37 réponses à ce sujet

[Mike3207]

Jedimaster88 wrote...

Last Darkness wrote...

Jedimaster88 wrote...

You´re right. I havent read the novels yet. I plan to buy them, once I get to move to my apartment. Who knows what happens after that. Maybe I should try to spare him once. I just havent found enough willpower for that yet. I´ve only watched some of his dialogue from youtube video. My image of the wardens is paint a bit by the things you hear about them and from some of the wardens you meet. Almost everyone of them gave me the sort of "good guy" image, although there are some black sheeps in that group.

Read the Novels, it fills in alot of the picture.

The Stolen Throne fills in alot of characters backstorys.

While The Calling does alot of Warden and some mage history.

For Wardens look more to Duncan and Riordan's examples in game, they try to do whats best. Thats not to say whats right.   You will likly love it. Also both are on audio books, Im re-listening to Stolen Throne at work this week myself.

Riordan also has his good words: "Be firm in your beliefs and be as loyal as you can to your brothers even knowing you may share their fate.". Not sure if he said it like that. Its disturbing that if Anora orders Alistairs execution, he doesnt do a single thing to save him. No words, no action, nothing. What was that all talk about loyalty to your brothers just some time ago?

Loyalty is a two-way street. If Alistair had shown loyalty to the Warden on the subject of showing mercy to Loghain after the duel, he wouldn't be losing his head.That and putting in a claim to the throne is the reason it happens. It's worth noting that an unhardened Alistair that renounces his claim to the throne will not be executed by Anora, even if he kills Loghain. I really don't think there's a lot Riordan or Eamon can do, not when his fellow Warden says it best for Ferelden to execute him.

if Alistair is spared, rebellions will be raised in his name. I don't know if you have played DA2, but drunk Alistair is approached by Teagan about returning to Ferelden in the 2nd act. it seems very suspicious to me that Eamon's brother would approach Alistair about returning to Ferelden, even if he has renounced his claim to the throne. I rather suspect Eamon will try and use Alistair to start a rebellion against Anora.

I really felt bad my last playthrough about executing Alistair, but he does lay in a claim to the throne. The same thing happens to Harrowmont if you make Bhelen King. Strong rulers eliminate the competition to avoid future rebellions.

Modifié par Mike Smith, 12 août 2011 - 03:54 .

[Jedimaster88]

Mike Smith wrote...

Jedimaster88 wrote...

Last Darkness wrote...

Jedimaster88 wrote...

You´re right. I havent read the novels yet. I plan to buy them, once I get to move to my apartment. Who knows what happens after that. Maybe I should try to spare him once. I just havent found enough willpower for that yet. I´ve only watched some of his dialogue from youtube video. My image of the wardens is paint a bit by the things you hear about them and from some of the wardens you meet. Almost everyone of them gave me the sort of "good guy" image, although there are some black sheeps in that group.

Read the Novels, it fills in alot of the picture.

The Stolen Throne fills in alot of characters backstorys.

While The Calling does alot of Warden and some mage history.

For Wardens look more to Duncan and Riordan's examples in game, they try to do whats best. Thats not to say whats right.   You will likly love it. Also both are on audio books, Im re-listening to Stolen Throne at work this week myself.

Riordan also has his good words: "Be firm in your beliefs and be as loyal as you can to your brothers even knowing you may share their fate.". Not sure if he said it like that. Its disturbing that if Anora orders Alistairs execution, he doesnt do a single thing to save him. No words, no action, nothing. What was that all talk about loyalty to your brothers just some time ago?

Loyalty is a two-way street. If Alistair had shown loyalty to the Warden on the subject of showing mercy to Loghain after the duel, he wouldn't be losing his head.That and putting in a claim to the throne is the reason it happens. It's worth noting that an unhardened Alistair that renounces his claim to the throne will not be executed by Anora, even if he kills Loghain. I really don't think there's a lot Riordan or Eamon can do, not when his fellow Warden says it best for Ferelden to execute him.

if Alistair is spared, rebellions will be raised in his name. I don't know if you have played DA2, but drunk Alistair is approached by Teagan about returning to Ferelden in the 2nd act. it seems very suspicious to me that Eamon's brother would approach Alistair about returning to Ferelden, even if he has renounced his claim to the throne. I rather suspect Eamon will try and use Alistair to start a rebellion against Anora.

