19 réponses à ce sujet

[coldlogic82]

So for some reason in no previous playthrough had I brought Anders and Fenris to meet his sister in the same party.  Probably because while most characters provide funny, light hearted banter, the two of them just irritated me.  Listening to two fanatics on opposite ends of the spectrum is never fun.  But anyway, if you DO have anders in your party, and he discovers his sister is a mage, he calls Fenris a hypocrit, and claims he was always just jealous of mages.  If you get him to let his sister live, you find out he actually willingly submitted to the lyrium tatoos in exchange for his parents freedom.  His sister, being a mage, was never in any danger of becoming a slave. 

So, I'm usually the guy that goes "no, I don't think it's a jealousy issue," and that was my initial response here, but then I got to thinking about it.  In Tevinter, Fenris really was nothing.  He had the elf hate on top of the being a slave thing, while his sister gets off scott free for being a mage.  Did his master mistreat him?  You bet.  But you don't need to be a mage to mistreat a slave, obviously.  Is it possible his hatred of mages comes not only from a society in which, in all fairness, mages used some pretty not so great magic, but mostly stems from his not having it?  Does he blame magic for tainting every aspect of his life not because it actually has, but because he himself cannot have it?  Is his main issue that magic is evil because he came from a land where magic was power, and he wanted power?  Once again, the Imperium does not sound like a happy place, don't get me wrong, but his extreme hatred of all mages, no matter what they do, for good or for ill, seems much more like a hatred born of a mix of bad experiences with magic and jealousy for the inability to control it himself.  After all, had he been a mage, he never would have been a slave. 

[berelinde]

Actually, being a mage would not have kept Varania out of slavery. Part of a banter between Fenris and Anders:

■Anders: So, there must be mages in Tevinter that don't use blood magic.
■Fenris: Of course. There are slaves. The magisters do not hesitate to collar their own kind.


And no, I don't think Fenris is envious of mages. They both say a lot of hateful, hurtful things to each other. On the big scale of Anders/Fenris verbal battery, this is probably around 3/5.

[Sealy]

I don't think the hatred is envy, especially since Fenris doesn't remember his sister is a mage he wouldn't have known until the same time Anders did that there was anything to envy. It was pointed out to me that Anders probably didn't know about Fenris' memory loss so to him Fenris knew his sister was a mage from the start and hated that he wasn't. Fenris fought to save his sister and mother, that isn't something you do for someone your jealous of.

Edited: Cause posts are better when they are coherant.

Modifié par Fleshdress, 09 août 2011 - 07:15 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Is it a jealousy issue? Yes and no.

I think Fenris believes that anyone with great power will always abuse it, and he sees mages as having more power than normal humans, so he believes that they'll pretty much always try to rule if they have the chance.

Here's the problem: Fenris himself is quite powerful, and that personal power gives him an advantage over most other people, especially other elves. Yet there's a bit in his short story where he wonders why the city elves "squander" their freedom, not acknowledging that he has more social mobility than they do by very virtue of his increased personal power, which stem from both his inherent combat skills and his enchanted markings.

The problem is, if you were going to lock up everyone in Thedas who poses a serious danger to those around them... sure you'd start with mages, but as soon as they were all taken care of you'd have to move on to people like Fenris next. It's been made clear that demons will possess any kind of mortal who can give them power... mages are just easier to access and more tempting. They can and will possess non-mages as well, though.

Fenris is afraid of those who have more power than him, and for him that mostly means mages. The thing he is offered in his demon deal is the power to face Danarius on equal terms, so I think he does wish he was as powerful as a mage, but it's largely out of a desire not to feel helpless.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 09 août 2011 - 07:20 .

[Knight of Dane]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Is it a jealousy issue? Yes and no.

I think Fenris believes that anyone with great power will always abuse it, and he sees mages as having more power than normal humans, so he believes that they'll pretty much always try to rule if they have the chance.

Here's the problem: Fenris himself is quite powerful, and that personal power gives him an advantage over most other people, especially other elves. Yet there's a bit in his short story where he wonders why the city elves "squander" their freedom, not acknowledging that he has more social mobility than they do by very virtue of his increased personal power, which stem from both his inherent combat skills and his enchanted markings.

