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[Darius Vir]

So, the Chant of Light- and other more secondary sources- seem to portray the events surrounding the Magisters' trip to the Black City as all happening very quickly.

We hear that the Magisters are thrown back to Thedas, head underground, start digging, find Dumat, and Blight's on!  All this seems to happen rapidly, one right after the other.

How accurate of an assessment is this?  Do we have any indication that this isn't the case?  I ask because if there were a delay between any of these events, it sort of gives more or less credence to different depictions of the way the Blight started.  

I'm just thinking of DAO's introduction as I right this, which describes the "Dwarven kingdoms" as being the first to get hit.  Was there an extended conflict solely between the dwarves and darkspawn before the latter found Dumat or headed to the surface? 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The dwarves describe that when they first encountered darkspawn they were considered just a nuisance for a time. But they also acknowledge they were searching for the Old Gods at the time. I think the Memories say they soon found Dumat, overwhelmed the dwarves and the spread to the surface. My guess would be that the magisters spread the taint to some of the dwarves or humans and that caused the broodmothers to be born and the rest of the darkspawn to begin swelling in numbers. I don't think that the human and dwarven accounts of the First Blight radically diverge anywhere except regarding the origin of the darkspawn. Interestingly enough, Caradin's journal seems to indicate he blames the humans for the arrival of the darkspawn, so perhaps he found out about the darkspawn magisters at some point?

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 09 août 2011 - 05:00 .

[TEWR]

Not accurate at all. We have no idea how many Magisters there were, but obviously there wouldn't have been enough to make a Darkspawn army that destroyed much of Tevinter

Second, the Magisters invaded the Black City 2000 years ago, not 1000. That the Chantry got the invading part right but not the timeline gives the Chant a single grain of truth.

Third, they were the first Awakened Darkspawn, who cannot hear the call of the Old Gods

Fourth, the Dwarves fought Genlocks long before humanity ever encountered the Darkspawn

Fifth, the Awakened Darkspawn couldn't have known how to make a broodmother, and I don't see why they would want to make one. I believe it's instinct that makes the Darkspawn make a broodmother, as the process is painful to both the body, mind, and spirit

[whykikyouwhy]

I don't recall the source, but on another thread, there was mention that the invasion of the golden city was conducted by 5 magisters. I'm inclined to say there was a picture in a book in-game.

Modifié par whykikyouwhy, 09 août 2011 - 05:12 .

[Herr Uhl]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I don't recall the source, but on another thread, there was mention that the invasion of the golden city was conducted by 5 magisters. I'm inclined to say there was a picture in a book in-game.

You mean the  intro short?

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 09 août 2011 - 05:18 .

[Gespenst]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Second, the Magisters invaded the Black City 2000 years ago, not 1000. That the Chantry got the invading part right but not the timeline gives the Chant a single grain of truth

Where'd you get that? As far as I can tell the Magisters invaded the Golden City in 800TE (225 years before Andraste died - 395 years before the chantry was founded and 1335 years before Varric tells Hawke's story)

[whykikyouwhy]

@Herr Uhl - That would be it, yes (and thanks). This could be pure coincidence, and really, a tangential detail, but there seems to be 5 main "towers" to the city as well.

[Gespenst]

Filament wrote...

Corypheus says it's been 2000 years.

Does he? He asked me how long it's been about seven times but he never told me...

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Watching the trailer, you can hear someone say "Two thousand years. The magic holds." It think it was it Larius.

I don't think it matters though, because in the game the wardens specifically say that he was captured sometime just after the First Blight. Since we have a more specific record of when it ended, that means he was captured 1200 years ago.

If Larius said 2000 years ago in game I'm more inclined to think it's a goof or a mistake rather than Bioware radically restructuring their timeline.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 09 août 2011 - 06:25 .

[MichaelFinnegan]

Darius Vir wrote...

So, the Chant of Light- and other more secondary sources- seem to portray the events surrounding the Magisters' trip to the Black City as all happening very quickly.

I'd say forget about the Chant of Light as a source. Brother Genitivi, a Chantry scholar, says this in the codex entry First Blight, Chapter 2:
"People today have little concept of the consequences of the second sin. Oh, believe me when I say that when asked, pious, Chantry-going folk will curse the use of foul magic, spitting and snapping their fingers-but none live today who actually remember the horror that was unleashed so very long ago. Whatever records might have existed regrettably did not survive the chaos and ignorance that was to follow. We have only the tales of survivors handed down through the murky ages and the dogma of the Chantry to instruct us, and that is precious little indeed."

Perhaps that is as accurate a thing as we're going to get.

We hear that the Magisters are thrown back to Thedas, head underground, start digging, find Dumat, and Blight's on!  All this seems to happen rapidly, one right after the other.

