386 réponses à ce sujet

[MG800]

How someone become a Grand Cleric anyway? Does the Divine picks them personally? Or she just approves the recommended lucky person?

[ipgd]

Fleshdress wrote...

Inaction of a religious leader does not condone bombing a church. I am pissed that gay people don't have rights for nothing more then the way they were born. But bombing a christian church or WBC wouldn't be just or right.

Modern gay rights are not comparable to the plight of mages in Thedas. Violent action against government and religious institutions is not necessary in the modern age because mobilizing a peaceful political movement is actually both possible and effective in a way that mages' rights movements simply are not. If gay people were actually locked up in interment camps against their will and disallowed any contact with the outside world, and along with it any opportunity to communicate or organize on a meaningful scale, symbolic terror attacks would start looking much more attractive to rights leaders -- because it would be their only avenue for making political statements.

Saying "violence is always wrong, they should have acted peacefully" is not always an option and displays a good deal of ignorance about the history of rights movements for pretty much any group of people before the advent of the 20th century and the era of mass communication and information. As I mentioned before, the abolition of slavery and civil equality for blacks goes back a long way, and the work of peaceful civil rights leaders like MLK was likely made possible by the people who took the very first decisive actions towards bringing the matter of black rights to center stage.

You are mistaken if you think religion doesn't play a part in todays oppression. Yah the church today doesn't have soldiers in the form of armour wearing chaps but it definatly has it's followers that go around raping/beating/murdering in it's name and exploding a church isn't going to make them stop or see the light. It won't make the opressed people rise up either it just makes people kill eachother more, with more reason to justify themselves.

Again, incomparable. Lunatics striking out individually without organization is leagues away from a sanctioned and controlled military organization under the direct authority of the Chantry. Modern religions have nothing like this. Modern religions cannot be compared to the Chantry any more than modern first world minority rights can.

You can paint it up as pretty as you want but putting a bomb in a soft target to get a point across to a target you can't touch is wrong. Calling bombing the church symbolic doesn't justify it, and all it sybolized was that mages were as crazy and dangerous as the entire world believed. What Anders wanted was to make sure the Circles were torn down, a stupid thing to do given the number a crazy freaking "free" mages we run into over the course of the game. The Circles are needed, they also need to be changed.

I wasn't attempting to justify it. Just the fact that assassinating Meredith is repeatedly being suggested as an alternative to killing Elthina means some people apparently have a fundamental misunderstanding as to what exactly Anders was trying to accomplish with the bombing of the Chantry.

On the matter of Circles needing to be changed -- they hadn't changed for a thousand years. It wasn't like there was no one in the past thousand years who would have advocated for reform and taken a peaceful political stand for mages' rights. If anything, their history is all the proof that is really necessary to know that the Circles simply do not exist in the requisite social climate for peaceful reform, and judging by the Kirkwall Circle, that situation was not improving any -- what makes you think that they would just suddenly get better? Are the confirmed deaths of seven people, six of whom either belonged to or was in technical position of authority over a military organization, really worth the continued potential suffering, Tranquility and deaths of scores upon scores of future generations of mages? Are those people really so precious that they are worth more than the rights of an entire minority group? Anders's actions may very well change everything, and I'm not prepared to say that Elthina getting an extra 10 or 20 years to live is worth more than potentially putting an end to the systematic oppression, rape, torture, lobotomization and murder of mages that is endemic in the Circles and Templar Order.

I'm also not sure why whether or not Elthina "deserved to die" is an issue. No one here is suggesting she deserved to die for her incompetence. Anders didn't think she deserved to die -- he believed her death was necessary, but also believed that she and the other innocent victims of his attack deserved justice themselves and that his actions were such that he would need to be punished. She doesn't deserve to die, but neither do mages deserve their plight, and it's simply not a clear cut issue of right and wrong when her death could be responsible for the beginning of the first real and politically potent mage rights movement since the inception of the Chantry and the Circle. You're free to disagree, but the idea that terrorism is only ever done by evil people for evil reasons is just wrong and terribly short sighted.

Modifié par ipgd, 11 août 2011 - 01:12 .

[nos_astra]

ipgd wrote...
On the matter of Circles needing to be changed -- they hadn't changed for a thousand years. It wasn't like there was no one in the past thousand years who would have advocated for reform and taken a peaceful political stand for mages' rights.

