386 réponses à ce sujet

[ipgd]

klarabella wrote...

ipgd wrote...
To restate: you think another thousand years of oppression is worth the 20 on the outset years Elthina had left?

No, I think you can't force change on a world that isn't ready for it without destroying it or causing a lot of suffering. Without wide support from the people of Thedas things will not improve for the mages.

Whether or not Anders will be successful is a different argument from whether or not his actions are ultimately justifiable, which is necessarily dependant on moral relativism and consequentialism. If his actions are all for naught, of course he will not be consequentially justified -- but assuming his revolution is ultimately successful, how exactly do you draw the line? When does the status quo and atrocities commited through inaction become more reprehensible than a proactive violent statement? Is the acceptability of an atrocity solely defined by active intent? Is it really that much more acceptable to do nothing and allow the suffering of hundreds of generations than it is to take direct initiative and kill a dozen individuals?

klarabella wrote...

A war or a mage revolution will end up killing as many people on all sides. And the result is not a given. You assume they will win, which is unlikely.

It's not really possible to have a real argument about the likelihood of the success of the mage revolution given the presence of writer prerogative, which is not a variable in real life revolutions. One can assume that the mage revolution will take considerable ground simply because having it be quashed outright isn't very much of a story. We also just plain don't know enough to draw any definitive conclusions, meta considerations aside (which I still think are more important than most of the in-continuity concerns).

Modifié par ipgd, 11 août 2011 - 03:07 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

klarabella wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...
You assume, but "Historian Robert Middlekauff estimates that about 500,000 colonists, or
19 percent of the population, remained loyal to Britain."  That's a pretty hefty number of people, and this number doesn't include the Quakers or the Neutralists, or the non-combatants in general.

Compare this to Thedas: 50% (wild guesstimate) are anti-mage and support the chantry. The the rest is pro-mage or neutral, with strong tendency to neutral.

You're also assuming that the mages have no support.   They have no
support from the Templars to be certain, but it seems like the Chantry
(Seekers) doesn't want to go to war with them either.   It's not really a
two-sided fight here.

According to the lore they don't have any support. The society fears mages.

These are all assumptions.  You're also assuming that lore is always 100% correct.  What about Alistair, for example, who believes that the Mages should be allowed to be freed?  Do you think he's the only non-mage who thinks this way?

On topic of Elthina, I would love to get my hands on this article.  What, assuming Elthina/the Chantry is to blame as much as the others? Say it isn't so!!

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 11 août 2011 - 03:10 .

[Ryzaki]

I will never understand that.

Elthina I can understand because it was her job to uphold the law of the chantry. But blaming a bystander for a crime someone else committed because they didn't interfere?

So much for personal freedom.

[RagingCyclone]

Ok, I keep reading this thing, and I was going to say something, then decided not, well now I am. And for this just throw terrorism out the window...leave it out since it's a polarized argument that gets nowhere except to polarize people even more and distract from the discussion in the first place.

First, Elthina is both a political and religious figure so she has double duty. Her main goal is to hold onto the fragile peace that exists in Kirkwall. She has to work with an incompitent (sp) Knight Commander of the Templars, an inept First Enchanter, and a weak Viscount who is more concerned with his political image than actually working towards solutions.

Second, the seeds of discontent about the current Circle sytem are already evident in Act 1. There is a mage Underground already in place with some Templars and commonfolk helping them. The mages have friends. By Act 3 this is even more apparent with more people helping the depressed mages (and no I do not mean mental state by definition, use supressed if it makes you understand the term better). Meredith uses extreme measures causing more extreme measures by mages. By tightening her grip Meredith is also losing her Templars. By this time Elthina is almost removed from the equation because she is now overwhelmed by events happening around her.

Third, Vengeance (I refuse to call him Anders because he isn't) has anger and rage building up. In Acts 1 and 2 he has periods of clarity, and even at times will admit he was perhaps wrong in his assumptions of the Chantry, he even has this in Legacy. It is the main reason why he waits to act on his need for his namesake. By Act 3 everything he says and does is to enact a plan he already has in mind and seeking justification for carrying out said plan. Whether Hawke helps him or not, Vengeance is going to blow up the Chantry. And he has no real plan or focus. He is blind vengeance at the point he blows up the Chantry. Again, whatever he says is him looking for justification for what he is about to do.

