386 réponses à ce sujet

[john-in-france]

That doesn't change our moral viewpoint. In fact the chant is very specific:

Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him.
Foul and corrupt are they
Who have taken His gift
And turned it against His children.
They shall be named Maleficar, accursed ones.
They shall find no rest in this world
Or beyond.

All men are the Work of our Maker's Hands,
From the lowest slaves
To the highest kings.
Those who bring harm
Without provocation to the least of His children
Are hated and accursed by the Maker.

So:
You play Mages, that's ok.
We play Templar or Mage ending for different reasons, and we kill Anders.

THIS thread is about Elthina. Not Sebastian bashing. I note that it seems ok to say that Elthina is bad, but you jump on anyone who states the opposite opinion.

[rak72]

I didn't say that drawing parallels is in bad taste, I said the glorifying of the actions was in bad taste. You're intelligence is vastly superior, but you need to work on your reading comprehension skills.

[Sinaxi]

rak72 wrote...

What cheapens the memory of those people is thinking an action that you can draw parallels to is cool, righteous, and is a few innocent bystanders get hut in the process, no big deal.

Considering I was responding directly to this post, where you are talking about parallels I don't need my reading comprehension checked when I am commenting on one specific aspect of your post. But, again...good try.

Also, since you want to throw the word "trolling" around - I would love to know what all that BS about Anders fans "squeeing" and "not being able to let go of Awakening Anders" was. Was that just you being "nice"? Yeah. Didn't think so.

[syllogi]

Whether it's 9/11, any other recent terrorist act, or historical revolutions...none of them are going to be good comparisons to what is happening in Thedas. Mages will ALWAYS need supervision and rigorous training, whether by the Chantry or another group, as long as demons are around to possess them, and children who are untaught can hurt or kill others unintentionally. That has nothing to do with the real world.

When it comes to the Big Picture, Order needs to be preserved, or restored. Mages cannot run around unchecked. The Circles have worked for a thousand years, and while they obviously need reform, they had to work at some point. So Elthina's inaction might have actually been a hope that things weren't as bad as they seemed, or that a peaceful solution could be reached. It's entirely possible that Meredith was lying to her, or that she wanted to work behind the scenes to remove her from power quietly. Or, she was just incompetent. Whatever it was, she didn't deserve to be murdered, and neither did the innocents who were collateral damage in the Chantry bombing.

I really do wish Hawke had more agency in this story. Hawke had at least three years as Champion of Kirkwall in which to use his/her influence to appoint a new Viscount, or appeal to the Divine, or even try to find a way to separate Justice from Anders. Instead, Hawke just hung out and played cards at the Hanged Man. It's frustrating, and it makes me feel more detached, instead of more connected to events.

[Sinaxi]

rak72 wrote...
 You're intelligence is vastly superior, but you need to work on your reading comprehension skills.

Well at least I know how to use the word "you're" does that make my reading comprehension better?

[cmessaz]

Wow...getting a bit nasty in here? O_o Personal insults on BSN...never saw that coming.

Right so seriously sometimes people in glass houses shouldn't throw rocks...that is all I have to say.

[rak72]

Tidra wrote...

rak72 wrote...

What cheapens the memory of those people thinking an action that you can draw parallels to is cool, righteous, and is a few innocent bystanders get hut in the process, no big deal.

Considering I was responding directly to this post, where you are talking about parallels I don't need my reading comprehension checked when I am commenting on one specific aspect of your post. But, again...good try.

Also, since you want to throw the word "trolling" around - I would love to know what all that BS about Anders fans "squeeing" and "not being able to let go of Awakening Anders" was. Was that just you being "nice"? Yeah. Didn't think so.

It clearly states that  the cool & righteousness  is what cheapens it, not the drawing parallels.

But My question about DAA vs DA2 Anders was legitimate and not an attempt at trolling.  If they brought Alistair into DA2 and changed him as radically as the did Anders, my heart would be broken.  I  might even try to justify some of his actions to myself.  Now if you never met DAA Anders and fell in love with the new one, that is lovely.  But I still wonder if he would have such a loyal following is people didn't know DAA Anders.  Because, honestly, (almost) whenever Anders had something to say about anything, it is mean and spiteful.

Modifié par rak72, 11 août 2011 - 05:40 .

[rak72]

Tidra wrote...

rak72 wrote...
 You're intelligence is vastly superior, but you need to work on your reading comprehension skills.