Sorry, is there a time limit for such a developement to take place? They've had a thousand years, maybe they'll need another thousand years to grow out of it. I feel their society lacks the basics for accepting mages among them without fearing them. They don't even accept city elves as equals.

[esper]

klarabella wrote...

ipgd wrote...
On the matter of Circles needing to be changed -- they hadn't changed for a thousand years. It wasn't like there was no one in the past thousand years who would have advocated for reform and taken a peaceful political stand for mages' rights.

Sorry, is there a time limit for such a developement to take place? They've had a thousand years, maybe they'll need another thousand years to grow out of it. I feel their society lacks the basics for accepting mages among them without fearing them. They don't even accept city elves as equals.

If nothing has changed in a 1000 years they are unlikely to change in the next 1000 years. As for the elves - unless some of them do something it is not going to change for them either. 

[nos_astra]

esper wrote...
If nothing has changed in a 1000 years they are unlikely to change in the next 1000 years. As for the elves - unless some of them do something it is not going to change for them either. 

What makes you think that? Is there a secret rule or something? Because I don't feel the urge to change the world my character lives in. I'd like to play something more subtle than: Raaaaawrrrrr, you are all idiots. Our ways are so wrong, we should change everything right now!

Modifié par klarabella, 11 août 2011 - 01:53 .

[esper]

klarabella wrote...

esper wrote...
If nothing has changed in a 1000 years they are unlikely to change in the next 1000 years. As for the elves - unless some of them do something it is not going to change for them either. 

What makes you think that? Is there a secret rule or something? Because I don't feel the urge to change the world my character lives in. I'd like to play something more subtle than: Raaaaawrrrrr, you are all idiots. Our ways are so wrong, we should change everything right now!

No. It is the urge to leave the world a little bit better for the next generation so they musn't suffer the same, and if the alternative is doing nothing which it sounds like you propose then I am going to quote Anders: 'I prefe action over sloth'.

[ipgd]

klarabella wrote...

Sorry, is there a time limit for such a developement to take place? They've had a thousand years, maybe they'll need another thousand years to grow out of it. I feel their society lacks the basics for accepting mages among them without fearing them. They don't even accept city elves as equals.

To restate: you think another thousand years of oppression is worth the 20 on the outset years Elthina had left?

What Anders did could be the catalyst for significant change in the favor of mages' rights. I'm not sure how you can stretch Terrorism and Killing Are Always Wrong to the point where another thousand years of this is preferable. Sometimes an act of terrorism is the lesser of two evils.

We won't be able to know exactly what Anders accomplished until they actually, you know, show us, but on the assumption that he is largely successful in what he set out to do, history will likely vindicate him -- as it does for most of the terrorists (whitewashed into a more palatable term) that instigate successful movements.

Modifié par ipgd, 11 août 2011 - 02:16 .

[mesmerizedish]

My disappointment: no option to sleep with Elthina. Threesome with Sebastian would have been even better.

[rak72]

I'm not going to quote sections from each wall of text on the last 2 pages, I will just say this.  The 9/11 hijackers firmly believed they were hitting a "military" target, all terroists do.   I would like to see how you people would explain to a 5yr old who's father didn't come home from work one day because he needed to decide between jumping out of a 17 story window or being BBQed like a roast pig, that he was simply co-latteral damage.  Or expain to a once vibrant 35 year old fireman that was cleaning up bodies and debris for months, and is now dying of a mysterious lung disease, that it's all part of "la revolucion".

Maybe the hijackers just needed a beter "publicist"  like someone sugested for Anders on his thread.  Maybe explain to the world thaty they are ok guys because they like kitty cats, and we should feel sorry for them because someone made them give their kitty cat to a better home.  The Fanders people have a lot invested in his character.  They spent over a year wrighting FF's and drawing cute kitty pictures before DA2 was even released.  He was a cute, sweet funny guy and I was like   when I found out he was in DA2.  After I saw what they turned him into, it was more like .  I wonder if the Fanders people just can't let go of cute, cuddly Aders   ,   and would be jumping through hoops to justify his actions if all they knew was Douchey McDouche Mage.

Some thing are black and white, and yes, Tidra, you are litteraly asinine if you think othewise.   And shame on you, Bioware, for even attempting to make it seem like there is a gray side to terrorism.

