28 réponses à ce sujet

[London]

For those who kept Anders alive, how much longer would you believe he'd keep control over Justice?

I know by the end of Act III he frequently lost control over Justice and his character arc showed him slowly losing control; did anyone who Romanced him really think there would be a happily ever after there?  Do you think escaping and being with Hawke would have let him keep things together as he got to watch all the Circles rise up?  Or do you think he'd get worse with more difficult battles ahead?

I'm curious if regardless of your actions, if Anders is a lost cause anyway in the grand scheme of events?

I guess we'll see in DA3 (maybe).  Is there any lore on just how long someone can keep a spirit with them?  Wynne's spirit seemed a lot less...present than Anders, which seems like more of a possession.

[Tyrium]

Ooh, interesting. If you go friendship path, he doesn't have the blackouts, or Justice taking over like that, so I think that would help. I like to think he and my Hawke could be happy, but who knows? I think achieving the goal would help too ...

[London]

Hmm, this would be a good point. But when Hawke vanishes along with the Grey Warden - what might become of Anders then? He might have more of a support network if you join up with other Revolutionists, but does Hawke just vanish without a trace? Would Anders feel lost/betrayed/uprooted by losing Hawke if they were together? Would he be able to keep control of himself until Hawke returns (if ever)?

(I really hope this series doesn't end with our Warden/Hawke vanishing forever and leaving their LI's stranded and alone =( )

[Sinaxi]

You can't disregard people's actions in terms of Anders character. He is two completely different people on friendship or rivalry. As far as rivalry, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't last long at all since he is basically a shell of the person he even used to be. That, and him and Justice have pretty much split entirely already.

Friendship is different, he pretty much merges with Justice and doesn't lose control as much. Rivalry path he suffers from blackouts because he can't even remember anymore when Justice manifests. Sigh, I hate to like..rewrite a ton of stuff I basically already talked about earlier today...so I am going to be lazy and grab posts from earlier that directly relate to this and mash them together in an order that will make sense. This is going to be long.....lol...Edit - nvm, looked much longer in the quick reply box haha.

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Depending on whether you kill him or not is player choice, but imo if he stays alive on friendship path he is not this "broken" man...definitely not anything like the one he is on rivalry. I know his story and his life will always be tragic so in a way you could say he is broken no matter what...but just based on where he is at the end of the game friendship/mage siding he is not falling further into the abyss. He is sad about what he did, and admits that he probably does deserve to die in order to give those people justice...but when you offer to keep him alive and let him fight Templars he is 100% ready to do this. He is still determined.

I do not see Friendship Anders just going off the rails and killing himself after the events in Kirkwall when he still has a mission. (I mention this because I know it is implied at the end of his rivalry story he may commit suicide...not certain if this is dependent upon siding with Templars or Mages) He started this in Kirkwall, and he is not the kind of person to just wait around and watch it end...he would want to be involved somehow.

In my opinion, the times we really see Justice come forth is when Anders starts to lose his cool or starts feeling threatened in some way. This feeling is only compounded by whatever Justice is feeling, and it leads to him manifesting because he thinks he needs to take control. That is the way I have always personally interpreted it...at least on friendship path. IMO, in theory, a friendship Hawke would help Anders learn to control Justice, mostly to control his own emotions and support him in that way which is why he is much better off in his mental health Friendship-wise come the end of the game. Rivalry, to me, is more like "RAH! You are in ZERO control!" and gives no real help to solve Anders problem, instead just complains about the problem. This does nothing. He cannot under any circumstances that we currently know about, separate himself from Justice. So constantly talking at him is in absolutely no way beneficial to Anders.

Anders is driven. This is not in any way sad to me. His story is sad, yes, but his goal is not. His determination is not sad. On friendship I believe that he grows darker not because of anything having to do with Justice, (since they only truly separate on Rivalry) but because by the time Act 3 rolls around he is realizing what it is he is about to do. He tries to distance himself from the people around him, including a romanced Hawke. He has no time for games now, because he knows what is coming. Varric tries to joke with him, and he is just like "Not now." At that point he is 100% "I know what I must do".