Well at least I know how to use the word "you're" does that make my reading comprehension better?

You ARE (your're!!  ok got it now) right, it's compleatly my fault you misread my post.  My full apologies.

[john-in-france]

STOP THAT!

Good grief what age are you? Typos are easy to make, it doesn't change opinions. Now, step back take a deep breath, and remember...Elthina.

Rak 72: Remember that death is never justice...you can't kill her.
Tidra: Stop throwing fireballs!

[rak72]

john-in-france wrote...

STOP THAT!

Good grief what age are you? Typos are easy to make, it doesn't change opinions. Now, step back take a deep breath, and remember...Elthina.

Rak 72: Remember that death is never justice...you can't kill her.
Tidra: Stop throwing fireballs!

You are right Jif, I will respect the good mother's memory.

[Sinaxi]

rak72 wrote...

Tidra wrote...

rak72 wrote...
 You're intelligence is vastly superior, but you need to work on your reading comprehension skills.

Well at least I know how to use the word "you're" does that make my reading comprehension better?

You ARE (your're!!  ok got it now) right, it's compleatly my fault you misread my post.  My full apologies.

The point was that you used the word "You're" *You are* incorrectly in your sentence. Not that I don't know that you're means you are. It should have been your. I mean hey, if you wanted to talk about my reading comprehension I felt it was appropriate to point out that I was comprehending enough to notice that. Get my drift?

[Ryzaki]

TeenZombie wrote...

Whether it's 9/11, any other recent terrorist act, or historical revolutions...none of them are going to be good comparisons to what is happening in Thedas. Mages will ALWAYS need supervision and rigorous training, whether by the Chantry or another group, as long as demons are around to possess them, and children who are untaught can hurt or kill others unintentionally. That has nothing to do with the real world.

When it comes to the Big Picture, Order needs to be preserved, or restored. Mages cannot run around unchecked. The Circles have worked for a thousand years, and while they obviously need reform, they had to work at some point. So Elthina's inaction might have actually been a hope that things weren't as bad as they seemed, or that a peaceful solution could be reached. It's entirely possible that Meredith was lying to her, or that she wanted to work behind the scenes to remove her from power quietly. Or, she was just incompetent. Whatever it was, she didn't deserve to be murdered, and neither did the innocents who were collateral damage in the Chantry bombing.

I really do wish Hawke had more agency in this story. Hawke had at least three years as Champion of Kirkwall in which to use his/her influence to appoint a new Viscount, or appeal to the Divine, or even try to find a way to separate Justice from Anders. Instead, Hawke just hung out and played cards at the Hanged Man. It's frustrating, and it makes me feel more detached, instead of more connected to events.

Agreed with everything and Hawke's sitting on his/her hands is just bleh.

[leggywillow]

john-in-france wrote...
An honorable man or woman strives to remain true to some ideals even in war, and the harming of innocents is not one of them. It is called moral values or used to be.

Out of curiosity, you do know about moral relativism, right?  There's no such thing as "moral values" that span all cultures and time periods.  Almost every culture I can think of is against harming innocents, but the definition of who is innocent can vary wildly.

In my definition, and probably the definition of most people raised in a Western society, yes, Anders killed innocent people.  But just because I see it that way, and apparently so do you, that doesn't actually make it universally morally wrong due to that pesky thing called "relativism".  Just something to keep in mind.

A good fictional example would be the turians.  They are all about honor, but they also harm a ton of what we would call innocents in battle, since they don't view non-combatants as "innocents".  Does that make them evil?

History is nothing but shades of grey, some shades darker than others.

Modifié par leggywillow, 11 août 2011 - 06:12 .

[cmessaz]

People who have to make comments on people's status updates about how gross it is to romance Anders then turn around and accuse others of trolling do bother me a bit. Just saying. No offense intended but to say other people troll and get on them when one does themselves a bit is a bit...funny to me.

[rak72]

Tidra wrote...

rak72 wrote...

Tidra wrote...

rak72 wrote...
 You're intelligence is vastly superior, but you need to work on your reading comprehension skills.

Well at least I know how to use the word "you're" does that make my reading comprehension better?

You ARE (your're!!  ok got it now) right, it's compleatly my fault you misread my post.  My full apologies.