Finally, when the destruction occurs, where many of you are leaning soley on Vengeance becoming a martyr, you are alll forgetting that the opposite is also true. From the moment the building blows up mages will be held responsible by the populace. Every friend the mages had are now GONE!. Every commoner, Templar, noble, even chantry folk will now abandon the mages for an atrocity whose blame lies at the hands and feet of mages. Elthina's name will become their martyr just as Vengeance will become the mages. Whereas before there was a chance for a slow, but beneficial resolution to the situation, now there will be a clearcut war. Yes, the former would still most likely have a war, the sides would have been muddled with the mages not being left alone. Now in the coming war there is a real possiblilty of genocide where it's them against everyone else. That's what Vengeance's actions have seeded. He will not stop. I know some believe that when he is spared and expresses guilt that they can ride off into the sunset and have a happy life. That is a pipe dream because again he is not Anders nor is he Justice, nor is he both. He is Vengeance, and he will act again, but with escalation. If blowing up a Chantry was not enough to get what he wanted, then he will then move to bigger targets.

I leave you now to continue your name calling and finger pointing.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Masako52 wrote...

Anyone else thought she kind of had it coming?

I didn't like her at all. I think some of the blame for the whole Mages vs. Templars massacre has to be put on her. This is Elthina's "impressive" resume...

• Refused to mitigate a continuously heating situation between Mages and Templars, when she had the power to influence and at least lessen the tension, even if she couldn't stop it all together (also debatable)
• Justified this prior to Act 3 by claiming she just wants to focus on religion, when she is in charge of Meredith's Templars and they are duty-bound to obey her.
• Justified this in Act 3 with a wishy-washy "I thought after the Qunari everyone would want peace, so I didn't expect other groups to try to take power even though the Viscount was killed!" Um, Politics 101, lady. Or more like Reality 101...
• She also does nothing to publicly denounce the behavior of the Templars or Meredith, even when it's clear how militant the order has become in Kirkwall.
• Housed the murderer Mother Petrice. I don't know what's worse, if Elthina was aware that Petrice was using her name to justify inciting hatred against the qunari (and very clearly jeopardizing, even destroying lives in the process) or if Elthina was stupid enough to not be aware of it. Especially since it was going on for YEARS, and Petrice was even PROMOTED by Act 2. Petrice ONLY gets kicked out of the Chantry when Hawke catches her red-handed murdering the Viscount's son.
• When the Divine send Leliana to evaluate the situation in Kirkwall, once they had heard things were getting out of hand, Elthina has you go and assure them that everything is just peachy and they don't need to intervene.

Everything she says and does makes me want to slap her. Were we actually supposed to like her? I don't have a problem with her being a character, but I still wanted to brofist Anders when he blew up the Chantry because of her alone. It's cute that she refused to flee to Orlais because she wanted to stay with the people of Kirkwall, but I think by being a lame duck grand cleric she already failed them, with her inaction resulting in countless deaths.

Also, my Warden would have been personally offended at her line "The Maker stopped the Blight." If the Maker was helping out, he could have at least made those damn crossbows stop jamming during the final battle with the Archdemon. :innocent:

  After reading this, I really want to give you a big hug. Elthina was a waste of space, a I think perhaps more responsible for Kirkwall's state than anyone else, since she was the one who is in charge of Meredith, who is in turn in charge of Kirkwall.
[*]And yeah. I don't personally agree with Anders actions in terms of the broader scheme of things, but heal yeah. I totally wanted to fist bump the night away with Anders watching that sequence. The only crime to me here is that Elthina was not replaced years before so this whole mess could have been avoided.

[nos_astra]

RinjiRenee wrote...
These are all assumptions.  You're also assuming that lore is always 100% correct.  What about Alistair, for example, who believes that the Mages should be allowed to be freed?  Do you think he's the only non-mage who thinks this way?

I never understood why on earth Alistair is suddenly eerily close to pro-mage revolutionary. it's not like anything special happened to make him change his mind entirely. In Origins he was very willing to gleefully kill a blood mage and even suggested that abomination Connor should be killed in the first place. And of course hated Morrigan, in part for her being an apostate.

One thing I hate about the world building is sloppiness and contradicting information. But otherwise, yes. The lore is what the games and books should tell us. While the games suck at an accurate depiction, the books are very informative and can help you put things in the right perspective.

So yes, mages are widely feared. So much that people will actually kill mage children if the templars don't arrive in time.

[nos_astra]

RagingCyclone wrote...
From the moment the building blows up mages will be held responsible by the populace. Every friend the mages had are now GONE!. Every commoner, Templar, noble, even chantry folk will now abandon the mages for an atrocity whose blame lies at the hands and feet of mages.  