I mean, he has lived with Justice for...in simply DA2 game time, like 10 years if you keep him alive in Last Straw. In Last Straw he pretty much has accepted what he is. His lines clearly indicate that to me..I would transcribe them here but I assume most people remember what he says. After Last Straw, I'd say he is still the same determined person. He is not losing himself to Justice. He is "Justice". He is Anders, and he is Justice. It is one person. He has pretty much accepted what he is, and by that I mean he understands he can't change this - he has to learn to live with Justice and hope to control his situation better. He can't separate himself from Justice....therefore he technically is "Janders" as many people like to call him.

So back to your main question - I don't see him falling deeper into some pit of darkness or going totally nuts as far as Justice is concerned on friendship path being kept alive (and assuming you sided with Mages). A day may come where he has to pay for what he did but that day isn't here yet. Mages aren't free, not yet. Therefore his job is not done. Sooo..if I was any judge based on his personality and his character it would make sense for him to be important in the grand scheme of things if he were still alive. But many people probably killed him off so he might not really be in DA3 that much...I have no idea. On a whole, he may never return to being the "person" he used to be...but he knows that. I do not consider him a lost cause, especially not while he still has a cause if he's alive. And especially if a romanced Hawke is by his side, I think he would be in good hands because Hawke was at least somewhat a voice of reason for him when he felt he was going to lose control. He made many comments related to this saying they were the only reason he had retained any sanity over the years. The problem with this is...there is SO much from DA2 we don't get to see due to these ridiculously huge year gaps. I could easily see Hawke talking to Anders about his problems within these time frames but of course we don't see it, and we don't get the opportunity to do it in game. But regardless, I still think his overall mental health is much better on a friendship path and there's really no way he wouldn't go completely nuts on rivalry path (since he is basically already at his lowest point at the end of the rivalry arc)

Modifié par Tidra, 09 août 2011 - 05:41 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I've written extensively on this before, but I think it depends on a lot of things.

The biggest issue is that neither friend or rival Hawke, romanced or unromanced, actually does anything that I consider helpful. They don't talk about his anger issues, they don't talk about what Justice was like before the merger, they don't try to figure out exactly where the confusion with Ella came from and how to prevent it in the future. It's either "shine on you crazy diamond" or "oh my god you are a horrible monster!"

I think there are a bunch of things someone could do to help Anders, the question is... is Hawke the person to do it? If not Hawke, who? I generally have the feeling that consulting with someone from Awakening who knew both parties pre-merger would be very helpful in sorting things out. I think going to Rivain where spirit possession is practically a hobby might provide some insight. I think reaching out to Justice (or the part of Anders that he now thinks of as Justice, if they really are fully merged) and letting him know that he is 'taking rather than giving' would help. There are a bunch of things Justice says in Awakening that could be brought up again to give him new perspective.

Now, I define "helping" as "helping Anders have some semblance of an identity outside the cause of mages." No matter what, you're going to have to continue helping him work for his cause. If that's all he does, he'll become more and more simply an embodiment of a cause and less a person. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it's not the result I'm interested in. I want to see the whole end up at least equal to the sum of its parts, rather than less. I want a functional human and a happy spirit, wrapped around a core of nougat. Left alone, the man is being consumed by the myth and the legend.

I don't think that just loving him and staying with him will help Anders. That's kind of the point of his arc... Hawke does nothing productive but care and stay with him, and that doesn't actually seem to do much to improve his mental stability. You need to do therapy, and magical science here, rather than just hugs. Hugs are nice, but they don't fix crazy. Headology fixes crazy. Treatment fixes crazy. If you want Anders to get better, you're going to have to find some pro-active way to work with him on his issues.

Edit: also, if you make Anders side with the Templars, I think he is done (unless someone other than Hawke swoops in and gets him away from Hawke before he actually manages to off himself). The person he loves most in the world has made him do something completely anathema to his being... I can't see him recovering from that. I can see him recovering from a rival playthrough if you side with the mages, yes, but siding with the templars? No.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 09 août 2011 - 05:46 .

[esper]

SebastianDA wrote...

Hmm, this would be a good point. But when Hawke vanishes along with the Grey Warden - what might become of Anders then? He might have more of a support network if you join up with other Revolutionists, but does Hawke just vanish without a trace? Would Anders feel lost/betrayed/uprooted by losing Hawke if they were together? Would he be able to keep control of himself until Hawke returns (if ever)?

