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[Loup Blanc]

What good reason is there to romance Tali? - She clucks like a chicken when you take her from behind.

Seriously? I don't know. I never undersood the obsession for her character.

More seriously, platonic love does exist. You may love a person more than anything, and not necessarily require or crave a sexual contact with them.

[ChaplainTappman]

Xeranx wrote...

If the person that you're involved with keeps bringing up aspects that remind you that there's a danger to going the physical route at what point does it continue to be a thing of 'love, by definition, is irrational' and not become "doing this is insane"?

Actually the onus is on Shepard.  Shepard is her leader, her rescuer, her rudder, and Tali gives Shepard chances to stop it.  It is Shepard's responsibility to handle this situation because it's his/her job to do so.  Tali's reaction to possible physical contact with Shepard is similar to Grunt's condition prior to his loyalty mission.  That feeling of restlessness  and wanting something to do about it badly creates the idea that the person in question is unstable.  And as you've expressed Tali is an adult as well.  So it should be easier to redirect her focus to something else unlike Grunt who could be a real handfull prior to the main mission if he's not told about why he feels as restless as he does.

She brings up that there's a danger, but she also consistently mentions that there are steps to be taken to mitigate that danger. She says that she's taken those steps, that this is something she wants, etc. Would the smart, entirely rational response be to say, "no, we should wait until it doesn't affect the mission"? Absolutely. Is that what I would say if I were personally in the same situation? Probably, because I'm not scripted. But at the same time, I understand going ahead with it. If she says she's ready, if she says she's minimized the danger, then yeah, sure. Sex is always dangerous, and the best you can do is minimize the danger.

I'm not saying Shepard bears no responsibility, but as an adult Tali is responsible for her actions. Just because she's under Shepard's command in a quasi-military setting doesn't mean she surrenders all responsibility to him. 

Dean_the_Young wrote...

And you know what we call people who insist on doing stupid things that they know are, in fact, stupid to do at such a time?

Stupid.

Stupidity is not a good reason to do something, nor is an obligation on anyone's part to, in fact, indulge in stupidity by others. Love is irational, but Shepard and Tali are not. Billions of people every day handle the irrational feelings of love in rational, mature ways.

Indulging in love/lust to the detriment of others is no more heroic than indulging in alcohol.

I never said it was heroic. I said it was an understandable action taken by two people who have very strong feelings for one another. And yes, Shepard and Tali are irrational. They're irrational because they're organic beings. Every organic being in this universe is irrational. I would venture to guess that every sapient being in the universe made at least one irrational, stupid decision today. I know I did. We're not automatons.

So making an unwise decision is the same thing as insanity? I ate fast food today. I shouldn't have; it's bad for me, I don't feel well after eating it, I didn't need to spend the money. In all, it was a stupid decision. That makes me equivalent to John Hinkley?

[Weiser_Cain]

I made no irrational decisions today. I had irrational impulses, but I decided losing my job at this point wasn't worth the momentary satisfaction I would feel.
If I could I would have waited until after the mission.

[ScotGaymer]

So we are decided?

There is no good reason to Talimance.

Good glad thats decided. Well done people.

[Soccer FeverMan]

There is no good reason honestly, with all the other LI (with except of Thane) your Shepard will have had more intimate contact in one year than and Shepard with Tali will in like 5+years.

Don't gimme the bullcrap that "oh since they do it so rarely it'll be special each time", and the other sh*t where people say physical contact isn't all that important to a relation ship cuz it is.

My friend as shallow as he may sound dumped his girl seeing how they they did it every other week

[Weiser_Cain]

Soccer FeverMan wrote...

There is no good reason honestly, with all the other LI (with except of Thane) your Shepard will have had more intimate contact in one year than and Shepard with Tali will in like 5+years.

Don't gimme the bullcrap that "oh since they do it so rarely it'll be special each time", and the other sh*t where people say physical contact isn't all that important to a relation ship cuz it is.

My friend as shallow as he may sound dumped his girl seeing how they they did it every other week

Tell me again how important physical contact is to me again... Also you do know you aren't actually touching any of these characters, right?

