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The End is NOT a "good jumping in point," Bioware


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#301
Iakus

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KotorEffect3 wrote...

Didn't bother reading the whole thread, I will just say this when trying to bring in new fans they are not going to market it by saying "you will be lost if you didn't play the other two, so it is only worth it if you played the first two". Of course we as fans know that it is better to have already played the other two but that doesn't mean that people that havn't will be lost. Don't know why this is such an issue with some people.


Or they could go "This game looks cool, huh?  Intergalactic war!  Bad**** space marine!  Not gonna be out for a few months yet, but you can see how it all started by playing the first two games!  They've been out for a while so they're cheap now.  Enjoy them and when Mass Effect 3 comes out, you'll have a save ready to import AND SEE HOW YOUR CHOICES SHAPED THIS GAME!"

"If you don't, it's cool, we'll get you up to speed.  But wouldn't you rather experience the whole story?"  (and boost our sales too?)

#302
Mass N7 Effect N7 Maniac

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PoliteAssasin wrote...

They were in way over their heads it seems. Now by disregarding the previous games, they can make it easier on themselves for development. Made an "important" choice in the first two games? Get an email from someone in the third. Simple as that.


-Polite


yea tht pissed me off about the second game!! I dont want a damn email! I want somethin to happen!

#303
RocketManSR2

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EDI: "You have received 11853 emails, Shepard." (Since Kelly will be reduced to only an email, or goo depending on the outcome of 2)

#304
Jaron Oberyn

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As funny as that is, I'd advise you jollyorigins to edit your post. The volunteer mods on this site get up in arms whenever someone says anything remotely negative about a bioware employee.


-Polite

#305
KotorEffect3

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iakus wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Didn't bother reading the whole thread, I will just say this when trying to bring in new fans they are not going to market it by saying "you will be lost if you didn't play the other two, so it is only worth it if you played the first two". Of course we as fans know that it is better to have already played the other two but that doesn't mean that people that havn't will be lost. Don't know why this is such an issue with some people.


Or they could go "This game looks cool, huh?  Intergalactic war!  Bad**** space marine!  Not gonna be out for a few months yet, but you can see how it all started by playing the first two games!  They've been out for a while so they're cheap now.  Enjoy them and when Mass Effect 3 comes out, you'll have a save ready to import AND SEE HOW YOUR CHOICES SHAPED THIS GAME!"

"If you don't, it's cool, we'll get you up to speed.  But wouldn't you rather experience the whole story?"  (and boost our sales too?)



They could and they probably eventualy will.  I remember in interviews leading up to ME 2 they would still plug ME 1 a little bit but at the same time they wanted to ME 2 to sell itself on it's own merits.  I think that is what they are doing with ME 3 right now trying to sell it on it's own merits.  Besides do you or I really need to be marketed to?  I can't speak for you but I know I will be getting ME 3 unless some unforseen crisis happens in my life on the day of release.  I don't need to be marketed to.   While I do agree with you, I can see why they are taking the approach they are.

#306
Guest_laecraft_*

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He's right, though. Who cares about those past love affairs? The Reapers are destroying the galaxy. Of course, there are people out there who would take their Tali and sail to a distant star in the galaxy while the Reapers harvest the Earth. To those people, naturally, it's an outrage that the war takes precedence over romances. Better accept it, though. Shepard's a warrior, not a lover.

He's right about the past choices, too. It's the thing of the past. Those people you've met and killed and helped in the past, they don't matter anymore. The world is coming to its end. Practically nothing you did to this point matters. The Reapers are here - that's the only thing that matters now.

Everything that happened before, everything you did, all your struggles and hopes - erased, insignificant, gone. You're just a dust struggling against cosmic winds. And when the Reapers win and all advanced organic life is wiped out, nothing that anyone did before will matter. It's not just you whose choices lost all meaning - it's everyone in the galaxy. Take solace in that.

Hard to accept, perhaps, because we've been promised exactly the opposite. But our celestial masters are just too strong. We cannot struggle against them.