Based on what has been said by David Gaider, I think we should not look at the magisters who entered the Golden/Black City as darkspawn. What we know of today comes actually from word of mouth down the ages, I'm guessing. It's never been clear what happened between the time those magisters breached the said City and the start of the Blight. If we look at the dwarven records, they seem to suggest that the darkspawn first started appearing underground. And we know that the darkspawn actually are born out of ghouls. So, the magisters brought back the taint somehow, ghouls were created, including broodmothers. Then those broodmothers started giving rise to darkspawn. And this might have taken a very long time. Not to mention that the darkspawn search for their Old Gods takes forever, centuries perhaps.

How accurate of an assessment is this?  Do we have any indication that this isn't the case?  I ask because if there were a delay between any of these events, it sort of gives more or less credence to different depictions of the way the Blight started.

If you search for "Ages" in Dragon Age Wiki, the Chantry Calandar, which perhaps Brother Genitivi, a Chantry scholar, considers as Chantry dogma, you'll notice some timelines. 800TE is the year when the magisters first opened the gates to the Golden City. And 890TE is when the Grey Warden order was first formed. So within 90 years, the corruption was perhaps unleashed and men on the surface had become "veterans" in fighting darkspawn.

Unless somone thinks that somehow the first darkspawn were "spawned" rather rapidly (I don't know how many years it takes to form a sizable darkspawn horde for invation), somehow they attacked and felled a few dwarven kingdoms, they use the Deep Roads network to spread to the surface, and later somehow they were being fought by men who had become "veterans" in fighting them, and further that someone believes all of this happened within 90 years, it could be said that the Chantry calandar could have a few holes in it.

I'm just thinking of DAO's introduction as I right this, which describes the "Dwarven kingdoms" as being the first to get hit.  Was there an extended conflict solely between the dwarves and darkspawn before the latter found Dumat or headed to the surface?

No, actually the Blight began after the Archdemon (in this case Dumat) was freed. Let us not forget that the darkspwan are actually a mindless bunch, and what unites them and gives them a purpose is supposedly the Archdemon itself. And before the Archdemon is found, their sole purpose is to increase in numbers, while searching for the Old God. The dwarven kingdoms were therefore hit after Dumat was freed.

EDIT: Paragraph formatting fixed. And a few details corrected/added.

Modifié par MichaelFinnegan, 09 août 2011 - 06:28 .

[Torax]

Should also point out that there is a total 200 year gap between the entrance into the Golden City and when the First blight was considered ended. It was quite a while after the Dark Spawn had arrived and began invading the deep roads before The Anvil was even made for the Golems during the First Blight. Most Blights take over almost all of Thedas and take generations upon generations to defeat and push back. How it's portrayed in Origins is a fluke basically plus the true devastation that a blight is supposed exhibit is not really practical to portray to the player.

Regardless multiple times TEWR has tried to claim the dwarves were fighting them long before. I've never seen evidence to his so seems a wish for something to be that isn't necessarily true. It took 140 years of attacks from the Darkspawn that was destroying their dwarven kingdoms for Caredon to make the Anvil. 140 years of devastating attacks you may be an assumption to mean they were being attacked before the humans faced them. Half truth lie to think they faced them before the humans. THey were all being attacked though the bulk went to the deep roads to look for Dumat. Then they devastated all of Thedas. Just remember 140 years of attacks killing your kingdoms and forcing you to wall up away can make some historians thinking it was longer and having dealt with it more than humans. Partly true though once darkspawn go to the surface they do put less pressure on the dwarven kingdoms for a while.

[Gespenst]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

If you search for "Ages" in Dragon Age Wiki, the Chantry Calandar, which perhaps Brother Genitivi, a Chantry scholar, considers as Chantry dogma, you'll notice some timelines. 800TE is the year when the  magisters first opened the gates to the Golden City. And 890TE is when the Grey Warden order was first formed. So within 90 years, the corruption was perhaps unleashed and men on the surface had become "veterans" in fighting darkspawn.

And, as a side note, they'd have had to have killed Dumat at least once during that period before they could perform the first joinings.

Modifié par Gespenst, 09 août 2011 - 07:10 .

[Herr Uhl]

Torax wrote...

Regardless multiple times TEWR has tried to claim the dwarves were fighting them long before. I've never seen evidence to his so seems a wish for something to be that isn't necessarily true. It took 140 years of attacks from the Darkspawn that was destroying their dwarven kingdoms for Caredon to make the Anvil. 140 years of devastating attacks you may be an assumption to mean they were being attacked before the humans faced them. Half truth lie to think they faced them before the humans. THey were all being attacked though the bulk went to the deep roads to look for Dumat. Then they devastated all of Thedas. Just remember 140 years of attacks killing your kingdoms and forcing you to wall up away can make some historians thinking it was longer and having dealt with it more than humans. Partly true though once darkspawn go to the surface they do put less pressure on the dwarven kingdoms for a while.

