245 réponses à ce sujet

[nijnij]

slimgrin wrote...

I believe it was Angela Merkel who said multiculturalism has utterly failed. She's not alone in that sentiment.

No you're right, there's that nutjob from Norway too...

Guys, this isn't a matter of multiculturalism : those rioters are freaking teenagers, they were born in the UK and probably never read the Qur'an, this has nothing to do with cultural incompatibility, it's plain social violence. Bill O'Reilly tried to make the same cheap point a few years ago saying the rioters in France were all Islamists while they were just youths born in France going to French public schools.

And by the way, when integration fails, it means you have to try harder, not give up on integration, otherwise that means even more racism and social tensions that lead to riots.

[slimgrin]

I couldn't disagree more about your point on integration. And cultural incompatibility is inherited.

Modifié par slimgrin, 11 août 2011 - 03:18 .

[nijnij]

slimgrin wrote...

I couldn't disagree more about your point on integration. And cultural incompatibility is inherited.

So is bigotry I take it ... Just kidding but your last statement is kind of harsh, I'm pretty sure most of these guys have parents who're law-abiding citizens. I don't know about England but in France most first/second generation immigrants are, and they're quite laic at that. It's the kids who get tired of being treated like crap while their parents and grandparents helped build the economy. Again, not justifying anything, just saying that it's clearly a matter of social tensions, not cultural, not in that case.

Modifié par nijnij, 11 août 2011 - 03:33 .

[Lord Phoebus]

But if you don't master integration you'll never be able to handle differential equations...

I'm generally against multiculturalism and pro melting pot. My experience with multiculturalism is that it leads to segregation and ghettoism, you end up with people who share an ethnicity and/or language living in the same are and not adapting to the host society, you end up with people who live in the country for 20 years and can't speak the language because the people who run the neighbourhood stores and services can serve them in their native tongue. These people get socially stuck in these environments and don't progress.

The immigrants that adopt the host nation's culture and identity generally tend to be more socially mobile and perform better in the host society. That's not to say that you have to throw away your cultural identity (there's a hell of a lot wrong with western civilization and quite a few things that other cultures do better) but assimilation tends to be better than segregation when you move to a new area.

[BTG_01]

I'm of the mind that the motivations behind these rioters are fairly simple:

1) They're self-important morons
2) They think they can get away with it

I hope they're proven wrong on that second point.

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

Therefore_I_Am wrote...

There should've been a public announcement that looters would be shot on sight.

If they are going to act like primates, then they will be put down like primates.

I really hate violence, and I say that with all seriousness. But, I am prepared for it. I'm armed to the teeth and legally licensed to carry in over half the states in the union. I'll welcome anyone into my home as a friend, but if they intend to victimize me things will get ugly.

A right to bear arms makes for a more civilized society. It reminds me of a quote from the early Renaissance stating "One sword keeps another sword in it's sheath."

There is a reason why manners and politeness have vanished in modern society and entitlements and individualism run drain all our resources. I wish people would remember how brutal, miserable and short life can be and realize all we have are the briefest moments with each other in this state of life. At least it puts things in perspective for me.

[Agamo45]

Theironclaw wrote...

It's times like these that make the British National Party seem like a good idea.

I've heard that the BNP and other far-right groups have been doing what the police aren't, namely defending their neighborhoods from these mobs. Good for them, that'll probably boost their prestige.

[Ulous]

As my post two pages ago went pretty much unnoticed i'll keep this one short.

Here in England for pretty much my whole life I have heard paranoid racists harp on about how they think muslims are taking over the country and will inflict us with their Sharia Law, I also hear people criticizing countries like North Korea and Cuba for being harsh to their people........ yet when an ignored socially deteriorated part of society take to the streets people are screaming out for curfews, capital punishment, the death sentence, removal of our human rights and marshal law.

Just pfft tbh. *Rolls eyes*

[slimgrin]

Ulous wrote...

As my post two pages ago went pretty much unnoticed i'll keep this one short.

Here in England for pretty much my whole life I have heard paranoid racists harp on about how they think muslims are taking over the country and will inflict us with their Sharia Law, I also hear people criticizing countries like North Korea and Cuba for being harsh to their people........ yet when an ignored socially deteriorated part of society take to the streets people are screaming out for curfews, capital punishment, the death sentence, removal of our human rights and marshal law.

Just pfft tbh. *Rolls eyes*

Believe me, I didn't ignore it.

You guys want Sharia law, just so you can play nice with another religion? Knock yourselves out. Ask what the ladies think of that.

