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[Sepewrath]

Well I don't think your really can come up with any exact timeline as events are skewed, especially with the Chantry's accounts. If there was a timeline on exactly when Caradin created the Anvil, it would go a long way in seeing if the Chantry account and the Dwarven account match up. The codex I believe says he made it during the First Blight, but he would of had to make it before then, because like they said, they get a respite from the Darkspawn push during Blights.

And it sounds like they were dealing with it for awhile. It took the Darkspawn 200yrs of pounding Tevinter and they couldn't bring it down, the Deep Roads extends under most of Thedas, it would take a long time to push them back as far south as Orzammar. That may be the only sort of hole that exist the accepted timeline of the Darkspawn and the First Blight.

[Torax]

Sepewrath wrote...

Well I don't think your really can come up with any exact timeline as events are skewed, especially with the Chantry's accounts. If there was a timeline on exactly when Caradin created the Anvil, it would go a long way in seeing if the Chantry account and the Dwarven account match up. The codex I believe says he made it during the First Blight, but he would of had to make it before then, because like they said, they get a respite from the Darkspawn push during Blights.

And it sounds like they were dealing with it for awhile. It took the Darkspawn 200yrs of pounding Tevinter and they couldn't bring it down, the Deep Roads extends under most of Thedas, it would take a long time to push them back as far south as Orzammar. That may be the only sort of hole that exist the accepted timeline of the Darkspawn and the First Blight.

940 is when he made it. Which helped to bulster the dwarven cities as well as allowed them to send forces to help against the blight above which they were not able to do before hand. That was also 140 years of the Darkspawn building up their forces. Dwarves do not appear to live that long so he wouldn't have been able to build it over 100 years. Also keep in mind if the thought is a mideavel time life spans of say many not living past 40? That is over 3 full life spans of humans before he made that anvil. That is a long time. I'm barely 30 years old and that means you could stack how man of my life spans of the dwarven thaigs being attacked. It's why the crafting of the Anvil made such a drastic change. Dumat would have left a large amount of forces below ground. He wouldn't have left the Brood Mothers vulnerable and eventually they did have to march on them. That is where the Golems likely came in.

[Rifneno]

Gespenst wrote...

I'm not sure who or what DG is by Riordan said that you need fresh darkspawn blood mixed with some preserved archdemon blood (and possibly lyrium I can't remember) in DA:O.

DG = David Gaider, the lead writer for the series.  He posts on the forums occasionally and clarifies bits like that for us.

[Sepewrath]

Like I said, that kind of thought is directly contradicted, they said, the Darkspawn ease up when there are Blights. Not to mention, I don't think they would care about protecting Broodmothers, they could always make more with victims from the Blight. And I don't recall there ever being a date put on when the Anvil was made.

Lastly there is still the issue of how long this war would take, because the story of the Anvil is Caradin made it during the First Blight, during that time Aeducan was bringing the line back to Orzammar and abandoning all the lost thaigs, that would of had to take hundreds of years to lose all that ground, to the point where they had to fall back to Frostback. You cant lose that in a hundred years, even with the most worthless defense.

[Torax]

Sepewrath wrote...

Like I said, that kind of thought is directly contradicted, they said, the Darkspawn ease up when there are Blights. Not to mention, I don't think they would care about protecting Broodmothers, they could always make more with victims from the Blight. And I don't recall there ever being a date put on when the Anvil was made.

Lastly there is still the issue of how long this war would take, because the story of the Anvil is Caradin made it during the First Blight, during that time Aeducan was bringing the line back to Orzammar and abandoning all the lost thaigs, that would of had to take hundreds of years to lose all that ground, to the point where they had to fall back to Frostback. You cant lose that in a hundred years, even with the most worthless defense.

The first blight was unique. They had hardly any knowledge of the darkspawn or how they work. They probably didn't fully understand that the Archdemon was the key. You are trying to wrap knowledge you would have around the gameplay we saw versus what that first blight had. Which is likely a force so strong it could wage war above and below ground with ease. The Blight you deal with that damn near demolishes Denerim is after only 6 months. So you are keeping track of the forces they built up for that. Take the amounts that supposedly attacked denerim and feel free to multiply them by at least a ton more. Also keep in mind that the blight before Origins was so destroyed they didn't think they would come back which was unusual. So the few we saw is tiny compared to what a normal blight would have seen which is likely a small fraction of what Dumat's blight had.