The dwarven codex entry on the matter hints that they fought darkspawn before the first blight though.

At first they were few, easily hunted and slain by our warriors. But in the recesses of the Deep Roads, they grew in numbers and in courage. Our distant thaigs came under attack, and now it was the army, not a few warriors, being sent to deal with the creatures. Victories still came easily, though, and we thought the threat would soon be over.

We were wrong.

This seems to suggest that a change happened and that is likely the emergence of Dumat. The first part describes what could easily have been the tribal "normal" kind of darkspawn that lack the song and any real purpose.

[Torax]

Gespenst wrote...

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

If you search for "Ages" in Dragon Age Wiki, the Chantry Calandar, which perhaps Brother Genitivi, a Chantry scholar, considers as Chantry dogma, you'll notice some timelines. 800TE is the year when the  magisters first opened the gates to the Golden City. And 890TE is when the Grey Warden order was first formed. So within 90 years, the corruption was perhaps unleashed and men on the surface had become "veterans" in fighting darkspawn.

And, as a side note, they'd have had to have killed Dumat at least once during that period before they could perform the first joinings.

Aye I assume there was a ton of trial and error in killing an Old God and finding what happened each time he kept returning to command his forces. Also 50 years after the first wardens were founded was when the Golems joined the dwarven forces to help greatly increasing the strength of the forces against the blight.

[Torax]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Torax wrote...

Regardless multiple times TEWR has tried to claim the dwarves were fighting them long before. I've never seen evidence to his so seems a wish for something to be that isn't necessarily true. It took 140 years of attacks from the Darkspawn that was destroying their dwarven kingdoms for Caredon to make the Anvil. 140 years of devastating attacks you may be an assumption to mean they were being attacked before the humans faced them. Half truth lie to think they faced them before the humans. THey were all being attacked though the bulk went to the deep roads to look for Dumat. Then they devastated all of Thedas. Just remember 140 years of attacks killing your kingdoms and forcing you to wall up away can make some historians thinking it was longer and having dealt with it more than humans. Partly true though once darkspawn go to the surface they do put less pressure on the dwarven kingdoms for a while.

The dwarven codex entry on the matter hints that they fought darkspawn before the first blight though.

At first they were few, easily hunted and slain by our warriors. But in the recesses of the Deep Roads, they grew in numbers and in courage. Our distant thaigs came under attack, and now it was the army, not a few warriors, being sent to deal with the creatures. Victories still came easily, though, and we thought the threat would soon be over.

We were wrong.

This seems to suggest that a change happened and that is likely the emergence of Dumat. The first part describes what could easily have been the tribal "normal" kind of darkspawn that lack the song and any real purpose.

The Dwarven Codex at best supports the fact that the dark spawn and the Magisters likely entered the Golden City in the Deep Roads in the first place. Thus the first darkspawn were there. They lost their thaigs during the first blight. So one believing they were dealing with them first is a half truth. The Darkspawn focused there afterall. That doesn't mean that it predates the Magisters entering the Golden City. That is only if you're trying to read more into what is said.

[Herr Uhl]

Torax wrote...

The Dwarven Codex at best supports the fact that the dark spawn and the Magisters likely entered the Golden City in the Deep Roads in the first place. Thus the first darkspawn were there. They lost their thaigs during the first blight. So one believing they were dealing with them first is a half truth. The Darkspawn focused there afterall. That doesn't mean that it predates the Magisters entering the Golden City. That is only if you're trying to read more into what is said.

Another thing that would seem to suggest that darkspawn predate the magisters is that there were Ogre in the blights before the Qunari came over, and they weren't sighted in Thedas for that whole period (first four blights).

There are three explanations that seem likely for that 1. The Fex were the ones that became Ogres first, 2. Darkspawn exist elsewhere or 3. A contingent of Qunari landed, weren't sighted and then became attacked by darkspawn hundreds of years before the main bulk.

Edit: As a sidenote, explanation number two is my favourite.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 09 août 2011 - 08:01 .

[TEWR]

There's a 200 year timeframe. During the First Blight, the thaigs were lost yes. Which means the Darkspawn could traverse the Deep Roads easily now.


And yet it takes the Darkspawn centuries to find an Old God when they hear the song one sings. that song attracts the Darkspawn and draws them to the Old Gods

Archdemons don't awaken on their own, you know. It takes the darkspawn, tunneling and tunneling, searching for centuries, to find one. And with no one to lead them, it must be sheer chance, or maybe instinct which leads them. What's surprising isn't that it takes so long between Blights; what's surprising is that they succeed at all. But I imagine the old gods call to them, and it's that voice in the darkness which drives them through so many generations."--- Riordan

It wouldn't take them decades in that 200 year timeframe to find Dumat. Not when they were launching a relentless campaign against the Dwarves that caused the Warrior Aeducan to gather the armies and defend Orzammar.