That's exactly what would naturally happen after the destruction of the chantry and Elthina's death. Elthina would become a martyr, while the mages in general would be blamed for her death.

Nothing short of a writer's a** pull should be able to change that.

[Rinji the Bearded]

klarabella wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...
These are all assumptions.  You're also assuming that lore is always 100% correct.  What about Alistair, for example, who believes that the Mages should be allowed to be freed?  Do you think he's the only non-mage who thinks this way?

I never understood why on earth Alistair is suddenly eerily close to pro-mage revolutionary. it's not like anything special happened to make him change his mind entirely. In Origins he was very willing to gleefully kill a blood mage and even suggested that abomination Connor should be killed in the first place. And of course hated Morrigan, in part for her being an apostate.

One thing I hate about the world building is sloppiness and contradicting information. But otherwise, yes. The lore is what the games and books should tell us. While the games suck at an accurate depiction, the books are very informative and can help you put things in the right perspective.

So yes, mages are widely feared. So much that people will actually kill mage children if the templars don't arrive in time.

Considering there are both pro-white chantry and pro-black chantry lore books, I'd assume that the lore is written with biases on purpose.

Mages are feared, yes.  But much of that is caused by Chantry propaganda.  How about the people outside of the influence of the Chantry, or places where the Chantry doesn't have a strong hold?  Those people count, but we never hear of them because the lore is heavily Chantry-biased.

Not to mention the underground guilds, the carta and the like, who think it's perfectly fine to hire mages as they see fit.  Not everyone fears them as much as you seem to assume.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 11 août 2011 - 03:45 .

[congealeddgtllvr]

ipgd wrote...
You're free to disagree, but the idea that terrorism is only ever done by evil people for evil reasons is just wrong and terribly short sighted.

I think people are just calling the act of terrorism evil.  From a Kantian perspective killing an innocent is always wrong and intent is irrelevant.  In order to escape the Kantian view you need an ideology.  Anders has his and the Chantry has theirs and both justify the killing of innocents for "the greater good."  So who is to say the equal rights of mages is more moral than the protection of muggles?

There really is no real world equivalent for mages, the power they possess and the dangers they are subject to.  One thing I notice consistently among the pro mage crowd is a casual dismissal of these dangers and powers.  This is something Gaider has expressed frustration over but it's his own fault for not conveying it sufficiently and focusing too much on the "templars are teh evuls bwahahaha" side of things, imo.  

I always liked the ideas behind the DA treatment of magic.  If the end result of this war is people with superpowers and the ability to control minds and a huge potential to become raging psychos at any second living side by side happily with muggles I will be dissapoint.  But given the huge outcry about not being able to save the universe and poop rainbows that is probably exactly what will happen.  *sigh*  

Personally I hope the war will be incredibly devastating for both sides and that massive civillian casualties will result.  That would be truer to most historical revolutions, after all.  And mages have more firepower than any real historical force.  

All I can say is that if I were the Archon I'd be p*ssing my robes for joy right now.  The dawn of a new Tevinter hegemony may truly be at hand!  Though given the general incompetence of leaders in Thedas we may have nothing to worry about.  He is probably no Emhyr.  <_<

Modifié par congealeddgtllvr, 11 août 2011 - 07:13 .

[Masako52]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

After reading this, I really want to give you a big hug. Elthina was a waste of space, a I think perhaps more responsible for Kirkwall's state than anyone else, since she was the one who is in charge of Meredith, who is in turn in charge of Kirkwall.

And yeah. I don't personally agree with Anders actions in terms of the broader scheme of things, but heal yeah. I totally wanted to fist bump the night away with Anders watching that sequence. The only crime to me here is that Elthina was not replaced years before so this whole mess could have been avoided.

I take hugs!

Anders is such a troll. I mean, yeah, he totally ruined any chance at peaceful compromise. But then again, Elthina wasn't going to do anything at all, so really he didn't change anything besides personally making a few enemies (and a few BFFs, in my case).

I think the thing about Kirkwall is that every powerful and political group is corrupt. The Templars are corrupt, the Mages are corrupt, the Chantry is corrupt and the Viscount, well. Doesn't have a head.

What's really shocking is that Kirkwall lasted as long as it did, with each political leader being so incredibly.... bad.

[Rinji the Bearded]

I leave this topic saying that I think mages, templars, the Chantry (both black and white) are all jerks of equal level.