I'll let you get ack to your Anders Squeeing now.

Modifié par rak72, 11 août 2011 - 02:24 .

[mesmerizedish]

The American Revolution began as terrorism, and it created the greatest system of government in the world. That's at LEAST grey.

Sorry if my patriotism is asinine, though.

[ipgd]

9/11 is not the only instance of terrorism that has ever occured in history. Almost every successful movement before the 20th century began with terrorism, including, yes, things like the American Revolution and abolition, which are near universally recognized as positive social and moral developments within our culture.

Saying that terrorism is black and white demonstrates a huge ignorance of history; though the media has created hysteria over the term since 9/11, believing that anyone or anything attached to the label is somehow completely akin and equivalent to the attackers of 9/11 (whose actual goals and motivations are also incredibly obfuscated by the media, to the point where almost no one in America has any idea what they stand for beyond "They Hate Freedom") is the truly asinine thing. Many of the freedoms we enjoy today are because of terrorists vindicated and whitewashed by history.


edit: also lol you have some bizarre ass ideas about anderps fans, man. i'm sure flanderizing the people you disagree with into mindless fangirls makes it easier for you to feel superior but that's not actually how it works

Modifié par ipgd, 11 août 2011 - 02:37 .

[Masako52]

rak72 wrote...

Maybe the hijackers just needed a beter "publicist"  like someone sugested for Anders on his thread.  Maybe explain to the world thaty they are ok guys because they like kitty cats, and we should feel sorry for them because someone made them give their kitty cat to a better home.  The Fanders people have a lot invested in his character.  They spent over a year wrighting FF's and drawing cute kitty pictures before DA2 was even released.  He was a cute, sweet funny guy and I was like   when I found out he was in DA2.  After I saw what they turned him into, it was more like .  I wonder if the Fanders people just can't let go of cute, cuddly Aders   ,   and would be jumping through hoops to justify his actions if all they knew was Douchey McDouche Mage.

Some thing are black and white, and yes, Tidra, you are litteraly asinine if you think othewise.   And shame on you, Bioware, for even attempting to make it seem like there is a gray side to terrorism.

I'll let you get ack to your Anders Squeeing now.

I don't think anyone's saying that what Anders' did wasn't an act of destruction and even possibly terrorism (which tends to mean the goal of striking fear into masses, which I don't think was Anders' goal, but I'm ambivalent about arguing that definition). And I don't think anyone's condoning his actions. But let's be honest - he probably killed maybe 5 Andrastian sisters, and that's it. Including Elthina. That's not really comparable to the 9/11 hijackers. Additionally, considering these weren't "only targets" but Elthina, who has failed Kirkwall so miserably.

Makes you wonder at which point killing someone stops being "murder" and starts being "assassination."

I think Anders' character is brilliant precisely because of DA2. In Awakening, he was kinda, well. He was all right, I guess, and he grew on me, but he seemed a little cliche. In DA2, sh*t was going down with him. Though I do wish the first Act would've featured more "bubbly" Anders, since it's so close to the events of Awakening, he's already possessed by Justice and so maybe that's not even reasonable.

And I object to your "shame on Bioware for showing a gray side" on "terrorism." Life always is gray, that's what makes it life. You can still have an opinion on whether something was right or wrong, but it's one thing to stand away and judge. It's another to look into that person's eyes and see why they did what they did and maybe recognize a bigger problem (i.e. a society that breeds terrorism is a bigger problem than one terrorist himself). 

But this isn't an Anders thread. I DO think Elthina had it coming. Elthina might as well have helped Anders make the bombs for all the good she did. Elthina didn't "deserve" to die in a moral sense, because I believe no one "deserves" to die. True, Elthina never killed anyone with her own hands. But her actions caused hundreds of deaths. In a way, by shirking her duty and ignoring the conflict, when she had the power to mediate, you could say she's the biggest murderer in the game.

I could be babysitting a bunch of children, and one of them finds a handgun. I could take out a Bible and start reading that, while they start shooting each other. Occasionally, I might say, "Hey guys, don't play too rough, okay?" and then go back to reading. That's essentially what Elthina did.

[Rinji the Bearded]

rak72 wrote...