(I really hope this series doesn't end with our Warden/Hawke vanishing forever and leaving their LI's stranded and alone =( )

Who says that Anders doesn't vanish with Hawke? There is the expect Li phrase, I also think it is hinted that the wardens Li is gone in awakening, but bioware really needs to stop doing their vanishing hero act.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

In my mind Anders, Hawke, my Warden, and Zevran have all run off somewhere to be the Thedan equivalent of the A-Team. I feel bad for poor Alistair who has to stay behind and be king.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 09 août 2011 - 06:14 .

[Sinaxi]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
Now, I define "helping" as "helping Anders have some semblance of an identity outside the cause of mages." No matter what, you're going to have to continue helping him work for his cause. If that's all he does, he'll become more and more simply an embodiment of a cause and less a person. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it's not the result I'm interested in. I want to see the whole end up at least equal to the sum of its parts, rather than less. I want a functional human and a happy spirit, wrapped around a core of nougat. Left alone, the man is being consumed by the myth and the legend.

Must...not...quote a great V for Vendetta quote. I think I've seen some people get pissed about that before on these forums. I'm not in any way trying to compare Anders to V but this quote by Evey is stuck in my head now.

"We are told to remember the idea, not the man, because a man can fail. He can be caught, he can be killed and forgotten, but 400 years later, an idea can still change the world. I've witnessed first hand the power of ideas, I've seen people kill in the name of them, and die defending them... but you cannot kiss an idea, cannot touch it, or hold it... ideas do not bleed, they do not feel pain, they do not love... And it is not an idea that I miss, it is a man."

This specific quote (taken totally out of context of the movie) is in a way very relatable to the way I personally view Anders situation. (especially for a romanced Hawke) It is who he is written to be - that myth that legend that you are referring to. I will quote Hepler now:

"People tend to think of being devoted to a cause as a noble and heroic thing, but it's actually pretty frightening if you think about what it means to have an abstract ideal which means more to someone than their own or anyone else's life."

I do somewhat believe that an unromanced Anders is simply his cause. Hawke sees him as a person though, a man that she loves. Without Hawke, towards the end of the game, I don't think Anders would see much more beyond his cause. Hawke is almost an anchor, making him remember that there is more to his life than just his cause. It makes him want to hold onto something else. I, like you, want the story to come full circle and Anders to not have to worry about this cause anymore and be a person again. I know we don't want him to lose himself, but in the grand scheme of what he is fighting for...I do question whether or not that will be possible. (I don't mean lose himself to Justice, but lose himself to just simply becoming the very embodiment of that cause/idea) It certainly won't be something I would even consider until Mages are free.

V for Vendetta was a good movie...and I also think Hugo Weaving is a tremendous actor. I honestly just wanted an excuse to use that quote really. So... I'm done now. Haha.

Modifié par Tidra, 09 août 2011 - 06:37 .

[esper]

The problem is even if both being mages I really doubt that my warden and my Hawke could work together. But they both have reason to hide from seekers so that was happened in my head canon. Cassandra and co. can't find them because they don't want to be found, but yes... poor Alistar, and lucky Morrigan, it is garanteet that she vanish along with Li thanks to witch hunt.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Tidra wrote...
I do somewhat believe that an unromanced Anders is simply his cause. Hawke sees him as a person though, a man that she loves. Without Hawke, towards the end of the game, I don't think Anders would see much more beyond his cause. Hawke is almost an anchor, making him remember that there is more to his life than just his cause. It makes him want to hold onto something else. I, like you, want the story to come full circle and Anders to not have to worry about this cause anymore and be a person again. I know we don't want him to lose himself, but in the grand scheme of what he is fighting for...I do question whether or not that will be possible. (I don't mean lose himself to Justice, but lose himself to just simply becoming the very embodiment of that cause/idea) It certainly won't be something I would even consider until Mages are free.

I want to clarify: I don't want Anders to not have to worry about his cause, and I don't think it's practical to expect Thedas to get to the point where he can let it go. I just want him to get to the point where he can occasionally take a short vacation. I want him to get to the point where he's not actively harming himself in pursuit of his cause. You can be devoted to a cause and still be a happy, functional person.