The point was that you used the word "You're" *You are* incorrectly in your sentence. Not that I don't know that you're means you are. It should have been your. I mean hey, if you wanted to talk about my reading comprehension I felt it was appropriate to point out that I was comprehending enough to notice that. Get my drift?

I do get your (see I used it right there!!)  drift.  I'm sorry if my last post was also not clear  and it sounded like I was trying to justify my incorrect use of the word "you're"  in the 1st instance.  Again, you are vastly more intelligent than I am, and I feel asinine (I learned a new word today, I want to use it as much as possable in a sentance so I don't forget it)  for writing "You're"  instead of "your".

Modifié par rak72, 12 août 2011 - 04:53 .

[Chignon]

Ryzaki wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...

Whether it's 9/11, any other recent terrorist act, or historical revolutions...none of them are going to be good comparisons to what is happening in Thedas. Mages will ALWAYS need supervision and rigorous training, whether by the Chantry or another group, as long as demons are around to possess them, and children who are untaught can hurt or kill others unintentionally. That has nothing to do with the real world.

When it comes to the Big Picture, Order needs to be preserved, or restored. Mages cannot run around unchecked. The Circles have worked for a thousand years, and while they obviously need reform, they had to work at some point. So Elthina's inaction might have actually been a hope that things weren't as bad as they seemed, or that a peaceful solution could be reached. It's entirely possible that Meredith was lying to her, or that she wanted to work behind the scenes to remove her from power quietly. Or, she was just incompetent. Whatever it was, she didn't deserve to be murdered, and neither did the innocents who were collateral damage in the Chantry bombing.

I really do wish Hawke had more agency in this story. Hawke had at least three years as Champion of Kirkwall in which to use his/her influence to appoint a new Viscount, or appeal to the Divine, or even try to find a way to separate Justice from Anders. Instead, Hawke just hung out and played cards at the Hanged Man. It's frustrating, and it makes me feel more detached, instead of more connected to events.

Agreed with everything and Hawke's sitting on his/her hands is just bleh.

I agree with you both.

[ipgd]

rak72 wrote...

It clearly states that  the cool & righteousness  is what cheapens it, not the drawing parallels.

But My question about DAA vs DA2 Anders was legitimate and not an attempt at trolling.  If they brought Alistair into DA2 and changed him as radically as the did Anders, my heart would be broken.  I  might even try to justify some of his actions to myself.  Now if you never met DAA Anders and fell in love with the new one, that is lovely.  But I still wonder if he would have such a loyal following is people didn't know DAA Anders.  Because, honestly, (almost) whenever Anders had something to say about anything, it is mean and spiteful.

You have a fundamental misunderstanding as to why Anders is appealing to Anders fans. It's not because of his winning personality, guy.

We all recognize that he did something awful and that he's kind of a dick, but we like him because he is an interesting character with an interesting narrative role and liking him as a character does not require we think him a perfect flawless human being. There's a difference between being a good character and a good person and the former is not in any way dependant on the latter. You do not have to actually personally want to know or be friends with or have a relationship with a character in real life to be able to appreciate them as a character. The entire appeal is that he is a tragic figure; we like him for what he is, including the ****ty parts. We like his ****ty parts (edit: ... just realized I should probably rephrase this, but I'm not going to), we don't ignore them or try to erase them.

Nobody here is trying to excuse him or "pretty up" what Anders did. His attack on the Chantry was an act of terrorism, full stop. He is a terrorist, full stop (and I've argued countless times that calling it anything less is a disservice to his character and the narrative). But not all terrorists are evil and not all terrorists are completely equivalent to the 9/11 attackers and 9/11 was not the only instance of terrorism in the history of the world, and I would argue this regardless of whether I liked Anderps or not. Because it is true. And the willful ignorance and hysteria surrounding terrorism particular to America frustrates the hell out of me -- your kneejerk emotional reactions do not somehow rewrite history just because you are uncomfortable with terrorism or have no idea what terrorism actually is.

Modifié par ipgd, 11 août 2011 - 06:22 .

[congealeddgtllvr]

TeenZombie wrote...

 or even try to find a way to separate Justice from Anders.

I would have been happier with the ability to just cut his head off before the third act but your way would have worked too, I guess.  

[Lozark]

I'm just going to pop in for a quick two cents since I'm a terrible debater, buuut...