And if you don't realize North Korea is 'harsh' to its citizens, you must be in la la land.
 

Modifié par slimgrin, 11 août 2011 - 06:25 .

[Massadonious1]

I'm pretty sure he was talking about people that think that all Muslims want to do in any free society is impose Shaira Law, not that he actually wants it himself.

[Ulous]

slimgrin wrote...

Ulous wrote...

As my post two pages ago went pretty much unnoticed i'll keep this one short.

Here in England for pretty much my whole life I have heard paranoid racists harp on about how they think muslims are taking over the country and will inflict us with their Sharia Law, I also hear people criticizing countries like North Korea and Cuba for being harsh to their people........ yet when an ignored socially deteriorated part of society take to the streets people are screaming out for curfews, capital punishment, the death sentence, removal of our human rights and marshal law.

Just pfft tbh. *Rolls eyes*

Believe me, I didn't ignore it.

You guys want Sharia law, just so you can play nice with another religion? Knock yourselves out. Ask what the ladies think of that.

And if you don't realize North Korea is 'harsh' to its citizens, you must be in la la land.
 

I think you have miss-read, the demands our people are making for curfews and marshal law etc are the very things they are saying they fear with sharia law and/or with what goes on in N Korea.

[chunkyman]

Ulous wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Ulous wrote...

As my post two pages ago went pretty much unnoticed i'll keep this one short.

Here in England for pretty much my whole life I have heard paranoid racists harp on about how they think muslims are taking over the country and will inflict us with their Sharia Law, I also hear people criticizing countries like North Korea and Cuba for being harsh to their people........ yet when an ignored socially deteriorated part of society take to the streets people are screaming out for curfews, capital punishment, the death sentence, removal of our human rights and marshal law.

Just pfft tbh. *Rolls eyes*

Believe me, I didn't ignore it.

You guys want Sharia law, just so you can play nice with another religion? Knock yourselves out. Ask what the ladies think of that.

And if you don't realize North Korea is 'harsh' to its citizens, you must be in la la land.
 

I think you have miss-read, the demands our people are making for curfews and marshal law etc are the very things they are saying they fear with sharia law and/or with what goes on in N Korea.

There is a world of difference between wanting temporary martial law for the sake of restoring order and wanting Sharia law for the governing of all society.

[slimgrin]

Ulous wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Ulous wrote...

As my post two pages ago went pretty much unnoticed i'll keep this one short.

Here in England for pretty much my whole life I have heard paranoid racists harp on about how they think muslims are taking over the country and will inflict us with their Sharia Law, I also hear people criticizing countries like North Korea and Cuba for being harsh to their people........ yet when an ignored socially deteriorated part of society take to the streets people are screaming out for curfews, capital punishment, the death sentence, removal of our human rights and marshal law.

Just pfft tbh. *Rolls eyes*

Believe me, I didn't ignore it.

You guys want Sharia law, just so you can play nice with another religion? Knock yourselves out. Ask what the ladies think of that.

And if you don't realize North Korea is 'harsh' to its citizens, you must be in la la land.
 

I think you have miss-read, the demands our people are making for curfews and marshal law etc are the very things they are saying they fear with sharia law and/or with what goes on in N Korea.

Just who is 'our people?'

Modifié par slimgrin, 11 août 2011 - 07:33 .

[A-K-M]

The only culture these rioters have is too cool for school chav culture.

[Fishy]

nijnij wrote...

@Druss99 I'm not making excuses, as I said, violence is inexcusable, but if you want to fight it, you have to understand where it comes from.

The violence towards people is just wrong and pure douchebaggery. Now the looting is wrong too but it might have something to do with these people being nobody's, with no means to a decent future, and so they feel in order to be somebody in the eyes of their community they need possessions, because all you see on TV and in the street all day is just that, ads for stupid crap. That's all we value, how much one can afford. Of course they're opportunists, but I believe many middle class people would be in other contexts. Now the violence I'm disgusted with. But when it comes to the lootings it's just them being as materialistic as society tells them to be. Unless they're not even keeping the loot but just saying "f*ck" to Armani and co, and if that's the case, I see where they come from. I hope this all stops soon though since ultimately, the answer to such behaviour tends to be more discrimination instead of more understanding, so they're really not helping anything.

I agree with you.

[Ulous]

chunkyman wrote...

There is a world of difference between wanting temporary martial law for the sake of restoring order and wanting Sharia law for the governing of all society.

Indeed if you base it on the assumption it would be temporary, history as shown that once you start allowing things like that to happen they become shall I say semi-permanent.