My Warden is a lot like Anders, only she's all about the cause of elves rather than the cause of mages (though eventually she just generalizes it to "human society sucks, nobody is happy in your stupid messed up world, we really need to tear it to the ground and start over." But the idea is the same, and elves are her first priority.)

The thing is, my Wardenl gave up some pretty serious things for her cause, most notably Alistair (putting someone on the throne who will stick up for the little guy is more important than her individual happiness, etc.), but she still has an identity outside of it. She also thinks that the calling is a huge waste, so she hopes to die gloriously doing something heroic and productive before that happens; she's going to live the next twenty years like someone who isn't afraid to die. At the same time, she's saneish, and she enjoys the simple pleasures of life when she gets a chance. That's the kind of future I want for Anders: one where he can work toward his cause, but also be a person in his spare time.

I think there can be a balance where you say "I've only got a certain amount of life left, and I'm going to use it to fix the world as much as I can before I go," but also live what little life you have left. I'm not sure if I'm putting this properly, but you get the general idea.

[Reznore57]

I don't think Anders gonna live a happy life.Even if he accept Justice as part of him , the spirit isn't meant to live in the mortal world.
Besides if you let him live , he's gonna see the aftermath of what he calls "Justice".I'm not so sure he will be able to deal with it.I mean what do you think happen when a powerful group of people gets free from oppression? No more circle also means no more training for mages etc...

I guess he could become a kind of sheperd for mages, but if he goes with the fighting he might go totally insane.

Modifié par Reznore57, 09 août 2011 - 07:11 .

[berelinde]

Am I a bad person for thinking "Anders? Sane? When did this happen?"

Seriously, though, he's in for a rough time of it, one way or another. As a rival, it will actually be easier for him because he'll be dead. As a friend, if he survives, he'll have to live in the world he helped create. And he's still a Grey Warden.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Justice was doing a pretty good job of adjusting to the mortal world by the end of Awakening. The question is why did he stop, why did he regress?

The whole "circle vs. no training for mages" argument is an old one... Morrigan and Wynne literally have it in their Origins banter. It's an interesting question, but I think the answer is "Both of those things are a bad idea! What is wrong with you?"

What do I think happens when a powerful group is freed from oppression? Well it depends a lot on the group. It's not something that is inherently historically doomed. That said, I think the ideal solution is one where mages and mundanes work together to monitor and assist mages. There are a lot of viable solutions that aren't just "let untrained mages run amok." The Dalish system seems to be that young mages are simply apprenticed to older mages, and continue to live as a part of the community. You could try something like that, for instance. Or just fix the tower system so that mages and templars have equal amounts of power, and there's some outside, neutral faction who can moderate disputes. There are good solutions here, we're just never allowed to work toward any of them.

[Reznore57]

Well justice merge in a dead body with human feeling that were just memories.To merge with somebody alive and really taste emotion , both anders and justice were unprepared for what was coming.

On the mages question , the mages need some training and guidance .The circle as bas as it is provided something.Of course there are some other solution but everything need time to take place.
Mages are not all friends in a circle , and they were all together because they have no choice.Still not all mages want the same thing , some want to live in peace , some wants another imperium etc..I think that why Cassandra seek for Hawke ,what happened turned into a mess.

Anders kinda free the mages ,now if he keeps on his freedom stuff and forget about the rest ,i think he's gonna totally loose himself to justice.

[Knight of Dane]

Friendship: Anders gives in to Justice.

Rivalry: Anders Looses to Justice.

Either way is a loss for him.. :/

[nitefyre410]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Justice was doing a pretty good job of adjusting to the mortal world by the end of Awakening. The question is why did he stop, why did he regress?

  

And that right there is 65 million  question.    I think  it has to more with how Anders approachs Justice - instead of  accepting Justice as aspect of himself.   He is trying fight Justice as   foreign enity but that is like fighting you own shadow you are never going to win.