TeenZombie, I think you summed it up pretty well. Mages are very dangerous people in DA, and they need some kind of safeguard. Cruel as it may be, making a mage tranquil was an effective "keep out" sign to any demons or spirits that might have wanted to hitch a ride, but, at least in the Fereldan Circle, I think it was only done to mages who hadn't gone through their Harrowing yet. Once a mage has proven that they can resist possession, the Templars were supposed to look into corrective action (or death in the case of mages that were hurting others) as a solution. One of the most heinous things I think Meredith does is allow making mages Tranquil after their Harrowing. That, I'm pretty sure, is severely overstepping her bounds and Elthina does nothing about it. For all she talks about feeling for the mages, Elthina really doesn't or she'd at least clamp down on the open abuses Meredith does, even if not the more legal cruelties, like confining mages to their quarters.

I recall Cullen's opinion of the situation, that Elthina is basically leading the mages on. I think he probably has the right of it there. Maybe Elthina intentionally did so, figuring that the mages would be quiet and less likely to rebel for as long as they thought they had a chance of working within the system. Which makes what Anders says true, removing Elthina is removing the chance of compromise. It forces the mages to stand up for themselves, if only to fight for their lives rather than their freedoms, at least to start.

[Addai]

klarabella wrote...
I never understood why on earth Alistair is suddenly eerily close to pro-mage revolutionary. it's not like anything special happened to make him change his mind entirely. In Origins he was very willing to gleefully kill a blood mage and even suggested that abomination Connor should be killed in the first place. And of course hated Morrigan, in part for her being an apostate.

I'm scratching my head- where is this?

And we all know how Alistair actually reacts to killing Connor.

I don't see any incongruity in his DA2 characterization.  Alistair realized he didn't want to be a templar when he witnessed a Harrowing where the mage became an abomination and was killed- where the Circle system was working as it was intended.  He was so rattled by what he saw that he was desperate to get out and thought darkspawn taint a good trade-off (like Fiona).  That sounds like a guy who can sympathize with the plight of mages, while generally holding to Andrastian faith.

Modifié par Addai67, 11 août 2011 - 06:43 .

[Captain_Obvious]

Elthina let things get out of hand. You can have several conversations with her through the course of the game regarding Alrik and others, and she gives nothing but vacuous opinions on how everyone should play nice. If she's the revered mother, she needs to act like one.

[Addai]

ipgd wrote...
 And the willful ignorance and hysteria surrounding terrorism particular to America frustrates the hell out of me -- your kneejerk emotional reactions do not somehow rewrite history just because you are uncomfortable with terrorism or have no idea what terrorism actually is.

That's quite patronizing.  I'm a history nerd so I read about atrocities that make 9/11 pale.  It doesn't mean I wasn't gutted to the core to read about the woman who was doused by burning jet fuel while waiting for the bus to go to work, and spent a month in agony I can't even imagine, finally dying as the last victim.  I'm just as appalled when others suffer, though I actually lived and went to work myself in those same streets, and I think I'm entitled to be moved by someone who could have been me.

As to Anders- you don't have to be a "hysterical American" to find his actions appalling, either.  Elthina was criminally incompetent and probably could have done with a spot of arsenic in her tea.  Also, the Circle system needs to change.  However, I don't believe it's justified to force societal change at the end of a blasting fuse.  Crazy, I know.

[Melca36]

klarabella wrote...


According to the lore they don't have any support. The society fears mages.

To assume everybody is going to be against mages is wrong.

The war is NOT going to be Templar VS MAGE.

The Mages will have support from the people they heal and whatnot. The Chantry  will have the support from the Templars that did not break with them

The Mages will also likely be fighting Bloodmages.

To assume everything is purely black and white is just wrong.

Not all mages are bad. Why assume that?

People should just like the characters they like and just leave at that. I don't like Sebastian but I can guarantee you wont see me in any of his threads because I don't believe in infringing on people's enjoyment.

I don't like Elthina nor do I hate her....  To me she symbolizes everything that is WRONG with established religion today which makes her socially relevant.

[john-in-france]

leggywillow wrote...

john-in-france wrote...
An honorable man or woman strives to remain true to some ideals even in war, and the harming of innocents is not one of them. It is called moral values or used to be.

Out of curiosity, you do know about moral relativism, right?  There's no such thing as "moral values" that span all cultures and time periods.  Almost every culture I can think of is against harming innocents, but the definition of who is innocent can vary wildly.