Besides it is more than just marshal law, all over the internet and the papers people are screaming out for capital punishment, instant executions, curfews, a return of the death sentence and the abolition of the human rights act.

You start doing one of the above things then it leads to the next.

[Funkcase]

A-K-M wrote...

The only culture these rioters have is too cool for school chav culture.

The irony of that is one of them was a 31 year old school teacher, lol.

And people please, this isn't a race issue. Alot of the rioters are white, some aren't poor poople from housing estates. This looters are simply people who stopped fearing the police, and believe they can take what they want, and do what they want and get away with it.

I dont know if it has, but I haven't heard much about it last night, maybe it's starting to quite down? Unless the government believe it best to keep it off the air, as constant media coverage is only promoting the violence to copycats. Unless the looters fear the plastic bullets the police are now authorised to use, and the idea of vigalantie's stalking the streets looking for them.

Edit: Apparantly they didn't riot (much) last night as there was heavy rain. Wow, the British weather was good for something for a change!

Modifié par Funkcase, 11 août 2011 - 10:46 .

[Ulous]

slimgrin wrote...

Just who is 'our people?'

Just the general population of England, although much of it to be fair is put in their heads rather than thinking it for themselves.

[Funkcase]

Ulous wrote...

chunkyman wrote...

There is a world of difference between wanting temporary martial law for the sake of restoring order and wanting Sharia law for the governing of all society.

Indeed if you base it on the assumption it would be temporary, history as shown that once you start allowing things like that to happen they become shall I say semi-permanent.

Besides it is more than just marshal law, all over the internet and the papers people are screaming out for capital punishment, instant executions, curfews, a return of the death sentence and the abolition of the human rights act.

You start doing one of the above things then it leads to the next.

Indeed, Sharia law isn't the answer.

If they brought that in there would be worse than the violence we are having now, there woild be a religious war on ower streets instead.

[Drone696]

billy the squid wrote...

rapunzel696 wrote...

billy the squid wrote...
*snip*

Multiculturalism is a pipe dream that was pushed by the Labour government before its irresponsible economic policy brought the Uk economy to its knees. It seems to be a legacy that a Labour government tends to leave, it also happened before in the 1970s under Labour.

I agree that a certain level of tolerance is fine, and the duty of the Government is to enfore it, with a stick if necessary. But, what we have had is 12 years of state sponsored multiculturalism where every culture is equally valid and have a positive effect on each other, whilst existing as seperate ideological entities as such radicalism can't be criticised because its racist or xeophobic. Yet, When someone blows up a train or a skin headed thug beats a person to death with a table leg Its a bit late.

Unfortunately people are trible by nature and will inevitably gravitate towards similar cultural groups, making groups subject to an us and them mentality. As to geo political events it will be interesting, but hopefully it will make the government pull the stick out its collective arse and beat the thugs back into line. As I think the whole idea of policing by consent has some major short comings. Namely one shouldn't be afraid to use the stick when the carrot doesn't work.

LOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!
I take it they were just good enough to do the dirty work for the British Empire.

You're an idiot.

Read the ideology behind multiculturalism, before commenting on it. It applies to all races and cultures living and influencing one another harmoneously whilst remaining seperate of one another. The aspects of the ideology remain opposites, how does one reconcile segregation and intercultural influnces? Certain styles of society will not be reconcileable and treating all aspects of it as valid within the scope of a single legislative system is impossible.

Or is the right of expression to be overridden by religious radicalism, or maybe white supremacy should be allowed as part of a cultural aspect in parts of society.

Please think before typing, illustrating your ignorace is not something to be proud of.

First of all: don't call me an idiot.

Secondly, I never commented on multiculturalism. Failed or not, every culture is equally valid,If you like it or not. There is no such thing as a masterrace (remember where that led to).

And if we want integration we have to at least try to understand other cultures. But with statements like all muslims are radical nutjobs etc. we only drift away from each other more and more.

People thinking they are culturally and morally superior and at the same time demanding to "put them down like primates" have more in common with the looters than they like to think.

Look at the pic above. To make it clear, I think such behaviour is unacceptable, but why are people oh so shocked? For centuries it was exactly the other way round. And nobody in our "civilized" societies cared.

[Mercannis]

There are a couple of things which i find laughable about the whole situation but primarily the amount of apologetic hand wringing lefties who believe the rioters are all poor misguided souls, living in poverty ( Have you seen the handouts they get?). Its just scum being scum, only instead of it being confined to certain areas and at night its spreading all over England like a cancer.