Never you mind your past choices making a difference. After DA, which wasn't very interactive, the very extent of my dream is our PRESENT choices making a difference. As long as we can actually influence the game we're playing, it can still be enjoyable experience. I have dark doubts about that.

#307
Jaron Oberyn

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Mass N7 Effect N7 Maniac wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...

They were in way over their heads it seems. Now by disregarding the previous games, they can make it easier on themselves for development. Made an "important" choice in the first two games? Get an email from someone in the third. Simple as that.


-Polite


yea tht pissed me off about the second game!! I dont want a damn email! I want somethin to happen!


I blame that on the development time. If they had more time to create the game, we would have had consequences to our decisions.


-Polite

#308
mopotter

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iakus wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Didn't bother reading the whole thread, I will just say this when trying to bring in new fans they are not going to market it by saying "you will be lost if you didn't play the other two, so it is only worth it if you played the first two". Of course we as fans know that it is better to have already played the other two but that doesn't mean that people that havn't will be lost. Don't know why this is such an issue with some people.


Or they could go "This game looks cool, huh?  Intergalactic war!  Bad**** space marine!  Not gonna be out for a few months yet, but you can see how it all started by playing the first two games!  They've been out for a while so they're cheap now.  Enjoy them and when Mass Effect 3 comes out, you'll have a save ready to import AND SEE HOW YOUR CHOICES SHAPED THIS GAME!"

"If you don't, it's cool, we'll get you up to speed.  But wouldn't you rather experience the whole story?"  (and boost our sales too?)


This is far to reasonable.  Wish they would use it.:) 

Like others who have played ME1 and ME2 over and over I do remember my choices from the games, certainly not rain man just a repeat player.

#309
Jaron Oberyn

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laecraft wrote...

He's right, though. Who cares about those past love affairs? The Reapers are destroying the galaxy. Of course, there are people out there who would take their Tali and sail to a distant star in the galaxy while the Reapers harvest the Earth. To those people, naturally, it's an outrage that the war takes precedence over romances. Better accept it, though. Shepard's a warrior, not a lover.

He's right about the past choices, too. It's the thing of the past. Those people you've met and killed and helped in the past, they don't matter anymore. The world is coming to its end. Practically nothing you did to this point matters. The Reapers are here - that's the only thing that matters now.

Everything that happened before, everything you did, all your struggles and hopes - erased, insignificant, gone. You're just a dust struggling against cosmic winds. And when the Reapers win and all advanced organic life is wiped out, nothing that anyone did before will matter. It's not just you whose choices lost all meaning - it's everyone in the galaxy. Take solace in that.

Hard to accept, perhaps, because we've been promised exactly the opposite. But our celestial masters are just too strong. We cannot struggle against them.

Never you mind your past choices making a difference. After DA, which wasn't very interactive, the very extent of my dream is our PRESENT choices making a difference. As long as we can actually influence the game we're playing, it can still be enjoyable experience. I have dark doubts about that.


Of course, who cares that the game was marketed as having to make tough decisions with consequences that significantly affect the game and subsequent titles of this trilogy. What were we thinking when we believed that?:innocent:


-Polite

#310
Sunnie

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  David Silverman wrote:

Mass Effect came out almost eight years ago – you’re not going to remember all the details from when you played that game, right? Even I can’t recall everything that happened to me when that came out in 2007. It’s human nature. We’re not Rain Man…"


He must be smokin' crack, because I sure as hell can remember all of my play throughs and what happened in them. It doesn't take any special capabilities or disabilities to know the story of your own characters.
This is just one more reason why I (and quite a few others) fear that ME3 will be a pile of doodoo that's nothing but pew pew pew pew slice pew!

Modifié par Sunnie22, 10 août 2011 - 12:48 .


#311
mopotter

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I'm going to hope for the best and expect the worst. I've ordered it and I'm looking forward to playing it, but that being said, how ME3 turns out in relationship to the first two, will affect whether or not I buy future games and I'm not sure they get that part of it. Or they are going after a different audience and with all of the shooter choices out there, not sure being one of many is that great of an idea.