I really felt bad my last playthrough about executing Alistair, but he does lay in a claim to the throne. The same thing happens to Harrowmont if you make Bhelen King. Strong rulers eliminate the competition to avoid future rebellions.

There is always another way. Anora could have tried to reason. Why must they always offer the sword first? To me thats more like an act of a tyrant. Riordan could have just told the damn truth instead of talking in riddles "...compelling reasons...". By telling the truth, Alistair might have been more accepting. To execute Alistair just because he is Marics son and because he wants revenge for all the sh** they´ve been forced to swallow feels very wrong to me personally. Did anora consider what happens if her father doesnt survive the joining and she executes alistair before that happens. That way there would be even less grey wardens than before. Great thinking there<_<. That precious throne doesnt mean a thing if Ferelden gets destroyed by the blight because she decided to execute one of the few people able to stop it all so she could have it all for herself. Deal with the darkspawn first and worry about all that political stuff later if you must.

[Mike3207]

Jedimaster88 wrote...

Mike Smith wrote...

Jedimaster88 wrote...

Last Darkness wrote...

Jedimaster88 wrote...

You´re right. I havent read the novels yet. I plan to buy them, once I get to move to my apartment. Who knows what happens after that. Maybe I should try to spare him once. I just havent found enough willpower for that yet. I´ve only watched some of his dialogue from youtube video. My image of the wardens is paint a bit by the things you hear about them and from some of the wardens you meet. Almost everyone of them gave me the sort of "good guy" image, although there are some black sheeps in that group.

Read the Novels, it fills in alot of the picture.

The Stolen Throne fills in alot of characters backstorys.

While The Calling does alot of Warden and some mage history.

For Wardens look more to Duncan and Riordan's examples in game, they try to do whats best. Thats not to say whats right.   You will likly love it. Also both are on audio books, Im re-listening to Stolen Throne at work this week myself.

Riordan also has his good words: "Be firm in your beliefs and be as loyal as you can to your brothers even knowing you may share their fate.". Not sure if he said it like that. Its disturbing that if Anora orders Alistairs execution, he doesnt do a single thing to save him. No words, no action, nothing. What was that all talk about loyalty to your brothers just some time ago?

Loyalty is a two-way street. If Alistair had shown loyalty to the Warden on the subject of showing mercy to Loghain after the duel, he wouldn't be losing his head.That and putting in a claim to the throne is the reason it happens. It's worth noting that an unhardened Alistair that renounces his claim to the throne will not be executed by Anora, even if he kills Loghain. I really don't think there's a lot Riordan or Eamon can do, not when his fellow Warden says it best for Ferelden to execute him.

if Alistair is spared, rebellions will be raised in his name. I don't know if you have played DA2, but drunk Alistair is approached by Teagan about returning to Ferelden in the 2nd act. it seems very suspicious to me that Eamon's brother would approach Alistair about returning to Ferelden, even if he has renounced his claim to the throne. I rather suspect Eamon will try and use Alistair to start a rebellion against Anora.

I really felt bad my last playthrough about executing Alistair, but he does lay in a claim to the throne. The same thing happens to Harrowmont if you make Bhelen King. Strong rulers eliminate the competition to avoid future rebellions.

There is always another way. Anora could have tried to reason. Why must they always offer the sword first? To me thats more like an act of a tyrant. Riordan could have just told the damn truth instead of talking in riddles "...compelling reasons...". By telling the truth, Alistair might have been more accepting. To execute Alistair just because he is Marics son and because he wants revenge for all the sh** they´ve been forced to swallow feels very wrong to me personally. Did anora consider what happens if her father doesnt survive the joining and she executes alistair before that happens. That way there would be even less grey wardens than before. Great thinking there<_<. That precious throne doesnt mean a thing if Ferelden gets destroyed by the blight because she decided to execute one of the few people able to stop it all so she could have it all for herself. Deal with the darkspawn first and worry about all that political stuff later if you must.