The problem is, if you were going to lock up everyone in Thedas who poses a serious danger to those around them... sure you'd start with mages, but as soon as they were all taken care of you'd have to move on to people like Fenris next. It's been made clear that demons will possess any kind of mortal who can give them power... mages are just easier to access and more tempting. They can and will possess non-mages as well, though.

Fenris is afraid of those who have more power than him, and for him that mostly means mages. The thing he is offered in his demon deal is the power to face Danarius on equal terms, so I think he does wish he was as powerful as a mage, but it's largely out of a desire not to feel helpless.

Did my pants just get wet? This is well written and very true.

[Sepewrath]

I would have to disagree with the above, because power comes in many forms. If Fenris feared people with more power them him, then he would fear Hawke, Meredith, the Chantry, Kings, people like Loghain etc. It doesn't take magic or any special powers to move mountains. I don't think Fenris is envious, simply put he was oppressed and abused by magic for the part of his life that he does remember. That will naturally stir up feelings of animosity in a person.

[Icy Magebane]

I doubt it. This analysis seems to ignore the fact that Fenris was enslaved and tortured by a mage. It doesn't really matter what his sister experienced. He still suffered, thus, he hates and mistrusts all mages.

I think that Anders just does a good job of saying what people want to hear, and twisting facts to support his claims. I mean hell, the fact that you traveled anywhere with Anders makes it obvious that you are at least sympathetic to his cause... so of course you would come to an agreement with him regarding a man who hates mages (Fenris). It's not that complicated...

[Quething]

Icy Magebane wrote...

the fact that you traveled anywhere with Anders makes it obvious that you are at least sympathetic to his cause...

The fact that you travel anywhere with Anders makes nothing obvious other than that you travelled anywhere with Anders. Many people who despise him carry him 24/7 because they want access to the Creation tree. Which is in fact more than likely the main reason that Merrill lacks said tree.

[Heidenreich]

Quething wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

the fact that you traveled anywhere with Anders makes it obvious that you are at least sympathetic to his cause...

The fact that you travel anywhere with Anders makes nothing obvious other than that you travelled anywhere with Anders. Many people who despise him carry him 24/7 because they want access to the Creation tree. Which is in fact more than likely the main reason that Merrill lacks said tree.

Except its intirely possible to play the game, even on nightmare, with out Anders. A Mage Hawke can have healing spells, and all other classes and combinations of comapnions you bring with you can drink health potions, of which there are three different types. There are also several different forms of Cc outside of GoP. I like to stack merrill with entropy for sleep and horror, give Varric the various fog/stun flasks .. 

and lets not forget the potion of mythal, which is effectively a resurection spell that can be used by all party members and only caries a personal cooldown ;p

So, yea

Carrying Anders soully because of his creation tree is a weak excuse! YOU BRING HIM BECAUSE YOU LIKE HIM, DON'T LIE.



As for Fenris and his mage envy.

Eh. I don't think he has mage envy so much as power envy. That being said, he has absolutely no clue his sister is a mage until the moment she tells him, and he doesn't even get that much if you let him kill her. Anders picking up on this and running with it is because, and let me bold and italic this for emphasis, Anders and Fenris do not like one another.

Let me repeat, Anders and Fenris do not like one another. At all. Not even a little.

Anders tries early on to get Fenris to see his point of view, but by the time we see the two of them in Act 2, Anders has utterly given up any hope of making Fenris see the truth, and writes him off as someone he has to put up with for the sake of Hawke.

It's roughly the same thing with Fenris. If you take Fen along for the end of Anders' act 2 quest, Dissent, where you're talking to him in the clinic, and ask him "WTF JUST HAPPENED", Fenris will pipe in, with a concerned tone that Anders really should just learn his limitations. Anders.. basically tells him to **** off. Fenris lets him know that it wasn't meant to be taken that way.. but you get the idea that later on Fenris is all "you know what? f that guy. I tried to help him understand, but if he wont, then.. well.. f him."

Then, Fenris writes off Anders as someone he has to put up with, for the sake of Hawke.

Thus, both severly dislike each other, but are kind of civil to each other when Hawke is around, which is effectively probably the only time they see each other. Except maybe Wicked Grace night, with Varric.

Modifié par Heidenreich, 10 août 2011 - 12:07 .