[Gervaise]

Anders/Justice is very single minded and only sees his point of view. There is no room for compromise. So everything will be fine so long as whoever is with him shares his point of view. He avows freedom for mages but objects to blood mages - he lays into Merrill far more viciously at times than Fenris. Isabella made a point to him that Justice is an abstract idea because inevitably if you obtain justice for one set of people, it is likely to be at the expense of justice for another set. Anders is all about Justice for mages but doesn't seem to have got beyond the free all mages part. At the end of Act 3 he is condoning some blood mages on the grounds they are desperate and yet condemning another because he feels she isn't. There seems no recognition that some sort of regulation may be necessary and if so, who is to judge what is allowable and who is to enforce it?
I got to the end in full friendship as a result of actions in Act 1 and early Act 2, even though I was modifying my views during the rest of the game. So he was thanking me for still supporting him when I wasn't still supporting him. I was supporting the mages he had just condemned to death with his bomb and let him live because I felt he owed them his support too. I found the only way I could get this through to him was by letting him live and then cutting him loose - saying I didn't think a murderer was the best person to head up the free the mages movement.
Sharing your mind with a spirit is never going to be a good situation. I remember that Wynne also said that the presence of the spirit was draining her life force, so I would imagine that a combination of the strain of the split personality, the slow poison of the taint to his mind and the drain on his body, would lead to a premature death.
It would seem to me that he never anticipated being alive after the bomb. Either the bomb itself was meant to kill him or he thought he would be executed, so he would probably find some way of rectifying the situation regardless of his love's opinion - once he became fixed on an idea he would pursue it to the end he felt appropriate - after all that is what he did with the bomb. Either that or he will continually try to bring justice to a situation but only on his terms and eventually someone else will put a stop to him.

[Sepewrath]

nitefyre410 wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Justice was doing a pretty good job of adjusting to the mortal world by the end of Awakening. The question is why did he stop, why did he regress?

  

And that right there is 65 million  question.    I think  it has to more with how Anders approachs Justice - instead of  accepting Justice as aspect of himself.   He is trying fight Justice as   foreign enity but that is like fighting you own shadow you are never going to win.

Well I would think it has more to do with the way Justice exist in the world, it was riding a corpse in Awakening, dead bodies don't have feelings or thoughts so the impressionability of spirits doesn't come into play, it remains Justice. Inside Anders, with all his anger, its a wonder it didn't just become a Rage demon.

[MKDAWUSS]

I have a feeling Anders will show up post-DA2, killed or not.


... or rather, his body will be, along with his alter ego being driven even more to the extreme.

[Knight of Dane]

MKDAWUSS wrote...

I have a feeling Anders will show up post-DA2, killed or not.


... or rather, his body will be, along with his alter ego being driven even more to the extreme.

Yeah, i have suggested that too. Anders will die no matter what, but Justice seems to want to stay in the mortal world.

[nitefyre410]

Sepewrath wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Justice was doing a pretty good job of adjusting to the mortal world by the end of Awakening. The question is why did he stop, why did he regress?

  

And that right there is 65 million  question.    I think  it has to more with how Anders approachs Justice - instead of  accepting Justice as aspect of himself.   He is trying fight Justice as   foreign enity but that is like fighting you own shadow you are never going to win.

Well I would think it has more to do with the way Justice exist in the world, it was riding a corpse in Awakening, dead bodies don't have feelings or thoughts so the impressionability of spirits doesn't come into play, it remains Justice. Inside Anders, with all his anger, its a wonder it didn't just become a Rage demon.

 


It may have to do with whats driving Anders Rage that  Justice  shifedt to  Vengence and not the opposite - Rage.    Rage is usually fuel by something in this case it would  Anders  anger of the plight of mages.  Which has been building for a long time.    One thing is for sure   the Ander/Justice question and its answer  is far more complicated  than just  "he is an  abomination." 

*back to watching  Claymore * 

Modifié par nitefyre410, 10 août 2011 - 01:14 .

[maxernst]

Gervaise wrote...


Sharing your mind with a spirit is never going to be a good situation. I remember that Wynne also said that the presence of the spirit was draining her life force, so I would imagine that a combination of the strain of the split personality, the slow poison of the taint to his mind and the drain on his body, would lead to a premature death.
It would seem to me that he never anticipated being alive after the bomb. Either the bomb itself was meant to kill him or he thought he would be executed, so he would probably find some way of rectifying the situation regardless of his love's opinion - once he became fixed on an idea he would pursue it to the end he felt appropriate - after all that is what he did with the bomb. Either that or he will continually try to bring justice to a situation but only on his terms and eventually someone else will put a stop to him.