[jlb524]

klarabella wrote...

I never understood why on earth Alistair is suddenly eerily close to pro-mage revolutionary. it's not like anything special happened to make him change his mind entirely. In Origins he was very willing to gleefully kill a blood mage and even suggested that abomination Connor should be killed in the first place. And of course hated Morrigan, in part for her being an apostate.

Perhaps because not all mages are blood mages or consort with demons?

I got the impression he was wary of Morrigan at first b/c she was an apostate, but he grew to dislike her b/c she was a b*tch.

[SurelyForth]

Alistair also adored Wynne like a grandmother and had a noted interest in the arcane.

Also, his mom is totally a mage and maybe they finally met off-screen during DA2?

[john-in-france]

rak72 wrote...

The glorification of terrorism on these boards is sick and disgusting, I'm not even going to look anymore. keep spouting that it's ok because the revolutionaries did it. I just hope it never hits any of your families in a meaningful way.

I agree.

I also hate the bandying about of legitimate military target by those who have never served in the military and just watch movies/games about it.

War Crimes and Terrorism should never be glorified.

John: 30 Years in the Black Watch, retired Sergeant-Major.
Judy: 14 Years in the Army Medical Corps, retired Captain. 

[Sinaxi]

rak72 wrote...

I'm not going to quote sections from each wall of text on the last 2 pages, I will just say this.  The 9/11 hijackers firmly believed they were hitting a "military" target, all terroists do.   I would like to see how you people would explain to a 5yr old who's father didn't come home from work one day because he needed to decide between jumping out of a 17 story window or being BBQed like a roast pig, that he was simply co-latteral damage.  Or expain to a once vibrant 35 year old fireman that was cleaning up bodies and debris for months, and is now dying of a mysterious lung disease, that it's all part of "la revolucion".

Maybe the hijackers just needed a beter "publicist"  like someone sugested for Anders on his thread.  Maybe explain to the world thaty they are ok guys because they like kitty cats, and we should feel sorry for them because someone made them give their kitty cat to a better home.  The Fanders people have a lot invested in his character.  They spent over a year wrighting FF's and drawing cute kitty pictures before DA2 was even released.  He was a cute, sweet funny guy and I was like   when I found out he was in DA2.  After I saw what they turned him into, it was more like .  I wonder if the Fanders people just can't let go of cute, cuddly Aders   ,   and would be jumping through hoops to justify his actions if all they knew was Douchey McDouche Mage.

Some thing are black and white, and yes, Tidra, you are litteraly asinine if you think othewise.   And shame on you, Bioware, for even attempting to make it seem like there is a gray side to terrorism.

I'll let you get ack to your Anders Squeeing now.

Hah, oh that's funny...considering I never even played Awakening and therefore the first Anders that I saw was in DA2 so no, I don't have a lot invested that I "can't let go of". But nice try. I'm also assuming you had to look up the word asinine...perhaps you should look up the word ignorance next if you think the world is black and white. Especially if you think the fictional world of Thedas is black and white.

But good job spouting off more BS about 9/11 that has practically no relevance to what Anders did (IN THEDAS) besides the fact that it was also a bombing.

[leggywillow]

rak72 wrote...

::ridiculous snip::

I'll let you get ack to your Anders Squeeing now.

Oh for the love of god, how ridiculous.

Anders is a terrorist.  Anders did something horrible.  Yes, we know, and most Anders fans agree with this (though enjoying a fictional character for being tragic and interesting is a bit different than being a real-life terrorist sympathizer.  We can't all enjoy the boring lump that is Sebastian).

But still, you can't compare the plight of mages in Thedas to whatever injustice modern-day terrorists are trying to address.  It's a violent medieval world.  If you remember your history, nonviolent solutions to sweeping injustices is a pretty recent development.  And again, the plight of mages doesn't compare to a lot of modern religious persecution or the persecution of gays/blacks/whatever else is in this thread.

EDIT: Seriously, stop with the personal attacks on the Anders fans.  I get that you don't like him, and for valid reasons.  He has some pretty villainous tendencies in the game.  But he's fictional.  Fictional characters should be interesting first and "good" second.

Modifié par leggywillow, 11 août 2011 - 04:46 .

[Sinaxi]

leggywillow wrote...

rak72 wrote...

::ridiculous snip::

I'll let you get ack to your Anders Squeeing now.

Oh for the love of god, how ridiculous.