I agree with the op. Yes, I'm concerned and hoping they don't throw their original fans out when trying to bring in new ones.

#312
Il Divo

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Meh, Bioware was in over their heads when they came up with this crazy idea of a choices with consequences trilogy. And now, we're reached the final act. Obviously, I want my every little choice to have galaxy-reaching consequences. But as long as most things I care about are addressedin an acceptable manner (Wrex on Tuchanka, for example) and the main plot itself is emotional/engaging, I'll be fine.

Choices with consequences will simply be a minor detail that could have been better realized.

#313
Iakus

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KotorEffect3 wrote...

They could and they probably eventualy will.  I remember in interviews leading up to ME 2 they would still plug ME 1 a little bit but at the same time they wanted to ME 2 to sell itself on it's own merits.  I think that is what they are doing with ME 3 right now trying to sell it on it's own merits.  Besides do you or I really need to be marketed to?  I can't speak for you but I know I will be getting ME 3 unless some unforseen crisis happens in my life on the day of release.  I don't need to be marketed to.   While I do agree with you, I can see why they are taking the approach they are.


Odd, The interviews and such I recall for ME2 jept talking about how awful, terrible, badwrongunfun ME1 was in comparison to ME2, how this time they got it right.  Forget selling it on its own merits, they seemed downright ashamed of ME1, that it was just a practice run or something.  

Can't speak for you , but me, yes I need to be marketed to.  At least to get it right away.  I'm one of those "haters" who think ME2 was a big step back in every way but technologically.  I think Dragon Age 2 looks good compared to ME2.

#314
Iakus

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Sunnie22 wrote...

  David Silverman wrote:

Mass Effect came out almost eight years ago – you’re not going to remember all the details from when you played that game, right? Even I can’t recall everything that happened to me when that came out in 2007. It’s human nature. We’re not Rain Man…"


He must be smokin' crack, because I sure as hell can remember all of my play throughs and what happened in them. It doesn't take any special capabilities or disabilities to know the story of your own characters.
This is just one more reason why I (and quite a few others) fear that ME3 will be a pile of doodoo that's nothing but pew pew pew pew slice pew!


Unless my math is off, he seems to think KOTOR was Mass Effect 1...

#315
Jaron Oberyn

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Il Divo wrote...

Meh, Bioware was in over their heads when they came up with this crazy idea of a choices with consequences trilogy. And now, we're reached the final act. Obviously, I want my every little choice to have galaxy-reaching consequences. But as long as most things I care about are addressedin an acceptable manner (Wrex on Tuchanka, for example) and the main plot itself is emotional/engaging, I'll be fine.

Choices with consequences will simply be a minor detail that could have been better realized.


For once, I can agree with you. I'd love to see different consequences based on my decisions, since it adds to replay value. But instead in ME2 we just had emails. I still enjoyed the game for what it was, but I felt that it could have been so much better. But ultimately it's about the story, and given the fact that the story will be more like ME1, I can get over it if I get a few emails.


-Polite

#316
RocketManSR2

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Here's some food for thought. How many of us would have bought the first ME if we had been told the truth about our "tough choices" by marketing? "You'll get some great emails and, if you're lucky, brief dialog and cameos!"

Modifié par RocketManSR2, 10 août 2011 - 01:04 .


#317
slimgrin

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I don't think the lore is so deep or complex that they couldn't make ME3 accessible yet still true to the previous games. The fact they are bringing back squaddies from ME1 is encouraging to me.

One thing I hope they don't do is constantly try to bring new players up to date via thinly veiled info drops during cutscenes. Players should have to read the codex if they want to be brought up to speed.

Modifié par slimgrin, 10 août 2011 - 01:04 .


#318
Iakus

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Il Divo wrote...