It's really not that he gets executed for being Maric's son. Anora will spare him if he kills her father, yet doesn't lay in a claim to the throne. It's the fact that he does bring in the prospect of taking the throne. You make a good point, however that she should probably wait until after the Joining to execute him. I'm not really sure at what point he is executed though. We do see his box of things after Loghain survives the Joining, so it is conceivable she holds off on the execution until after her father survives. There might be a bit of overkill, but not by very much. In the end, it's really the PC's choice. You get 1 chance with hardened Alistair to spare his life, and 2 with unhardened. He won't get executed if you don't want him to be.

[Jedimaster88]

Mike Smith wrote...

Jedimaster88 wrote...

Mike Smith wrote...

Jedimaster88 wrote...

Last Darkness wrote...

Jedimaster88 wrote...

You´re right. I havent read the novels yet. I plan to buy them, once I get to move to my apartment. Who knows what happens after that. Maybe I should try to spare him once. I just havent found enough willpower for that yet. I´ve only watched some of his dialogue from youtube video. My image of the wardens is paint a bit by the things you hear about them and from some of the wardens you meet. Almost everyone of them gave me the sort of "good guy" image, although there are some black sheeps in that group.

Read the Novels, it fills in alot of the picture.

The Stolen Throne fills in alot of characters backstorys.

While The Calling does alot of Warden and some mage history.

For Wardens look more to Duncan and Riordan's examples in game, they try to do whats best. Thats not to say whats right.   You will likly love it. Also both are on audio books, Im re-listening to Stolen Throne at work this week myself.

Riordan also has his good words: "Be firm in your beliefs and be as loyal as you can to your brothers even knowing you may share their fate.". Not sure if he said it like that. Its disturbing that if Anora orders Alistairs execution, he doesnt do a single thing to save him. No words, no action, nothing. What was that all talk about loyalty to your brothers just some time ago?

Loyalty is a two-way street. If Alistair had shown loyalty to the Warden on the subject of showing mercy to Loghain after the duel, he wouldn't be losing his head.That and putting in a claim to the throne is the reason it happens. It's worth noting that an unhardened Alistair that renounces his claim to the throne will not be executed by Anora, even if he kills Loghain. I really don't think there's a lot Riordan or Eamon can do, not when his fellow Warden says it best for Ferelden to execute him.

if Alistair is spared, rebellions will be raised in his name. I don't know if you have played DA2, but drunk Alistair is approached by Teagan about returning to Ferelden in the 2nd act. it seems very suspicious to me that Eamon's brother would approach Alistair about returning to Ferelden, even if he has renounced his claim to the throne. I rather suspect Eamon will try and use Alistair to start a rebellion against Anora.

I really felt bad my last playthrough about executing Alistair, but he does lay in a claim to the throne. The same thing happens to Harrowmont if you make Bhelen King. Strong rulers eliminate the competition to avoid future rebellions.

There is always another way. Anora could have tried to reason. Why must they always offer the sword first? To me thats more like an act of a tyrant. Riordan could have just told the damn truth instead of talking in riddles "...compelling reasons...". By telling the truth, Alistair might have been more accepting. To execute Alistair just because he is Marics son and because he wants revenge for all the sh** they´ve been forced to swallow feels very wrong to me personally. Did anora consider what happens if her father doesnt survive the joining and she executes alistair before that happens. That way there would be even less grey wardens than before. Great thinking there<_<. That precious throne doesnt mean a thing if Ferelden gets destroyed by the blight because she decided to execute one of the few people able to stop it all so she could have it all for herself. Deal with the darkspawn first and worry about all that political stuff later if you must.

It's really not that he gets executed for being Maric's son. Anora will spare him if he kills her father, yet doesn't lay in a claim to the throne. It's the fact that he does bring in the prospect of taking the throne. You make a good point, however that she should probably wait until after the Joining to execute him. I'm not really sure at what point he is executed though. We do see his box of things after Loghain survives the Joining, so it is conceivable she holds off on the execution until after her father survives. There might be a bit of overkill, but not by very much. In the end, it's really the PC's choice. You get 1 chance with hardened Alistair to spare his life, and 2 with unhardened. He won't get executed if you don't want him to be.

True. Its up to us as players to decide who deserves what etc. The landsmeet is just one of the many situations where you have two choises and neither of them are exactly the perfect solution for the situation. You choose the less of two evils. One way or another, someone WILL be disappointed at the landsmeet.