Actually, Wynne said the spirit was dying, draining its own life force to support her.  I tend to agree with you on Anders/Justice, though and actually played the end game the same way, though my Hawke's reasoning was different.

[London]

Yes I think Wynne's spirit was more benevolent; didn't something happen where Wynne should have died, but she felt that the spirit at that point invaded to keep her alive? I think at the point her spirit dies she will die with it. ((I can't recall when Wynne was mortally wounded, was it during the Circle situation?))

Thanks everyone for the replies and even reposting thoughts on Anders' future. I tried to look around the very long Anders thread here and there, but the discussions / photos etc. were all over; I'm sure there are other threads, I just didn't see anything recent on the future topic before posting.

I was unaware of anyone living with a spirit inside them for very long, so 6 years was already surprising to me. I thought you just got possessed and that was that.

My most recent Hawke friended Anders but did not romance him. His character revealed a lot less to my pure friend Hawke than romanced Anders, so he felt more distant and did seem to be one and the same with his cause. I just recalled his quest in Act II being enough to have him lose control for a time, and that was only facing a couple templars. I wonder if even friended Anders would be able to keep himself calm during an all-out war, especially if they were losing at some point.

[maxernst]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

The whole "circle vs. no training for mages" argument is an old one... Morrigan and Wynne literally have it in their Origins banter. It's an interesting question, but I think the answer is "Both of those things are a bad idea! What is wrong with you?"

What do I think happens when a powerful group is freed from oppression? Well it depends a lot on the group. It's not something that is inherently historically doomed. That said, I think the ideal solution is one where mages and mundanes work together to monitor and assist mages. There are a lot of viable solutions that aren't just "let untrained mages run amok." The Dalish system seems to be that young mages are simply apprenticed to older mages, and continue to live as a part of the community. You could try something like that, for instance. Or just fix the tower system so that mages and templars have equal amounts of power, and there's some outside, neutral faction who can moderate disputes. There are good solutions here, we're just never allowed to work toward any of them.

In an apprenticeship system, many mages would still have to be taken from their families, however, unless there just happened to be a mage willing to take them as an apprentice in the village they live in.  Most people probably live in small villages and the talent for magic must be quite rare if a single tower was viewed as sufficient for all the mages in Ferelden.  And if the mage isn't going to be paid for this (and how could a peasant family afford to pay for schooling), the apprentice would have to pay in service...which would still leave them  vulnerable to abuse,.  Historically, life as an apprentice in a guild could be pretty wretched if you had a cruel master. 

I actually have the sense that the way you describe the tower system is probably closer to what might have been its original intent, and it's more or less what Thrask had in mind.   Unfortunately, you don't have the option to assist that faction, owing to the lunatic Grace.  Even in Kirkwall, Orsino is able to appeal to Elthina...it's just that
she's not really a neutral party.  She won't do more to oppose Meredith than deny her the rite of annulment.  Maybe she is neutral, but just too weak or too fearful to act, it's hard to be sure.  I would have liked to have the option to push her harder.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

maxernst wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

The whole "circle vs. no training for mages" argument is an old one... Morrigan and Wynne literally have it in their Origins banter. It's an interesting question, but I think the answer is "Both of those things are a bad idea! What is wrong with you?"

What do I think happens when a powerful group is freed from oppression? Well it depends a lot on the group. It's not something that is inherently historically doomed. That said, I think the ideal solution is one where mages and mundanes work together to monitor and assist mages. There are a lot of viable solutions that aren't just "let untrained mages run amok." The Dalish system seems to be that young mages are simply apprenticed to older mages, and continue to live as a part of the community. You could try something like that, for instance. Or just fix the tower system so that mages and templars have equal amounts of power, and there's some outside, neutral faction who can moderate disputes. There are good solutions here, we're just never allowed to work toward any of them.

In an apprenticeship system, many mages would still have to be taken from their families, however, unless there just happened to be a mage willing to take them as an apprentice in the village they live in.  Most people probably live in small villages and the talent for magic must be quite rare if a single tower was viewed as sufficient for all the mages in Ferelden.  And if the mage isn't going to be paid for this (and how could a peasant family afford to pay for schooling), the apprentice would have to pay in service...which would still leave them  vulnerable to abuse,.  Historically, life as an apprentice in a guild could be pretty wretched if you had a cruel master. 