[Quething]

Heidenreich wrote...

Except its intirely possible to play the game, even on nightmare, with out Anders. A Mage Hawke can have healing spells, and all other classes and combinations of comapnions you bring with you can drink health potions, of which there are three different types. There are also several different forms of Cc outside of GoP. I like to stack merrill with entropy for sleep and horror, give Varric the various fog/stun flasks .. 

and lets not forget the potion of mythal, which is effectively a resurection spell that can be used by all party members and only caries a personal cooldown ;p

So, yea

Carrying Anders soully because of his creation tree is a weak excuse! YOU BRING HIM BECAUSE YOU LIKE HIM, DON'T LIE.

I like him just fine! I mean, I want to smack him pretty damn hard, but I want to smack everyone in the game except Izzy and maybe Sandal, so that doesn't mean much.  But anyway the Creation tree love has nothing to do with Heal. It's all about the Haste and Heroic Aura. Haste in particular there's just no substitute for.


Anyway yeah I'm with you on the Fenris thing. But I do think Anders' accusation is at least partly legit from his perspective; as mentioned upthread, he probably doesn't know about Fenris' amnesia. Given it takes three years for Fenris to even tell Hawke about it, it doesn't seem to be something he shares that freely (and of course, why would he? That information gives a certain degree of power over Fenris, and Fenris, as you say, has some understandable issues about needing/being subject to power).

[Ryzaki]

Anders is the only one (outside mage Hawke and Bethany) with access to Haste.
That right there is plenty of reason to drag him around even if you utterly hate him. Sadly unlike everything else there's no item to replace haste (outside the rune you get from Varric's act 3 quest...which is in act 3. And that's only for one character).

[Heidenreich]

Eh, haste is useful yes, but you can live with out it, and if you're seriously hurting for extra attack speed, bring a friended Isabella with you. Mind you, it does nothing for the rest of  your group, but, eh, details.

At the end of the day, it's still a weak excuse ;p

Modifié par Heidenreich, 10 août 2011 - 02:04 .

[Icy Magebane]

There really isn't any magic that Anders can use that would make me travel with him, but that's just my opinion. Haste is all well and good, but doesn't come close to making up for how annoying that guy is (to me). And as people have explained, there are lots of alternatives to magic anyway... I only play on Hard, but I never use mages at all unless they are part of a specific quest. Never had a problem.

Of course, I can't say a damn thing about Nightmare... that difficulty level isn't my idea of fun (though I might eventually try it some day).

edited for horrendous grammar... >.>

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 10 août 2011 - 03:35 .

[Ryzaki]

Heidenreich wrote...

Eh, haste is useful yes, but you can live with out it, and if you're seriously hurting for extra attack speed, bring a friended Isabella with you. Mind you, it does nothing for the rest of  your group, but, eh, details.

At the end of the day, it's still a weak excuse ;p

 

you can live without a party. Doesn't mean it's the easiest way to play. 

I don't see it as weak. I dragged around Wynne's old irritating self all DAO because she had haste. 

[MG800]

Icy Magebane wrote...

There really isn't any magic that Anders can use that would make me travel with him, but that's just my opinion. Haste is all well and good, but doesn't come close to making up for how annoying that guy is (to me). And as people have explained, there are lots of alternatives to magic anyway... I only play on Hard, but I never use mages at all unless they are part of a specific quest. Never had a problem.

Of course, I can't say a damn thing about Nightmare... that difficulty level isn't my idea of fun (though I might eventually try it some day).

edited for horrendous grammar... >.>

Don't worry, Anders is annoying. Just some of us find it cute - the same can be said about Fenris. And "there's no magic that can make me travel with him" should be said by anyone who claim to hate this character - you either can't stand the guy, or you're rivaling him (so he isn't that bad). 
The way I see it, If you really don't want someone in the party, because he/she makes you cringe and gnash your teeth with anger, you'll do anything to survive without them.

Modifié par MG800, 10 août 2011 - 05:07 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I don't think Fenris has a case of mage envy because Anders said so. I like Anders, but at this point the boy's pretty much nonsensical a great deal of the time; not exactly a master of convincing rhetoric. I keep wanting to shake him and scream "stop making your points so badly, you dink!"