[Last Darkness]

Jedimaster88 wrote...

True. Its up to us as players to decide who deserves what etc. The landsmeet is just one of the many situations where you have two choises and neither of them are exactly the perfect solution for the situation. You choose the less of two evils. One way or another, someone WILL be disappointed at the landsmeet.

Indeed, Dragon Age is not a "Happy Ending for everyone" kind of fantasy game. You have to make deicisions and choices that will often screw one person or group over or another. I find it funny how alot of people playing take everything thats said as the truth and no one is manipulating or lying.

Too many people playing the game are not used to this and mix personal bias and comparisons to whats acceptable in their own society in order to relate to one thats nothing like theirs.

This is why we end up with people putting Harrowmont on the Throne and think its the good choice even though it completly ruins the Dwarves and Bhelens actions are perfectly acceptable in Dwarf society.

[Ulicus]

If Bhelen's actions were perfectly acceptable in dwarven society, he wouldn't need to hide them. I can believe he's the better king without whitewashing him in the process.

Perfectly common in dwarven society, on the other hand? Sure.

Modifié par Ulicus, 13 août 2011 - 09:16 .

[Wulfram]

Publically murdering the last Theirin is a really stupid way to prevent future rebellions.

[Mike3207]

Wulfram wrote...

Publically murdering the last Theirin is a really stupid way to prevent future rebellions.

It prevents future Theirin rebellions, which is what it is supposed to do. Alistair's codex entry makes it clear the Theirin line ends if Alistair is executed. It's funny how there's not all this handwringing about Bhelen publicly arresting Harrowmont and sentencing him to death. As for any other rebellions, well there's always a chance for rebellion.

It's really a option that is meant for the Human Noble married to Anora scenario. If you're running a solo Anora scenario, well there will be  new ruler once she dies. There's a pretty good chance there will be civil war after her reign is up unless she chooses a successor to folow her.

It makes a great deal of sense for a Cousland married to Anora to let her execute Alistair, publicly or not. You're looking to start a new royal line between the Cousland and Mac Tirs and a Theirin would always be a threat to that. Even if Alistair is exiled and swears a oath to renounce the throne for himself and his heirs, any future offspring always have the option to countermand that oath and take up a claim to the throne. The only way to end a Theirin claim to the throne is to end the line.

[Wulfram]

Mike Smith wrote...

As for any other rebellions, well there's always a chance for rebellion.

There's a far greater chance of rebellion if you've made all your most powerful vassals angry and fearful of you, while still lacking the power to intimidate them.

Let's say you're Arl Eamon in this scenario

1.  You're pissed off with Anora
2.  Anora has grounds to see you as a threat - you've got a claim to the throne, and you rallied Fereldan against her rulership before
3.  Anora murders people she sees as a threat.

In this situation you basically have no choice but to rebel.

Bhelen murdering Harrowmont is stupid too.  Harrowmont is in no position to oppose Bhelen after the election anyway, since he's from a minor house, only rose to prominence based on the support of Bhelen's father - and based his whole claim to the throne on the rights of the assembly which has sided against him.  All he does is make people more determined to fight to the death rather than submit, since they gain nothing by submission.

But Bhelen has the judgement and intelligence of a radish, and the subtlety of a drunken elephant, so his behaviour is to be expected.

[Mike3207]

Wulfram wrote...

Mike Smith wrote...

As for any other rebellions, well there's always a chance for rebellion.

There's a far greater chance of rebellion if you've made all your most powerful vassals angry and fearful of you, while still lacking the power to intimidate them.

Let's say you're Arl Eamon in this scenario

1.  You're pissed off with Anora
2.  Anora has grounds to see you as a threat - you've got a claim to the throne, and you rallied Fereldan against her rulership before
3.  Anora murders people she sees as a threat.

In this situation you basically have no choice but to rebel.

Bhelen murdering Harrowmont is stupid too.  Harrowmont is in no position to oppose Bhelen after the election anyway, since he's from a minor house, only rose to prominence based on the support of Bhelen's father - and based his whole claim to the throne on the rights of the assembly which has sided against him.  All he does is make people more determined to fight to the death rather than submit, since they gain nothing by submission.