I actually have the sense that the way you describe the tower system is probably closer to what might have been its original intent, and it's more or less what Thrask had in mind.   Unfortunately, you don't have the option to assist that faction, owing to the lunatic Grace.  Even in Kirkwall, Orsino is able to appeal to Elthina...it's just that
she's not really a neutral party.  She won't do more to oppose Meredith than deny her the rite of annulment.  Maybe she is neutral, but just too weak or too fearful to act, it's hard to be sure.  I would have liked to have the option to push her harder.

I was describing the Dalish system as one that works, not necessarily one that humans would be able to adopt. Human society is too stratified and obsessed with wealth... as Merril points out, all that caring for the poor and helping those who cannot help themselves is handled by the clan in Dalish society, nobody is 'too poor' to afford to apprentice their child to a keeper, because the keeper considers it their personal responsibility to educate all the mages and ultimately choose a second.

Do I need to actually describe my proposed system? Apparently I do! Well far be it from me to shy away from a lengthy manifesto.

We need to eliminate the current system where Templars are trained, recruited, and controlled by the main chantry in Orlais. This gives the chantry too much central power, and Orlais itself an undue amount of influence. Instead, I think we should try to establish an order of people with Templar-abilities (like Alistair) who are not especially devout but have mastered the skills and volunteered for the responsibility of safeguarding mages. We'll still call these people templars, but they will be independent from chantry control, the chantry will not be able to 'call their banners' and pull templar groups away from their duties for an exalted march.

We'd want something similar to the circle to exist, but administered by a combination of mages, independent people with templar abilities, and a neutral third party (preferably composed of non-Andrastean elves and dwarves, so that it would remain neutral.) We'll call this new place the Citadel (GoT reference!).

Instead of Templars roaming the countryside looking for new mages, you'll have questors. These will be groups of three, comprised of one harrowed mage, one templar, and a neutral third party, probably a rogue or non-templar warrior, preferably of a race or group that does not follow the chantry (we'll call them 'the other guys'). When they find mages, they work with the mage and their family to see if it's best for the mage to go to the Citadel or not.

If the young mage doesn't want to go to the Citadel, there's the option to see if a tutor can be found for him. Tutors will be harrowed mages who have volunteered for the duty. They will move to the town and provide magical services (in the form of healing if they have any skill in that field and also some contribution to defense) while tutoring the young mage. If a mage does decide to go to the Citadel instead, families are allowed open communication and visitation rights. Small villages would be set up near the citadesl, with small homesteads set aside for mages' families. Some poorer families may be employed as porters or cooks in the tower itself, if they wish. While such places would be limited, they would provide another option. They might even eventually become powerful centers of trade, with room for larger populations.

If no agreement can be reached (for instance, if one parent wants the child to be sent away and the other does not, or if no suitable tutor can be found, or if the child has been shown to have a propensity toward dangerous magical accidents) then a hearing will be held to determine what the best course of action is. The hearing will be adjudicated by a group of senior mages, templars, and other guys.

I'd imagine in such a system that most mages would stay with their families through their early childhood at least, going to the Citadel in their early teens. Only after they "graduate" from the CItadel can mages work independently and live without the supervision of either the Citadel or a tutor. Mages from poorer families or alienages may find the citadel attractive from a young age, though, with its promise of food, shelter, and their own bed. Orphans would probably tend to do the same.

Even DA2 Anders says something about a world where mages can study by day and return home to their families at night. While this might not be possible everywhere, larger towns and cities may have smaller Citadels, the equivalent of mage primary schools. Parents sending their children to the nearest mage primary school and getting them home for the winter holiday and summers is another option.

So, how to pay for all this? Healing is incredibly valuable, and it seems as if most mages can at least learn the basics of it, even if not every mage can be  a Wynne or Anders-grade spirit healer. Graduate mages can run clinics where they charge on a sliding scale, countries can pay to have squadrons of battle-mages patrol the borders, or live in towns where raiders often strike. Merchants can pay a fee to have a mage ride with them on their ships, to fight against pirates. All mages pay a portion of their income back to the tower.

There. ::dusts hands:: There's more, but that's the basics.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 10 août 2011 - 02:32 .