Edited to add.

You are probably giving the dwarves to much credit for how long they live. They tend to have many kids and push for a ton of children it seems despite living underground so It could have been a few royal lines between the 140 years leading to the Anvil's creation. If you are thinking the average dwarf could even live to 100? I think you're stoned (A pun but worth it). Dwarves also tend to kill each other off a lot. For power and so on. They'll murder each toher for business deals. To think even a normal king would live to 50 is probably generous. I bet most wouldn't live past 40 and depending how they rule would end up murdered along with their family line. Unless their family members did it of course.

Modifié par Torax, 10 août 2011 - 12:21 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Codex says that the dwarves lost most of their empire and population in the span of a few decades during the First Blight.

[Gespenst]

Torax wrote...

Also theory now. while he looks different. Maybe he was actually trapped in that way because they knew that like
the Arch Demon he had found a way to transfer himself. Something the other Magisters may not have discovered yet. Or even just imagine. What if he was really Dumat? Da da dum

At first I thought they'd somehow found another archdemon but he'd randomly enslaved dwarves somehow since they act in a similar manner. But then why would he call on Dumat in the battle? Why did the blight even end if that was the case?

Rifneno wrote...

DG = David Gaider, the lead writer for the series.  He posts on the forums occasionally and clarifies bits like that for us.

Oh, I didn't know. That's pretty cool. I bought one of the DA books he wrote the other day although I haven't started reading it yet, I didn't realise he was the lead writer for the games too (I figured they'd just hired a random writer that they liked or something to write their books but this makes more sense).

Modifié par Gespenst, 10 août 2011 - 01:54 .

[MichaelFinnegan]

Darius Vir wrote...

Something strikes me as a bit off here.  First, I remember that DG has stated Archdemon blood is not necessarily needed for the ritual.  However, for the very first Joinings, I'm not sure where then you'd get the idea that Archdemon blood is desireable.  Potency?

Here is Gaider's explanation. What I understood from that is even though archdemon blood is not strictly required, having it will increase the chances of one not dying or becoming a ghoul. You know, maybe those first Wardens didn't know they could use archdemon blood. Maybe that came to their notice after they'd slain Dumat. It could only be that the conversion rates (to becoming a Grey Warden) were slim - perhaps there was more chances of one dying or becoming a ghoul during the joining ceremony. And using archdemon blood came as an advancement, from later research into the matter.

Also, as you point out, the Grey Wardens are founded 890 TE and the Darkspawn had been on the surface (official Blight) long enough for these guys to have already spent their entire lives fighting them.  Just a bit of perspective for length of time, I guess.

I suppose 90 years is theoretically possible. If the archdemon was discovered soon enough, if the darkspawn were able to multiply to sufficient numbers quickly enough, if they were able to gain control of the Deep Roads to spread to the surface, and if they were on the surface long enough to have some of the surfacers to have become veterans at fighting them.

I just find all that unlikely, seeing how the next blights that came to pass were separated in time from one another by at least 200 years, and in those years one can assume that the darkspawn were merely multiplying and tunneling to get at their Old God (or something).

The strange thing is, though...let's say Dumat was slain at least once by 890 TE.  By this date then, the Grey Wardens are up and running....yet it takes them 100 more years to kill him just one more time?

If those Wardens knew at the start how to kill the archdemon - then, sure, it seems very odd. If not, however, it could have taken them the next 100 years just to discover how to do that.

[Torax]

Plus how would they have known ahead of time that the Arch Demon was the key to why they were charging the way they did. Commanding the Darkspawn with his song. The first grey wardens likely saw visions of the arch demon but supposedly it could take a long time before they would have figured out what the Archdemon was saying. Alistair seemed to hint at the older ones saying they can understand him. So if they were founded in 890, it may not have even put 2 & 2 together about the Arch Demon and his commanding all darkspawn until say 920-940. The Blight we deal with in game is a short one that lasts all of 6 months. Most blights are giant wars that cover a large chunk of Thedas. So what we'd visualize versus what happened in the first blight could be completely alien. For example what would your hero have done if Riordan was just killed by Howe? You wouldn't have known what would happen and some how left the Blight to continue.

[Sepewrath]

Torax wrote...
So the few we saw is tiny compared to what a normal blight would have seen which is likely a small fraction of what Dumat's blight had.