Its pretty surreal for us Scots and i guess for the Welsh and Irish too to look on and watch the English destroy themselves. Although many could say that its been coming what with Tony Blairs super duper Foreign policies over the last decade. I feel sorry for David Cameron having to take over a country that is going down the ****ter  while ol Tony and his cronies are living the high life in the EU and i also feel sorry for those people who have lost their homes, businesses and for some their lifes.

I did see here on the net that the BNP has mobilised and are patrolling neighbourhoods and i wonder what this means for Englands future. There are after all a good few EU countries that voted it a far right party after such incidents, thinking of countries like Belgium and France.

Btw i see the French are still dumping illegals on the border in the hundreds..they are jumping from motorway bridges onto the trucks and riding along into England, seems like it will get even worse and who is going to foot the bill i wonder.

[Drone696]

Yay,more hate and agression will surely help.

[Mercannis]

rapunzel696 wrote...


First of all: don't call me an idiot.

Secondly, I never commented on multiculturalism. Failed or not, every culture is equally valid,If you like it or not. There is no such thing as a masterrace (remember where that led to).

And if we want integration we have to at least try to understand other cultures. But with statements like all muslims are radical nutjobs etc. we only drift away from each other more and more.

People thinking they are culturally and morally superior and at the same time demanding to "put them down like primates" have more in common with the looters than they like to think.

Look at the pic above. To make it clear, I think such behaviour is unacceptable, but why are people oh so shocked? For centuries it was exactly the other way round. And nobody in our "civilized" societies cared.

uhuh, well you see when you go to another country you respect the culture and traditions of the native populace.
It has nothing to do with race and everything to do with respecting a host nation. That means not forming ghettos, not speaking your mother tongue all the time and arrogantly expecting that people understand you in their country.

Yes because hundreds of years ago the black man was dragged out of Africa and used as slaves that makes whats happening now justifiable  We are in 2011 if you hadnt noticed the black man hasnt been persecuted in the UK for centuries we have "evolved" our way of thinking , pity some cant let go of atrocities that were comitted in another age.

[Funkcase]

I do agree with that Mercannis, and slavery seems to have started by African's (Egypt)

But please people, lets not turn this into a race issue. The riots have nothing to do with race, there are plenty of caucasian people taking part too. We dont want this thread getting locked, and race shoudln't be a issue, alot of my best friends are black and asian, w are all human. One of the things I love about this country is how multi-cultured it is.

[billy the squid]

rapunzel696 wrote...

First of all: don't call me an idiot.

Secondly, I never commented on multiculturalism. Failed or not, every culture is equally valid,If you like it or not. There is no such thing as a masterrace (remember where that led to).

And if we want integration we have to at least try to understand other cultures. But with statements like all muslims are radical nutjobs etc. we only drift away from each other more and more.

People thinking they are culturally and morally superior and at the same time demanding to "put them down like primates" have more in common with the looters than they like to think.

Look at the pic above. To make it clear, I think such behaviour is unacceptable, but why are people oh so shocked? For centuries it was exactly the other way round. And nobody in our "civilized" societies cared.

But, I did comment on multiculturalism. Why you have brought race in to a discussion is beyond me. Although it strikes me as a move to disregard reasoned points by mislabeling it as racial superiority, a cheap and lazy way to avoid the issue.

Allowing the entire range of cultural aspects within one legislative system is impossible, some are wholey incompatible with one another, as such invalid. Whilst race and cultural superiority are entirely seperate issues which do not relate to one another. As to cultural validity, some have mentioned sharia law, I wouldn't have thought it would be implemented across the entire country, but to allow a seperate legislative system to exist which superceeds our own legislative system is insane, therefore aspects of the culture within the country are not valid.

Integration has been cast aside by 12 years of the previous government's social policy to allow groups to segregate themselves from the rest of society, the idea that one culture will influence another and co exist peacefully with one another, but remain seperate is contradictory. Cultural diversity babble does not account for social polarisation which remains and has been exacerbated by mismanagement on the part of the government.

The current unrest is sheer opportunistic looting and people being thugs,not race. I don't envy the police as they are given a hard time when using "excessive force" in one instance and then criticised for not doing enough.

As to the refrence to the picture above, so what? Those who engaged in practices have been dead for generations. It is simply a soft approach and the same style of excuse which is trotted out when ever anyone does something in contravention of the law. Their culture has been down trodden, young people have no work, materialism in society is to blame, etc.

What? Is no one responsible for their own actions anymore? Many people are finding the economic situation hard, we don't all go running out into the street and steal a Tv.

Modifié par billy the squid, 11 août 2011 - 11:46 .