And before anyone says it could take them years to travel underground, no it wouldn't. The Deep Roads were already carved, the thaigs were lost, and the Warden can travel all of Ferelden in one year.

There's more to tie the red lyrium and Primeval Thaig Dwarves to the Darkspawn, considering red lyrium thins the Veil and you hear the same whispering Darkspawn hear when battling Meredith.



@Filament: I'll address your post in a little bit. I have to gather my thoughts and do a few things.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 09 août 2011 - 07:47 .

[MichaelFinnegan]

Gespenst wrote...

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

If you search for "Ages" in Dragon Age Wiki, the Chantry Calandar, which perhaps Brother Genitivi, a Chantry scholar, considers as Chantry dogma, you'll notice some timelines. 800TE is the year when the  magisters first opened the gates to the Golden City. And 890TE is when the Grey Warden order was first formed. So within 90 years, the corruption was perhaps unleashed and men on the surface had become "veterans" in fighting darkspawn.

And, as a side note, they'd have had to have killed Dumat at least once during that period before they could perform the first joinings.

That is quite a good catch. But do we know that when that order was formed, they already knew about the Joining ritual? Perhaps it is implied, I guess.

[Darius Vir]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Gespenst wrote...

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

If you search for "Ages" in Dragon Age Wiki, the Chantry Calandar, which perhaps Brother Genitivi, a Chantry scholar, considers as Chantry dogma, you'll notice some timelines. 800TE is the year when the  magisters first opened the gates to the Golden City. And 890TE is when the Grey Warden order was first formed. So within 90 years, the corruption was perhaps unleashed and men on the surface had become "veterans" in fighting darkspawn.

And, as a side note, they'd have had to have killed Dumat at least once during that period before they could perform the first joinings.

That is quite a good catch. But do we know that when that order was formed, they already knew about the Joining ritual? Perhaps it is implied, I guess.

Something strikes me as a bit off here.  First, I remember that DG has stated Archdemon blood is not necessarily needed for the ritual.  However, for the very first Joinings, I'm not sure where then you'd get the idea that Archdemon blood is desireable.  Potency?

Also, as you point out, the Grey Wardens are founded 890 TE and the Darkspawn had been on the surface (official Blight) long enough for these guys to have already spent their entire lives fighting them.  Just a bit of perspective for length of time, I guess.

The strange thing is, though...let's say Dumat was slain at least once by 890 TE.  By this date then, the Grey Wardens are up and running....yet it takes them 100 more years to kill him just one more time? 

Edit note (referring to an earlier post)- Yeah, the 2,000 years comment was said by Larius.  I don't recall anything else that justifies pushing back the timeline of the Magisters to 2,000 years from present. 

Modifié par Darius Vir, 09 août 2011 - 10:26 .

[Gespenst]

I'm not sure who or what DG is by Riordan said that you need fresh darkspawn blood mixed with some preserved archdemon blood (and possibly lyrium I can't remember) in DA:O.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I'm not sure that we have an exact date for the time for the misadventure with the magisters. I would imagine the general assumption was that it happened immediately prior to the First Blight, but neither Corypheus nor the Chant attaches a specific date that I recall. The dwarven codex entries imply that the dwarves fought darkspawn for a short time before they uncovered Dumat and were overwhelmed. I don't really see any contradiction between the Chantry and dwarven accounts unless we get more specific information from both.

We don't know how long it took the darkspawn to find Dumat but since the dwarves seemed to think that victory would be quick at the time the First Blight started I don't think it took them centuries, unless they only revealed themselves to the dwarves near the end of their search.

[Torax]

Exactly Jedi. There is nothing to confirm a belief that the dwarven codex says anything beyond some greater time before the blight. Just their encounters with them before Dumat was found which can be at any time after the Magisters entered the golden city. Should also note that Corph may have some how been detached from the other magisters and maybe even far more powerful than the others. Trapped for the danger he causes. Meanwhile the other magisters as Darkspawn would have entered via the deeproads or even pre-planned where they would have to go for the means to their forces. They very well could have engineered the first brood mothers. The Deeproads are vast and could have found a Kossith female. Also they may have known where to look already due to various means including the knowledge the Old Gods shared or even Dumat ordered them to do after. With the bulk of the original magisters killed besides one that was trapped sleeping.

Also theory now. while he looks different. Maybe he was actually trapped in that way because they knew that like the Arch Demon he had found a way to transfer himself. Something the other Magisters may not have discovered yet. Or even just imagine. What if he was really Dumat? Da da dum

Modifié par Torax, 09 août 2011 - 11:47 .