See and that is where the inconsistency lies. Think about it, the Dwarves said they came out nowhere, they had no contact with them, the Darkspawn hadn't encountered the other races yet, so there shouldn't have been any Hurlocks, Shrieks or anything and there shouldn't have even been much in the way of Genlocks, if the species had just started. The first Blight should have in fact had the lowest number of Darkspawn(outside of the one day Fifth of course lol) at least not for a very long time.

They barely destroyed Denerim, a city with no defense, yet they could take over a Thedas sized kingdom with numbers that could have only been in the thousands at the time? Doesn't add up, their numbers would had to be massive from the outset and they had to be that way BEFORE the blight started to push the Dwarves back. So where were all these Darkspawn coming from, I know Broodmothers can give birth to thousands, but its not like their born full grown, don't they have to eat people or each other or something like that. Maybe I'm overthinking it, but its seems odd to me that a species that literally just poped out the ether, but are still bound by the laws of reproduction, could overthrow the Deep Roads, without just insane numbers, that would take a long time to create.

[TEWR]

which is where the Primeval Thaig probably comes in. If the Dwarves there are connected to the Darkspawn in some way, then it could help to explain it. Perhaps the dwarves fled the Thaig for some reason that connects to the Black City and the Taint, and the females became broodmothers. Then those broodmothers gave birth to thousands of Genlocks, who proceeded to begin digging.

Sometimes they would find the Dwarves, and the Dwarves would kill them. But the Dwarves didn't realize the threat that they posed. Then they found Dumat and began their siege.

And when they went topside, they took human and elven prisoners (and possibly Tal-Vashoth Kossith? since they apparently remove their horns, the once horned ones could blend in easier).

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I'm pretty sure the Primeaval Thaig has zero connection to the darkspawn. All the Codex entries imply it's a part of the deep roads that is miraculously free of darkspawn.

[TEWR]

Well, I think it is, since red lyrium thins the Veil, Darkspawn were seen in the Fade, Avernus' notes mention a connection between the Black City and the Taint, the Mother sent the First into the Fade in the hopes that he'd hear the song again, the red lyrium sings to Bartrand, and the lyrium idol makes the same whispering Darkspawn hear when you fight Meredith, and many other things.

If there were only a couple things, I could definitely be accused of grasping at straws. But Ser Otto said it best:

One odd thing I'm willing to believe, but two?

Only this is more than two odd things. And only one codex entry says that, and that's in regards to what I believe is a Primeval Thaig near Orzammar, since it's addressed to the king of Orzammar.

Your Majesty,

It's difficult getting a straight answer out of the scavenger. These sods get themselves so blighted they can't think straight, much less keep spit in their mouths. He says, however, that he's gone down into parts of the Deep Roads that are so old that our people forgot them long before the Blight even happened.

He spoke of great statues and temples--temples! He spoke of things that could have only been made of magic and of impossible ruins untouched by darkspawn. He described creatures the likes of which we've never seen.

None of it's possible, of course. I've conferred with the Shaper and he says the Memories date back to the founding of the first thaig--what could have come before that? Yes, we're unable to explore these depths the scavenger spoke of because of the darkspawn, but surely the Memories would speak of such places if they existed.

Yet in this scavenger's belongings, amidst all the filth, there was a single idol. It was clearly of dwarven make, but not resembling any Paragon on record. The idol was dressed in a manner I've never seen. The Shaper of Memories also could not identify it or the substance from which it was made. The thought that the Memories might be wrong... unsettling.

— Excerpt from a report sealed in the Orzammar royal archives by order of King Annalar Geldinblade in 8:48 Blessed.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 11 août 2011 - 03:09 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I didn't read too much into that whispering sounds the idol made. I don't think it's a case of anything more than an audio effect being reused barbecue it was good at signifying "insidious whispering."

There's also a journal entry from a member of the Legion of the Dead that talked about a Profane killing a Hurlock they were fighting.

Avernus also says that demons are unfamiliar with the taint. Plus The Baroness and Justice didn't seem to know what a darkspawn, was so they don't seem to be commonplace in the fade.

The song of the Lyrium Idol and the song of the Old Gods don't strike me as being related. They can only be heard by different individuals, seem to be connected through different means and have totally different effects on those who hear them.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 11 août 2011 - 04:48 .

[MichaelFinnegan]

Torax wrote...