In my definition, and probably the definition of most people raised in a Western society, yes, Anders killed innocent people.  But just because I see it that way, and apparently so do you, that doesn't actually make it universally morally wrong due to that pesky thing called "relativism".  Just something to keep in mind.

A good fictional example would be the turians.  They are all about honor, but they also harm a ton of what we would call innocents in battle, since they don't view non-combatants as "innocents".  Does that make them evil?

History is nothing but shades of grey, some shades darker than others.

Make up your minds folks, are we debating Thedas in which case read the Chant quote posted, or Mass Effect (not relevent here) or real life (relevent to RPG choice in Thedas)?

I believe that I already said that History was ambiguous.

Moral values depend on the time/place and religion/spiritual system that you live/believe in. It does not stop people from trying to be a better person by protecting the innocent.
Philosophy is nice, but like history rarely tells it how it really happens, it is far too clinical.

War is violent, bloody, and often ends up with parts of your friends splashed all over you. There are no magic healing potions, but there is friendly fire. There is rape, slaughter and lack of humanity. That makes it more necessary for people to take a stand for honorable reasons...because in war, many things become grey. There is no real glory, regardless of television broadcasts or fiction. I have seen war, and terrorism close up and it is not clean.

So in Thedas you recommend that people who would normally put a Browning in the groin of a man intent on raping a child is wrong? My wife stopped a group of  3  Airmen that way when they were intent on the rape of a child of 13. So tell me now, exactly how stopping Alrik is wrong....How is being honorable wrong? I personally love the fact that my wife had the balls to do it in real life, her and the other doctor with her.

Honor isn't just stopping atrocities against mages, it is about stopping atrocities full stop. Churches and Hospitals are generally considered off limits by the (honorable members of the) military, though not by politicians when it suits them. If a soldier hits one of these targets it is a war crime, if a guerilla fighter hits one it is terrorism.

Stop being a politician.

A few good men...and women, can make a difference. Even in a game.

Modifié par john-in-france, 11 août 2011 - 07:01 .

[esper]

john-in-france wrote...

leggywillow wrote...

john-in-france wrote...
An honorable man or woman strives to remain true to some ideals even in war, and the harming of innocents is not one of them. It is called moral values or used to be.

Out of curiosity, you do know about moral relativism, right?  There's no such thing as "moral values" that span all cultures and time periods.  Almost every culture I can think of is against harming innocents, but the definition of who is innocent can vary wildly.

In my definition, and probably the definition of most people raised in a Western society, yes, Anders killed innocent people.  But just because I see it that way, and apparently so do you, that doesn't actually make it universally morally wrong due to that pesky thing called "relativism".  Just something to keep in mind.

A good fictional example would be the turians.  They are all about honor, but they also harm a ton of what we would call innocents in battle, since they don't view non-combatants as "innocents".  Does that make them evil?

History is nothing but shades of grey, some shades darker than others.

Make up your minds folks, are we debating Thedas in which case read the Chant quote posted, or Mass Effect (not relevent here) or real life (relevent to RPG choice in Thedas)?

I believe that I already said that History was ambiguous.

Moral values depend on the time/place and religion/spiritual system that you live/believe in. It does not stop people from trying to be a better person by protecting the innocent.
Philosophy is nice, but like history rarely tells it how it really happens, it is far too clinical.

War is violent, bloody, and often ends up with parts of your friends splashed all over you. There are no magic healing potions, but there is friendly fire. There is rape, slaughter and lack of humanity. That makes it more necessary for people to take a stand for honorable reasons...because in war, many things become grey. There is no real glory, regardless of television broadcasts or fiction. I have seen war, and terrorism close up and it is not clean.

So in Thedas you recommend that people who would normally put a Browning in the groin of a man intent on raping a child is wrong? My wife stopped a group of  3  Airmen that way when they were intent on the rape of a child of 13. So tell me now, exactly how stopping Alrik is wrong....How is being honorable wrong? I personally love the fact that my wife had the balls to do it in real life, her and the other doctor with her.

Honor isn't just stopping atrocities against mages, it is about stopping atrocities full stop. Churches and Hospitals are generally considered off limits by the (honorable members of the) military, though not by politicians when it suits them. If a soldier hits one of these targets it is a war crime, if a guerilla fighter hits one it is terrorism.

Stop being a politician.

A few good men...and women, can make a difference. Even in a game.

Just one little problem with you real life parallel there. The Chantry IS the Military.