[Xeranx]

ChaplainTappman wrote...

Xeranx wrote...

If the person that you're involved with keeps bringing up aspects that remind you that there's a danger to going the physical route at what point does it continue to be a thing of 'love, by definition, is irrational' and not become "doing this is insane"?

Actually the onus is on Shepard.  Shepard is her leader, her rescuer, her rudder, and Tali gives Shepard chances to stop it.  It is Shepard's responsibility to handle this situation because it's his/her job to do so.  Tali's reaction to possible physical contact with Shepard is similar to Grunt's condition prior to his loyalty mission.  That feeling of restlessness  and wanting something to do about it badly creates the idea that the person in question is unstable.  And as you've expressed Tali is an adult as well.  So it should be easier to redirect her focus to something else unlike Grunt who could be a real handfull prior to the main mission if he's not told about why he feels as restless as he does.

She brings up that there's a danger, but she also consistently mentions that there are steps to be taken to mitigate that danger. She says that she's taken those steps, that this is something she wants, etc. Would the smart, entirely rational response be to say, "no, we should wait until it doesn't affect the mission"? Absolutely. Is that what I would say if I were personally in the same situation? Probably, because I'm not scripted. But at the same time, I understand going ahead with it. If she says she's ready, if she says she's minimized the danger, then yeah, sure. Sex is always dangerous, and the best you can do is minimize the danger.

I'm not saying Shepard bears no responsibility, but as an adult Tali is responsible for her actions. Just because she's under Shepard's command in a quasi-military setting doesn't mean she surrenders all responsibility to him. 

And it's Shepard allowing Tali to take those measures that makes no sense.  I'm not saying that Tali surrenders responsibility to Shepard or that she should.  I'm saying that Shepard has a greater responsibility in this namely because Tali can't have sex with Shepard unless Shepard gives consent.  His role in this is worse because he let things progress to the point that they did.  The minute Tali said she was going to research anything relating to spending the night together Shepard, ultimately, had the responsibility to direct Tali's efforts elsewhere because Tali apparantly forgot about the fact that she's part of a team whose goal is to survive a suicide mission that they might not come back from.

No doubt, Tali has a responsibility to bear, but it is in no way greater than Shepard's responsibility to her and the rest of the crew.  

[ChaplainTappman]

Xeranx wrote...

And it's Shepard allowing Tali to take those measures that makes no sense.  I'm not saying that Tali surrenders responsibility to Shepard or that she should.  I'm saying that Shepard has a greater responsibility in this namely because Tali can't have sex with Shepard unless Shepard gives consent.  His role in this is worse because he let things progress to the point that they did.  The minute Tali said she was going to research anything relating to spending the night together Shepard, ultimately, had the responsibility to direct Tali's efforts elsewhere because Tali apparantly forgot about the fact that she's part of a team whose goal is to survive a suicide mission that they might not come back from.

No doubt, Tali has a responsibility to bear, but it is in no way greater than Shepard's responsibility to her and the rest of the crew.  

I guess that's fair, though I keep going back to the inherent irrationality of organics, especially in matters to love. The reality is that both of them had plenty of opportunities to make a rational decision, and they didn't. It makes sense to hope Shepard would step up, as he's older, more mature, and is an experienced military leader. Like I said, were I Shepard, were the situation occurring in the real world, I probably at some point would have said, "you know, this is a bad idea right now, we should wait until this won't potentially compromise the mission." But since it's a game and the whole thing's basically on rails, that isn't an option.

It does occur to me, though, that quarian-specific health concerns aside, we could have this exact debate about any LI in either game. Romancing anybody is a poor decision, from a command perspective.

[Xeranx]

True, romancing anyone in that situation is a poor decision. What allows it to occur is that the other LIs don't have obstacles to overcome like exists with Tali. Tali has to always be mindful of her and her suit's condition. Growing up as she did, I imagine, makes routine checks on her suit instinctual. Kind of like how most people check both ways on a one way street before crossing. Then again, that could just be me.

