha.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

It all always boils down to the same argument: can Elthina and the Chantry be considered a political or military target?

Even aside from the Grand Cleric's direct line-of-command relation to the Knight Commander, the Divine is the Generalissimo of the biggest army in the known world, which, as far as I can tell, is responsible for declaring a large number of the world's most significant wars. The Grand Clerics are the Generalissimo's immediate advisers and lieutenants.

To me that spells military target.

Сообщение изменено: CulturalGeekGirl, 11 Август 2011 - 07:28 .

[john-in-france]

Yes CulturalGeekGirl, the Chantry may be taken as a military target if you loosely see Elthina as the head of the local Templar, in fact the Templar general is the Knight Vigilant in Val Royeux, Orlais.
Elthina is the voice of the Chantry in the Free Marches, thus has some sway over Meredith. Sadly in DA2 a Political/Religious Chantry is the reality. The local Grand Cleric can promote someone to fill a place temporarily, but confirmation would have to come from the Knight Vigilant. That is how the military actually works.

The game does state that in Act 3, Meredith no longer follows the advice of Elthina. So, nothing that Elthina says will make a difference.

Cullen refuses to relieve Meredith until she oversteps the line, when he intercedes for the surrendered mages during the Templar ending, then later relieves Meredith of command in the Gallows.

In my opinion, and Judys for that matter, as soldiers, we would not blow up a building with some innocents in just to get at one person, that is called a war crime. We would use the British right to refuse to soldier in that matter, I believe the Americans call this the right to refuse an illegal order.
Now ask me if I'd walk into the Gallows and kill one person aka Meredith, and the answer would be yes.

By the end of the game Meredith is a raving looney tune.