Plus how would they have known ahead of time that the Arch Demon was the key to why they were charging the way they did. Commanding the Darkspawn with his song. The first grey wardens likely saw visions of the arch demon but supposedly it could take a long time before they would have figured out what the Archdemon was saying.

Well, the thing is that the Archdemon, if it had showed itself early on in the Blight, would have stood out in the crowd. Don't you think? Not particularly that it was the leader or that it was keeping things together, but that it was a clear and present danger. The biggest threat even - seeing the amount of devastation it could cause.

Alistair seemed to hint at the older ones saying they can understand him. So if they were founded in 890, it may not have even put 2 & 2 together about the Arch Demon and his commanding all darkspawn until say 920-940.

I'd think in all the chaos that must have been in the First Blight, people would have noticed that the Archdemon was the biggest threat. Just because of its sheer size, its power, and so on. They would have made it the primary target, whether they knew it was commanding the horde or not. If those folks were lucky enough to have enough power to fight and defeat the Archdemon (which I very much doubt happened for a long, long time), they'd have quickly figured out that it could not be killed by normal means. Hence the Grey Warden order was formed, I'm guessing - tasked specifically to figure out how exactly to do that. And, over time, someone figured it out that they had to bring the taint upon themselves for that to happen. Let me reiterate here, this would have been the hardest thing to figure out - hence I'm guessing the 100 years or so it took to finally defeat the Archdemon.

It is anyone's guess when (if at all, during the first Blight) anyone figured out the Archdemon was commanding the horde. Sure, those Grey Wardens who were involved in the Joining would have seen "visions" and probably put 2 and 2 together, as you said. But I'm guess that would have been closer to the end stages of the Blight, the turn of the Tevinter century, even.

The Blight we deal with in game is a short one that lasts all of 6 months. Most blights are giant wars that cover a large chunk of Thedas. So what we'd visualize versus what happened in the first blight could be completely alien. For example what would your hero have done if Riordan was just killed by Howe? You wouldn't have known what would happen and some how left the Blight to continue.

Yes, with Alistair and the Warden in the Fifth Blight, it would have been something like a "shot in the dark." I think though the only thing they'd not have known was that the one who hit the final blow would die. They were already Grey Wardens, capable of defeating the Archdemon.

I'm thinking Riordan was mainly a plot device to introduce the Dark Ritual into the game - probably nothing more. Sure, one can argue that he'd have given greater perspective and all, but that was not the prime intent, I'm guessing.

But, otherwise, I can say that it would have been progressively easier to defeat the Blights after the first. The only issue would have been the length of time between blights - if too much time elapsed, people would be enticed by the lull of apparent safety - and it would have been difficult to amass armies or honor treaties or even to convince others that the Blight was real. Time does that to memory - it dulls it.

[TEWR]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I didn't read too much into that whispering sounds the idol made. I don't think it's a case of anything more than an audio effect being reused barbecue it was good at signifying "insidious whispering."

I don't think Bioware would reuse that sound file if it didn't have some sort of significance.

There's also a journal entry from a member of the Legion of the Dead that talked about a Profane killing a Hurlock they were fighting.

I vaguely remember that codex. Where was it?

Avernus also says that demons are unfamiliar with the taint. Plus The Baroness and Justice didn't seem to know what a darkspawn, was so they don't seem to be commonplace in the fade.

Remember the part of the Fade in Broken Circle that was filled entirely with Darkspawn? Uthkiel the Crusher, an Ogre, was their leader. And as I said, his notes say that the Black City is connected to the Taint

The song of the Lyrium Idol and the song of the Old Gods don't strike me as being related. They can only be heard by different individuals, seem to be connected through different means and have totally different effects on those who hear them.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

[Torax]

Michael the point is that they wouldn't have figured out the part regarding the Arch Demon's command of the forces. Once he would have transferred his essence to say an Emissary? He'd still have full command and control. They'd just have to find and kill him again. This could have sent him to an Ogre or some other dark spawn many times over before they figured out what actually happens when an Arch Demon dies. Considering it was how many forces fighting against it. More than just Grey Wardens. That is only my point. It could have taken them many decades to figure out the true key to ending a blight. Just killing the dragon wouldn't necessarily end it.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Torax wrote...