I'm not going to quote sections from each wall of text on the last 2 pages, I will just say this.  The 9/11 hijackers firmly believed they were hitting a "military" target, all terroists do.   I would like to see how you people would explain to a 5yr old who's father didn't come home from work one day because he needed to decide between jumping out of a 17 story window or being BBQed like a roast pig, that he was simply co-latteral damage.  Or expain to a once vibrant 35 year old fireman that was cleaning up bodies and debris for months, and is now dying of a mysterious lung disease, that it's all part of "la revolucion".

Maybe the hijackers just needed a beter "publicist"  like someone sugested for Anders on his thread.  Maybe explain to the world thaty they are ok guys because they like kitty cats, and we should feel sorry for them because someone made them give their kitty cat to a better home.  The Fanders people have a lot invested in his character.  They spent over a year wrighting FF's and drawing cute kitty pictures before DA2 was even released.  He was a cute, sweet funny guy and I was like   when I found out he was in DA2.  After I saw what they turned him into, it was more like .  I wonder if the Fanders people just can't let go of cute, cuddly Aders   ,   and would be jumping through hoops to justify his actions if all they knew was Douchey McDouche Mage.

Some thing are black and white, and yes, Tidra, you are litteraly asinine if you think othewise.   And shame on you, Bioware, for even attempting to make it seem like there is a gray side to terrorism.

I'll let you get ack to your Anders Squeeing now.

No, we like Anders because he's an interesting character that does interesting things, and because he's well-written and has a large impact on the story.  Not because we "can't let go of cute, cuddly Aders" (sic). 

And there are plenty instances where terrorism is much more grey than you realize.  Not to mention almost revolution that has occurred in the history of mankind, including the American Revolution, but what about the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, which was an act meant to end a war but killed tens of thousands of people and caused suffering for years and years later down the road?

America's pretty apt at terrorism.  Just saying.

You need to take a look at your own arguments before  you start slinging that "asinine" word around.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 11 août 2011 - 02:45 .

[nos_astra]

esper wrote...
No. It is the urge to leave the world a little bit better for the next generation so they musn't suffer the same, and if the alternative is doing nothing which it sounds like you propose then I am going to quote Anders: 'I prefe action over sloth'.

At any cost? Even if it means a very high risk of sacrificing many people and ending up worse? Just because slower prgression is to hard and we want it NOW.

[nos_astra]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
The American Revolution began as terrorism, ...

I know next to nothing about it, but I think it was largely supported by the population. Not something forced on the majority (like what Anders does).

[rak72]

Read back and see who exactly started throwing the word"asinine" around.

The glorification of terrorism on these boards is sick and disgusting, I'm not even going to look anymore. keep spouting that it's ok because the revolutionaries did it. I just hope it never hits any of your families in a meaningful way.

Modifié par rak72, 11 août 2011 - 02:49 .

[ipgd]

klarabella wrote...

At any cost? Even if it means a very high risk of sacrificing many people and ending up worse? Just because slower prgression is to hard and we want it NOW.

Slow progression also means the deaths of probably tens or hundreds of thousands of mages who have to live in that broken system. If the deaths of seven people and the few hundred that will die in the coming revolution is enough to stop the systematic torture and murder of mages now, it stops being a clear cut matter of right and wrong.

rak72 wrote...

Read back and see who exactly started throwing the word"asinine" around.

The glorification of terrorism on these boards is sick and disgusting, I'm not even going to look anymore.  keep spouting that it's ok because the revolutionaries did it.  I just hope it never hits any of your families in a meaningful way.

Terrorism has been "glorified" throughout history, bra. You can shut your eyes and plug your ears and pretend none of it ever happened and that all terrorists are evil and exactly like the 9/11 attackers, but that doesn't change the fact that our society is built upon terrorism. It's willful ignorance.

Modifié par ipgd, 11 août 2011 - 02:51 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

klarabella wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
The American Revolution began as terrorism, ...

I know next to nothing about it, but I think it was largely supported by the population. Not something forced on the majority (like what Anders does).

Actually no, there were plenty of people who didn't want to start a war, either.   There were the Loyalists, Quakers, Neutralists... it wasn't a unanimous decision either.  And you can also bet that Loyalists, Quakers, and Neutralists were sometimes killed in the crossfire.

rak72 wrote...

Read back and see who exactly started throwing the word"asinine" around.

The
glorification of terrorism on these boards is sick and disgusting, I'm
not even going to look anymore. keep spouting that it's ok because the
revolutionaries did it. I just hope it never hits any of your families
in a meaningful way.