It's the offer in Night Terrors and Fenris's response that make me think he envies the power of mages on some level. Wyrm offers him the power to face them as an equal, and he accepts it. I mean, that's as clear as you can get... he's willing to treat with demons, the very thing he says makes mages dangerous and horrible and inhuman, and for what? To be as powerful as a mage.

The "you really are just jealous" line is one of those times that I want to grab Anders by the collar and say "You see that, right there? NOT HELPING," but I think it's extra-special-super-not-helping because there's a tiny grain of truth there. I think that Fenris is a mass of hate and rage and fear and jealousy. Mostly it's hate and rage and fear, but some part of it is a belief that if he were as powerful as a mage he'd never have to be afraid again. That's why he accepts the offer.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 10 août 2011 - 05:45 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

D'oh! Fixed, thanks.

[Gervaise]

Ander says a lot of stupid things and he basically says what he does at that time because Fenris has previously called him a hypocryte and he is just getting his own back - he is very petty and childish sometimes.  Remember also that Anders is actually in favour of you handing Fenris back into slavery.  You discover the sister is a mage regardless of whether or not you kill her but, given that Anders now knows she is a mage, when you are trying to talk Fenris out of killing her, and Varric backs you up and says something to the effect of listen to your friends, stupid dick Anders pipes up "I'm not his friend."   Which given we are teetering on a knife edge with Fenris at this point is about as tactless and irresponsible as you can get, particularly when he is meant to care about mages.  If you can't say something helpful, just keep quiet.  

The essential part if you persuade Fenris to spare his sister, is that you get to discover that at one time Leto was noble enough to sacrifice himself to Danarius' whims in order to free his mother and sister from slavery.  At this time may be his sister was too young to have shown magical power.  Or may be Danarius already knew that he might eventually free her anyway but let Leto believe differently.   Fenris had already admitted to me after killing Hadrianna that some part of him wanted to spare her life after giving his word but the hate he feels is so ingrained, it just gets the better of him.    Now it is clear that whatever Fenris has become it is as a result of what Danarius has done to him, mind as well as body.    And to be honest, a lot of what he states about mages tends to be borne out by events in Kirkwall.    That is not to say it is true of mages generally because clearly this is a very bad area for mages to be, owing to the veil being so thin as a result of past magical activity - in particular the amount of death that has occurred.  Nevertheless it may be a reflection of the situation in Tevinter

So far as Fenris is concerned, by the end he does concede that not all mages are bad but that temptaton is always there and it takes a very strong minded mage to resist.  His experience in the Fade has also shown him that mage Hawke was able to resist temptation when he was not.  When I ask him towards the end as a mage Hawke, during our romance reconciliation, if he still blames magic for everything, he acknowledges that Hawke is a good mage but that for every mage like me there are a dozen you need to be scared of.    Bearing in mind what occurs in Kirkwall, that is not unreasonable.  As for free mages generally, we have yet to see what happens now all the Circles in Thedas have gone, so the jury is still out on that one.  

However, Anders' constant justification for blood mage excesses that "they are desperate", when he himself has always been so critical of Merrill's use of blood magic, is about as hypocritical as you can get, particularly since he should have noticed that neither Hawke, if a mage, or Bethany resort to blood magic, demon summoning or other extremes.   When he watched the Orsino transformation and after we kill him, once again says, "oh he was desperate", I wanted to thump him or kill him, but unfortunately this was not allowed.

So may be Fenris does envy the power that mages possess in Tevinter because of the control that this allows them but as suggested above, it is more ability to confront your enemies on equal terms rather than a desire for the actual magical talent itself.

[Neminea]

Why does it always sound to me like everyone thinks Fenris hates all mages?
He really doesn't as a romance between him and mage hawke shows. In banter between him and Anders he also says that either Hawke (if H is a mage) or the sister are not weak.

Fenris does not hate all mages, he hates weak mages and fears for their ability to resist demons. After the demon in the fade thing he is even more sure of the fact that mages are a danger to themselves and others. He experienced first hand how hard it is to resist a demon (they get into your head you know) and he just can't imagine many people being able to resist that. Even the strong ones, since it's probably not a one time thing for any mage but something that keeps happening over and over again.

Does he envy mages for their power? No, he pities them for the fact that they have to live their entire life at risk of being tempted by a demon.