Meh, Bioware was in over their heads when they came up with this crazy idea of a choices with consequences trilogy. And now, we're reached the final act. Obviously, I want my every little choice to have galaxy-reaching consequences. But as long as most things I care about are addressedin an acceptable manner (Wrex on Tuchanka, for example) and the main plot itself is emotional/engaging, I'll be fine.

Choices with consequences will simply be a minor detail that could have been better realized.


Meh, as long as it HAS a main plot this time I'll be... well, content.

But I'm seriously disillusioned about the whole imported saves concept.  That will no longer be a selling point for me.

#319
Sunnie

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iakus wrote...

Sunnie22 wrote...

  David Silverman wrote:

Mass Effect came out almost eight years ago – you’re not going to remember all the details from when you played that game, right? Even I can’t recall everything that happened to me when that came out in 2007. It’s human nature. We’re not Rain Man…"


He must be smokin' crack, because I sure as hell can remember all of my play throughs and what happened in them. It doesn't take any special capabilities or disabilities to know the story of your own characters.
This is just one more reason why I (and quite a few others) fear that ME3 will be a pile of doodoo that's nothing but pew pew pew pew slice pew!


Unless my math is off, he seems to think KOTOR was Mass Effect 1...


It (ME) was released for the 360 in November 2007, Pc version was released in May 2008.

#320
Chuvvy

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They said it with ME2 aswell. They say it with all sequels, if a games a sequel, you can bet your ass you'll here "It's really the best place to enter the franchise." multiple times.

#321
KotorEffect3

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iakus wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

They could and they probably eventualy will.  I remember in interviews leading up to ME 2 they would still plug ME 1 a little bit but at the same time they wanted to ME 2 to sell itself on it's own merits.  I think that is what they are doing with ME 3 right now trying to sell it on it's own merits.  Besides do you or I really need to be marketed to?  I can't speak for you but I know I will be getting ME 3 unless some unforseen crisis happens in my life on the day of release.  I don't need to be marketed to.   While I do agree with you, I can see why they are taking the approach they are.


Odd, The interviews and such I recall for ME2 jept talking about how awful, terrible, badwrongunfun ME1 was in comparison to ME2, how this time they got it right.  Forget selling it on its own merits, they seemed downright ashamed of ME1, that it was just a practice run or something.  

Can't speak for you , but me, yes I need to be marketed to.  At least to get it right away.  I'm one of those "haters" who think ME2 was a big step back in every way but technologically.  I think Dragon Age 2 looks good compared to ME2.


Well they are always going to say their new game is better than their old one because at this point if they havn't convinced you to get their old one by now you probably aren't getting it and they want to convince you that their new one is worth getting so of course they are going to say how they improved upon it.  As far as your opinion of ME 2 goes I find it mindboggling  since I find the game to be superior overall to the first one (I still love and play the first one) but nothing I say will change your mind about it just like nothing you say will change my mind about it.

#322
KingDan97

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http://t0.gstatic.co...u45eQ2bh2vxryQg
Look, Casey himself has said time and time again that Mass Effect 3 is a good entry point. This doesn't mean they're going to be ignoring players, or descisions, or that they're going to retcon everything you've ever done. All this means is that you don't need to sink 100+ hours of your life on games that came out years ago to enjoy this one.

Every entry in every game series needs to be approachable. I've said this before in a few other threads. It's the assumption that comes with the medium. You could jump into Fallout: New Vegas without picking up the other 5, you could hop right into any of the Assassin's Creed games, or Halo or any CoD. This can be copy pasted for numerous other series on consoles, just off the top of my head there's Elder Scrolls, Dragon Age, Diablo, Warcraft, Starcraft, Pokemon, Devil May Cry, Mario, Banjo Kazooie and Tomb Raider.

That doesn't mean I think Mass Effect is the same but it's an assumption of a medium. When you go to a movie sequel you don't mind seeing the previous ones because it's maybe 5 hours out of your life and you can likely find them all on Netflix. When you want to get into a book series you know you need to read the older ones because it's all a connected thread. The issue is that when you see a game with a number on the end it's a much smaller fear that you'll need to know what's happened because games with strong stories are even at this stage far and few between.