I don't think you actually read my post at all.  I did not say terrorism was "ok," I just merely pointed out that 9/11 wasn't the only act of terrorism, and that it isn't quite as black and white as you think it is.  But go ahead, bury your head in the sand about it.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 11 août 2011 - 02:52 .

[mesmerizedish]

rak72 wrote...

Read back and see who exactly started throwing the word"asinine" around.

The glorification of terrorism on these boards is sick and disgusting, I'm not even going to look anymore. keep spouting that it's ok because the revolutionaries did it. I just hope it never hits any of your families in a meaningful way.

That's a pretty wide brush you're painting me with.

I never said Anders was right. I said *you* were wrong. Which you are.

[nos_astra]

ipgd wrote...
To restate: you think another thousand years of oppression is worth the 20 on the outset years Elthina had left?

No, I think you can't force change on a world that isn't ready for it without destroying it or causing a lot of suffering. Without wide support from the people of Thedas things will not improve for the mages.

Modifié par klarabella, 11 août 2011 - 02:55 .

[nos_astra]

RinjiRenee wrote...
Actually no, there were plenty of people who didn't want to start a war, either.   There were the Loyalists, Quakers, Neutralists... it wasn't a unanimous decision either.  And you can also bet that Loyalists, Quakers, and Neutralists were sometimes killed in the crossfire.

I don't doubt that there were plenty of people who didn't want change or remained neutral, but still widely supported, I assume.

I just doubt it could have been done with virtually no support at all, like is the case of the mages.

[Rinji the Bearded]

klarabella wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...
Actually no, there were plenty of people who didn't want to start a war, either.   There were the Loyalists, Quakers, Neutralists... it wasn't a unanimous decision either.  And you can also bet that Loyalists, Quakers, and Neutralists were sometimes killed in the crossfire.

I don't doubt that there were plenty of people who didn't want change or remained neutral, but still widely supported, I assume.

I just doubt it could have been done with virtually no support at all, like is the case of the mages.

You assume, but "Historian Robert Middlekauff estimates that about 500,000 colonists, or
19 percent of the population, remained loyal to Britain."  That's a pretty hefty number of people, and this number doesn't include the Quakers or the Neutralists, or the non-combatants in general.

You're also assuming that the mages have no support.   They have no support from the Templars to be certain, but it seems like the Chantry (Seekers) doesn't want to go to war with them either.   It's not really a two-sided fight here.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 11 août 2011 - 02:59 .

[nos_astra]

ipgd wrote...

klarabella wrote...
At any cost? Even if it means a very high risk of sacrificing many people and ending up worse? Just because slower prgression is to hard and we want it NOW.

Slow progression also means the deaths of probably tens or hundreds of thousands of mages who have to live in that broken system. If the deaths of seven people and the few hundred that will die in the coming revolution is enough to stop the systematic torture and murder of mages now, it stops being a clear cut matter of right and wrong.

A war or a mage revolution will end up killing as many people on all sides. And the result is not a given. You assume they will win, which is unlikely.

Also, the system of systematic torture and abuse is maybe just a flawed system that can't prevent torture and abuse from happening. It's not exactly clear, some things outright contradicting each other. From a modern POV the circles are a grey area even without the torture and abuse part.

[Knight of Dane]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

The American Revolution began as terrorism, and it created the greatest system of government in the world. That's at LEAST grey.

Sorry if my patriotism is asinine, though.

It's okay Isma, we all know you mean that system with no construction whatsoever

[nos_astra]

RinjiRenee wrote...
You assume, but "Historian Robert Middlekauff estimates that about 500,000 colonists, or
19 percent of the population, remained loyal to Britain."  That's a pretty hefty number of people, and this number doesn't include the Quakers or the Neutralists, or the non-combatants in general.

Compare this to Thedas: 50% (wild guesstimate) are anti-mage and support the chantry. The the rest is pro-mage or neutral, with strong tendency to neutral.

You're also assuming that the mages have no support.   They have no
support from the Templars to be certain, but it seems like the Chantry
(Seekers) doesn't want to go to war with them either.   It's not really a
two-sided fight here.

According to the lore they don't have any support. The society fears mages.

Modifié par klarabella, 11 août 2011 - 03:04 .