[AnAccountWithNoName]

Quole wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Or rather an older teen crush.

she was 22 in ME1

And where is that mentioned?  I don't remember that, and i played ME1.

[ChaplainTappman]

Xeranx wrote...

True, romancing anyone in that situation is a poor decision. What allows it to occur is that the other LIs don't have obstacles to overcome like exists with Tali. Tali has to always be mindful of her and her suit's condition. Growing up as she did, I imagine, makes routine checks on her suit instinctual. Kind of like how most people check both ways on a one way street before crossing. Then again, that could just be me.

Yeah, it's just you. Well, I could be the weird one. I live in a college town. If there are fewer than six lanes, cars stop for you.

[mauro2222]

This is really pointless xD, arguing why someone likes something. Is personal, is obvious that we won´t share the same apetite or desire.

[Goneaviking]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

A thought to throw out there.

While you never need a good reason to do a neutral action, you very much do need good reasons to justify taking real unnecessary risks.

From Tali's statements it appears that virtually all of the issues that she'd have to face by romancing Shepard she'd also have to deal with by romancing a fellow quarian.

Trading (for example) inability to reproduce within the union for no risk of STDs may well seem like a fair tradeoff for some people. The allergies that make her ill with Shepard would still impact her with a quarian lover, and she'll ultimately develop a resistance to them anyway.

Although it remains irresponsible to subject her to the existing risks immediately prior to an important mission.

[Dean_the_Young]

Quole wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Or rather an older teen crush.

she was 22 in ME1

And that defeats the rather obvious meaning of the comparison...?

Unless, of course, you feel that people who are over 19 are instantly more mature?

[Dean_the_Young]

ChaplainTappman wrote...

I never said it was heroic. I said it was an understandable action taken by two people who have very strong feelings for one another. And yes, Shepard and Tali are irrational. They're irrational because they're organic beings. Every organic being in this universe is irrational. I would venture to guess that every sapient being in the universe made at least one irrational, stupid decision today. I know I did. We're not automatons.

Well, since we've agreed that Shepard and Tali were being stupid when they both well had grounds, knowledge, and the reasonable expectation of 'maturity' and 'responsibility' not to be, we can move on to the next step.

What's an appropriate punishment for people who endanger others as a result of willful stupidity? Would the Commanding Officer of the Normandy have the integrity to carry out such discipline?

After all, no one demands you be rational all the time... only that you exercise due prudance to keep irrationality away from Important Things.

So making an unwise decision is the same thing as insanity? I ate fast food today. I shouldn't have; it's bad for me, I don't feel well after eating it, I didn't need to spend the money. In all, it was a stupid decision. That makes me equivalent to John Hinkley?

Since you're rather jumping between responding to two different people to make a reducto ad strawman, which one would have to be rather crazy to take seriously...

[Dean_the_Young]

Goneaviking wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

A thought to throw out there.

While you never need a good reason to do a neutral action, you very much do need good reasons to justify taking real unnecessary risks.

From Tali's statements it appears that virtually all of the issues that she'd have to face by romancing Shepard she'd also have to deal with by romancing a fellow quarian.

An excellent point for having a prohibition against two quarians screwing right before a mission. A much poorer point for pardoning a Quarian screwing with someone else (or even anyone else screwing a Quarian).

When the harm of an action occurs regardless of who is the accomplice, it does not excuse the accomplice.

Trading (for example) inability to reproduce within the union for no risk of STDs may well seem like a fair tradeoff for some people. The allergies that make her ill with Shepard would still impact her with a quarian lover, and she'll ultimately develop a resistance to them anyway.

Besides that STD is a disease classification by transmission type, not based upon 'intended' partner (ie, you can pick up STD's from sex with animals rather than humans), if Quarian STD's have the immediate potential for short-term devastation as sex with any other species has it is still not a good idea for a quarian to have sex at all before an important mission. If two things are equally bad, neither is good or excused.

Although it remains irresponsible to subject her to the existing risks immediately prior to an important mission.

Certainly agreed.