But Bhelen has the judgement and intelligence of a radish, and the subtlety of a drunken elephant, so his behaviour is to be expected.

First off, I doubt Eamon can take the throne. His son is a mage, so his family won't be a candidate for the throne. Anora also doesn't hold grudges-she refuses to execute Alistair if he kills her father as long as he renounces the throne. She and Eamon will never be friends, but they also won't be killing each other. They're both Fereldan patriots, and they want what is best for Ferelden.They'll be political enemies, but that's as far as it will go.

Alistair is executed for 2 reasons-he brings up taking the throne in the midst of civil war and a Blight, and Anora believes he will continue the civil war if not dealt with. it would be a real risk to let him go however. He leaves under any circumstances, and who knows what he will do with his freedom. It's worth noting that Eamon says in Castle Redcliffe if you release Alistair that it might have been better for Fereldan  if you had let Anora execute him.
Eamon worries about the possibility of the civil war continuing if you spare Alistair as much as Anora does. You also don't get any comment from the nobles about executing Alistair, so i imagine all of them understood the need for a united Ferelden.

[Last Darkness]

If you read the Novels you will find out whats so important about the Theirin line, and why as long as one exists they can always claim the throne.

Matter of fact the entire first book is about Maric and his Mothers Rebellion against Orlais and other subtle info. (You can get a new respect for Loghain, and also see why you would be inclined to always equip Alistair with Marics sword and shield and cailens armor...)


*EDIT: Forgot to add, there are audio books availble. They work well to listen too at work or when playing a MMO mindlessly grinding.

Modifié par Last Darkness, 14 août 2011 - 06:04 .

[Wulfram]

Mike Smith wrote...

First off, I doubt Eamon can take the throne. His son is a mage, so his family won't be a candidate for the throne. Anora also doesn't hold grudges-she refuses to execute Alistair if he kills her father as long as he renounces the throne. She and Eamon will never be friends, but they also won't be killing each other. They're both Fereldan patriots, and they want what is best for Ferelden.They'll be political enemies, but that's as far as it will go.

Eamon is unlikely to think having a murderous tyrant on the throne is what is best for Fereldan.  Eamon is a far greater threat than an untried boy like Alistair.  And Anora's patriotism mostly consists of doing whatever she can to secure herself on the throne.

[Mike3207]

Wulfram wrote...

Mike Smith wrote...

First off, I doubt Eamon can take the throne. His son is a mage, so his family won't be a candidate for the throne. Anora also doesn't hold grudges-she refuses to execute Alistair if he kills her father as long as he renounces the throne. She and Eamon will never be friends, but they also won't be killing each other. They're both Fereldan patriots, and they want what is best for Ferelden.They'll be political enemies, but that's as far as it will go.

Eamon is unlikely to think having a murderous tyrant on the throne is what is best for Fereldan.  Eamon is a far greater threat than an untried boy like Alistair.  And Anora's patriotism mostly consists of doing whatever she can to secure herself on the throne.

She's not a muderous tyrant-she only executes Alistair under a couple of conditions.

1. Her father is still alive-she won't kill him if Loghain dies at the Landsmeet.

2. Alistair puts in a claim to the throne and you make Anora Queen.

As for Eamon, well they'll always be political rivals. I haven't done Witch Hunt, but I hear if Redcliffe isn't destroyed by the Undead that the nobles will be turning to Eamon after 2-3 years. Anora seeks to make a lot of changes, and I imagine the nobles who aren't in favor of change will naturally turn to Eamon. I avoided this in my playthrough by letting the undead destroy Redcliffe-I just don't like Eamon very much.

She wlll do what is necessary to gain the throne, but I don't blame her. She's done a good job of ruling Ferelden for 5 years, and has both the support of the common people and the nobles. I don't think I'd give the throne to an untried boy that doesn't want the throne either. I don't think Eamon would be much of a threat to Anora-Hero of Ferelden alliance, but it might be a different scenario with solo Anora. I imagine we'll disagree on Anora and Eamon's patriotism-they both want what is best for Ferelden, but the things they want to accompolish are much different.

Modifié par Mike Smith, 14 août 2011 - 06:11 .