Michael the point is that they wouldn't have figured out the part regarding the Arch Demon's command of the forces. Once he would have transferred his essence to say an Emissary? He'd still have full command and control. They'd just have to find and kill him again. This could have sent him to an Ogre or some other dark spawn many times over before they figured out what actually happens when an Arch Demon dies. Considering it was how many forces fighting against it. More than just Grey Wardens. That is only my point. It could have taken them many decades to figure out the true key to ending a blight. Just killing the dragon wouldn't necessarily end it.

Okay. I knew we were more or less in agreement. I just wanted to emphasize on a few details that I thought about.

But there is one small detail that needs to be added to what you described, though. If the Archdemon is slain by someone other than a Grey Warden, its soul moves into another darkspawn, true. But that darkspawn would then transform into another dragon - with a new Archdemon born. So it would not be difficult to determine where the soul went. The actual difficulty would come because the new Archdemon would become almost immortal and almost every darkspawn in existence would be exterminated. This is what Riordan says.

So, the issue would have been that although the re-formed Archdemon would have become almost immortal, and there would be no other darkspawn left. So, really, if all of this is true, how did the Grey Wardens figure out how to defeat the Archdemon during the First Blight? Seems rather odd. Or maybe Riordan got the details wrong.

[Darius Vir]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

But, otherwise, I can say that it would have been progressively easier to defeat the Blights after the first. The only issue would have been the length of time between blights - if too much time elapsed, people would be enticed by the lull of apparent safety - and it would have been difficult to amass armies or honor treaties or even to convince others that the Blight was real. Time does that to memory - it dulls it.

Just wanted to point something out in agreement here. Not sure how relevant this is, but  defeating a Blights DOES seem to get easier and easier over time.  

Even if we looked at the Fifth Blight as something weird/an aberration, there was a serious decrease in time span that each Blight took to end.  It's pretty striking.  Off the top of my head, it goes from something like 200 years, to 90 years, to 25 years, to 8 years.  Then, of course, 1 year with the Fifth Blight. 

Modifié par Darius Vir, 11 août 2011 - 05:03 .

[Gespenst]

They way things are going the seventh blight will be ended when archdemon cracks his head on the roof of a cavern causing lava to flood in and kill all the darkspawn.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I vaguely remember that codex. Where was it?

I can't remember offhand exactly when it appers but it's the Codex Entry for Rock Wraiths. So I think it appaers pretty soon after you beging running into the Profane.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Remember the part of the Fade in Broken Circle that was filled entirely with Darkspawn? Uthkiel the Crusher, an Ogre, was their leader. And as I said, his notes say that the Black City is connected to the Taint

That whole series of levels was filled with dream imagery. I didn't think any of them were supposed to be real darkspawn. I was sure that ogre was supposed to be a demon in the form of a darkspawn. I mean when have ogres or any darkspawn before Awakening ever had names?

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Well alrighty.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 11 août 2011 - 05:39 .

[MichaelFinnegan]

Darius Vir wrote...

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

But, otherwise, I can say that it would have been progressively easier to defeat the Blights after the first. The only issue would have been the length of time between blights - if too much time elapsed, people would be enticed by the lull of apparent safety - and it would have been difficult to amass armies or honor treaties or even to convince others that the Blight was real. Time does that to memory - it dulls it.

Just wanted to point something out in agreement here. Not sure how relevant this is, but  defeating a Blights DOES seem to get easier and easier over time.  

Even if we looked at the Fifth Blight as something weird/an aberration, there was a serious decrease in time span that each Blight took to end.  It's pretty striking.  Off the top of my head, it goes from something like 200 years, to 90 years, to 25 years, to 8 years.  Then, of course, 1 year with the Fifth Blight. 

I'd expect so. The blight is a programmed activity of some kind. Darkspawn don't seem to be evolving by any means; as the rest of Thedas wisen up to the threat, the darkspawn and the Blight remain, as they were. The trick then would be to figure out what it involves. Once you have the key, well, it is just rinse and repeat.

Although, I wonder. Are we missing some factor? Say something that might be reducing the intensity of the blights, weakening them somehow? I wouldn't expect it, but you never know...

Gespenst wrote...

They way things are going the seventh blight will be ended when archdemon cracks his head on the roof of a
cavern causing lava to flood in and kill all the darkspawn.

You mean if it gets that opportunity?

Modifié par MichaelFinnegan, 11 août 2011 - 05:41 .