Anders is a terrorist.  Anders did something horrible.  Yes, we know, and most Anders fans agree with this (though enjoying a fictional character for being tragic and interesting is a bit different than being a real-life terrorist sympathizer.  We can't all enjoy the boring lump that is Sebastian).

But still, you can't compare the plight of mages in Thedas to whatever injustice modern-day terrorists are trying to address.  It's a violent medieval world.  If you remember your history, nonviolent solutions to sweeping injustices is a pretty recent development.  And again, the plight of mages doesn't compare to a lot of modern religious persecution or the persecution of gays/blacks/whatever else is in this thread.

I don't think she should be pointing fingers since she can't even *attempt* to look at a viewpoint that is not her own (especially when it comes to her precious Sebastian) There is no sense in trying to "debate" with her, since that would assume she had an ounce of reason to even try to understand a different viewpoint. (Or I suppose I could call that intelligence)

Quote ipgd for good measure:
Terrorism has been "glorified" throughout history, bra. You can shut your eyes and plug your ears and pretend none of it ever happened and that all terrorists are evil and exactly like the 9/11 attackers, but that doesn't change the fact that our society is built upon terrorism. It's willful ignorance.

Modifié par Tidra, 11 août 2011 - 04:45 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

No. I never had the urge to slap Elthina. Instead she was my favorite character in DA2. I loved the way you could interact with her. Her topics changed depending on the progression of the stories she was part of. Even if she didn't have the quest marker above her head her topics were available. She also had something to say about your family. More or less she interacted as I hoped my companions would. Alas, I couldn't make her act after certain events. It would have been great if she could in earlier parts of the game. That way her death would even be more touching. I think the Sebastian DLC gave her some more attention. I thought she was well portrayed. Anyway... In short: I loved that character.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 11 août 2011 - 04:51 .

[john-in-france]

History is written by the winners.
That does not make it right, just what happened. Or an edited version of what really happened.

An honorable man or woman strives to remain true to some ideals even in war, and the harming of innocents is not one of them. It is called moral values or used to be.

For the Templar this is the Andrastean faith.
For Circle Mages this is the Andrastean faith.
Anders obviously never talked to Orsino about freeing him, so Anders or maybe Justice was really working alone or with the violent Revolutionists.

Yes you will get bad guys in both factions. That is both reality and fiction.
 
Politicians don't give a rats ass. Historians write what is politically correct at the time that they write it.

Elthina tried to be a peacemaker, to both of the other sides she would seem weak, arguing for peace rather than war. She didn't want to see a slaughter. It didn't work.

Time to move on...there has been enough Mages vs Templar bashing.

Modifié par john-in-france, 11 août 2011 - 05:10 .

[berelinde]

By all that is holy, can we give the graphic, emotion-provoking comparisons to 9/11 a rest? Not because Thedas is not North America. Not because some people favor one character or faction versus another. Stop because this comparison cheapens the memory of the tragedy that cost the lives of 2551 civilians, 343 firefighters and paramedics, and 60 law enforcement officers. The two are not the same. The two can never be the same. Let's show some respect.

[rak72]

What cheapens the memory of those people is thinking an action that you can draw parallels to is cool, righteous, and is a few innocent bystanders get hut in the process, no big deal.

Leggy willow - if you see his act for what it is, and don't think all he was lacking was the proper publicist, then I'm not referring to you.

Tidra - Yes, I'm obviously unintelligent and must look up the word asinine because your trolling of the Sebastian thread didn't cause me to change my opinion of him. I bow to your superior mental acumen.

[berelinde]

rak72 wrote...

What cheapens the memory of those people is thinking an action that you can draw parallels to is cool, righteous, and is a few innocent bystanders get hut in the process, no big deal.

It is also a game. Very important fact.

[Sinaxi]

rak72 wrote...

What cheapens the memory of those people is thinking an action that you can draw parallels to is cool, righteous, and is a few innocent bystanders get hut in the process, no big deal.

Leggy willow - if you see his act for what it is, and don't think all he was lacking was the proper publicist, then I'm not referring to you.

Tidra - Yes, I'm obviously unintelligent and must look up the word asinine because your trolling of the Sebastian thread didn't cause me to change my opinion of him. I bow to your superior mental acumen.

Lol? I trolled the Sebastian thread? You think "character analysis" is *TROLLING* now? Well, ****. I also posted like, 1 thing in there I believe and it wasn't in an attempt to change your damn opinion..it was once, again, character. analysis.

Also. You are the *only* one drawing parallels to 9/11 so the only person in bad taste is you.