Because of this known cultural assumption of gaming they need to prepare for new players, and they need the new players to know that they're not being treated like diseased rats just because they don't want to drop the price of a new game on all of the old games in the series and the optional content. The truth of those statements adds up to this, if you haven't played before we have a story device to bring you up to speed. In this case that story device is another motion comic. Which is also what was referenced when Silverman said that it's hard to remember all of your choices.

I'd also like to note that not everyone has played Mass Effect more than once, not everyone plays it like it's the only game that was ever released. When most people buy a game, they place it once then they put it down and play other things.

These forums are not a majority, you are all the vocal minority and you know why that is? Because most other people move onto other games once they beat them, some stick around to finish off achievements but almost none go ahead and complain about it for years. So yes, most people will have forgotten descisions, most people will have forgotten characters, and Bioware knows that. That doesn't mean they're changing their descisions, it means that they're reminding those who may have forgotten just what they did.

Badpie, you also seriously quoted Silverman out of context, he wasn't saying your romance didn't matter, he was saying that a new player wouldn't need to freak out because they don't have one.

Of course, none of you rabid dogs who've been fueling 13 pages of nothing but vitrol will see any reason anyway, and once Mass Effect 3 is out, I'll likely never bother to even come back to these forums so sure, tear apart every little quote that is put out as though it's the end of the world, becuase clearly you all have been making games for the better part of 20 years.


EDIT: Hell, look at the article, it's incredibly biased, it's the Fox News of gaming, and every studio that isn't catering the incredibly specific niche that the writers like.

Modifié par KingDan97, 10 août 2011 - 01:26 .


#323
Iakus

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Sunnie22 wrote...

iakus wrote...

Sunnie22 wrote...

  David Silverman wrote:

Mass Effect came out almost eight years ago – you’re not going to remember all the details from when you played that game, right? Even I can’t recall everything that happened to me when that came out in 2007. It’s human nature. We’re not Rain Man…"


He must be smokin' crack, because I sure as hell can remember all of my play throughs and what happened in them. It doesn't take any special capabilities or disabilities to know the story of your own characters.
This is just one more reason why I (and quite a few others) fear that ME3 will be a pile of doodoo that's nothing but pew pew pew pew slice pew!


Unless my math is off, he seems to think KOTOR was Mass Effect 1...


It (ME) was released for the 360 in November 2007, Pc version was released in May 2008.


I was referring to the eight years ago bit.  Knights of the Old Republic was released during the holidaies of 2003, almost eight years ago :D

#324
The Twilight God

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RocketManSR2 wrote...

Here's some food for thought. How many of us would have bought the first ME if we had been told the truth about our "tough choices" by marketing? "You'll get some great emails and, if you're lucky, brief dialog and cameos!"


All of us. Nobody bought it because of decisions. They bought it because it looked like a cool game.

#325
Iakus

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KotorEffect3 wrote...

Well they are always going to say their new game is better than their old one because at this point if they havn't convinced you to get their old one by now you probably aren't getting it and they want to convince you that their new one is worth getting so of course they are going to say how they improved upon it.  As far as your opinion of ME 2 goes I find it mindboggling  since I find the game to be superior overall to the first one (I still love and play the first one) but nothing I say will change your mind about it just like nothing you say will change my mind about it.


Understandable, but I think they took it to a whole new level with Mass Effect.  With ME2, they almost seemed ashamed of its predecessor.

AS for my thoughts on ME2; no, don't bother to try.  Il Divo can tell you how many threads I went through on the ME2 forum detailing (at length) my problems with ME2.  Fortunately, some of the stuff I've been reading about on teh Twitter thread gives me hope that some of the problems I had will be addressed.

Which is part of the problem:  These are on personal Twitter accounts.  Not official marketing.  All I see is another space-themed shooter wihich happens to star Commander Shepard, main charaqcter of the first two Mass Effect games (coincidentally)