[Dean_the_Young]

ChaplainTappman wrote...

Xeranx wrote...

And it's Shepard allowing Tali to take those measures that makes no sense.  I'm not saying that Tali surrenders responsibility to Shepard or that she should.  I'm saying that Shepard has a greater responsibility in this namely because Tali can't have sex with Shepard unless Shepard gives consent.  His role in this is worse because he let things progress to the point that they did.  The minute Tali said she was going to research anything relating to spending the night together Shepard, ultimately, had the responsibility to direct Tali's efforts elsewhere because Tali apparantly forgot about the fact that she's part of a team whose goal is to survive a suicide mission that they might not come back from.

No doubt, Tali has a responsibility to bear, but it is in no way greater than Shepard's responsibility to her and the rest of the crew.  

I guess that's fair, though I keep going back to the inherent irrationality of organics, especially in matters to love. The reality is that both of them had plenty of opportunities to make a rational decision, and they didn't. It makes sense to hope Shepard would step up, as he's older, more mature, and is an experienced military leader. Like I said, were I Shepard, were the situation occurring in the real world, I probably at some point would have said, "you know, this is a bad idea right now, we should wait until this won't potentially compromise the mission." But since it's a game and the whole thing's basically on rails, that isn't an option.

It does occur to me, though, that quarian-specific health concerns aside, we could have this exact debate about any LI in either game. Romancing anybody is a poor decision, from a command perspective.

Organics aren't inherently irrational. Organics often fail to be rational, but that failure is not inherent, universal, or excused on the basis of being organic. You might as well give any other classification to fit in: 'men' are inherently irrational, 'women' are inherently irrational, 'people between the ages of 16 and 36' are inherently irrational.

You are, of course, completely correct in your last point: every Shepard who indulges in such romances with his crew has instantly made a significant failure of leadership and responsibility.

[Dean_the_Young]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

A thought to throw out there.

While you never need a good reason to do a neutral action, you very much do need good reasons to justify taking real unnecessary risks.

I actually don't think going through with the romance is justified, but sometimes I let my Shepard make bad decisions for the sake of drama or just to satisfy what I want to see (mainly I want to see how the relationship works out in ME3).

Of course. And if you're willing to admit that it's a bad decision... we're in full agreement.

I justify one of my Shepard's saving the Council on the basis of a concussion in the fight with Saren. Does that make it a better choice? No. Does that excuse the choice? No. 

That said, they're both about to fly into the maw of the dragon know they may very well not come back. It's a wrong thing to thing about, but they can't help it. They're just human (so to speak).

Actually, they can. Because they're, well, Human. If they didn't have a choice, then Tali would be the canon romance.

(And everyone knows that's Liara.)

Though it would be nice if you could put off the sex-scene until after the Suicide Mission.

I'd have far more respect for both Tali and a Talimancing Shepard if you could do that.

[Dean_the_Young]

Saphra Deden wrote...

I can't speak for everyone but I changed a lot between the ages of 19 and 22 in large part because of my experiences.

And yet you're still no more mature.

(Wink wink/smile smile/that is a joke)

[jamesp81]

jreezy wrote...

Why romance Tali? She's a nerd!

But I like nerdy girls

They don't like me, but that's not the point.

[Dean_the_Young]

jamesp81 wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Why romance Tali? She's a nerd!

But I like nerdy girls

That was his point, I think.

Call it the 'fetish for geek girls.'

Combined with a lot of player-praising adoration.

[Dean_the_Young]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Actually, they can. Because they're, well, Human. If they didn't have a choice, then Tali would be the canon romance.
(And everyone knows that's Liara.)

I think you might have missed the point.

 

Oh, I got the point you were trying to make (that people can't help the decisions they make). I simply disagree (because people have the ability to choose otherwise).

You can be conditioned and inclined to make a particular choice 99 times out of 99, but you still make the choice. It isn't forced, and it isn't inherent, and more than some people choose to fight and some people choose to flee. That we can overcome inclinations is what makes us, well Human (in the self-determination aspect).

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 11 août 2011 - 03:16 .