245 réponses à ce sujet

[Drone696]

billy the squid wrote...

rapunzel696 wrote...

First of all: don't call me an idiot.

Secondly, I never commented on multiculturalism. Failed or not, every culture is equally valid,If you like it or not. There is no such thing as a masterrace (remember where that led to).

And if we want integration we have to at least try to understand other cultures. But with statements like all muslims are radical nutjobs etc. we only drift away from each other more and more.

People thinking they are culturally and morally superior and at the same time demanding to "put them down like primates" have more in common with the looters than they like to think.

Look at the pic above. To make it clear, I think such behaviour is unacceptable, but why are people oh so shocked? For centuries it was exactly the other way round. And nobody in our "civilized" societies cared.

But, I did comment on multiculturalism. Why you have brought race in to a discussion is beyond me. Although it strikes me as a move to disregard reasoned points by mislabeling it as racial superiority, a cheap and lazy way to avoid the issue.

Allowing the entire range of cultural aspects within one legislative system is impossible, some are wholey incompatible with one another, as such invalid. Whilst race and cultural superiority are entirely seperate issues which do not relate to one another. As to cultural validity, some have mentioned sharia law, I wouldn't have thought it would be implemented across the entire country, but to allow a seperate legislative system to exist which superceeds our own legislative system is insane, therefore aspects of the culture within the country are not valid.

Integration has been cast aside by 12 years of the previous government's social policy to allow groups to segregate themselves from the rest of society, the idea that one culture will influence another and co exist peacefully with one another, but remain seperate is contradictory. Cultural diversity babble does not account for social polarisation which remains and has been exacerbated by mismanagement on the part of the government.

The current unrest is sheer opportunistic looting and people being thugs,not race. I don't envy the police as they are given a hard time when using "excessive force" in one instance and then criticised for not doing enough.

As to the refrence to the picture above, so what? Those who engaged in practices have been dead for generations. It is simply a soft approach and the same style of excuse which is trotted out when ever anyone does something in contravention of the law. Their culture has been down trodden, young people have no work, materialism in society is to blame, etc.

What? Is no one responsible for their own actions anymore? Many people are finding the economic situation hard, we don't all go running out into the street and steal a Tv.

You brought up the term "race". You brought up the term "multiculturalism", even if you think the riots are a social problem.
And you misunderstood; I'm not trying to justify the riots, I'm just trying to understand why they are happening. Imo it takes two sides.

[Mercannis]

Funkcase wrote...

I do agree with that Mercannis, and slavery seems to have started by African's (Egypt)

But please people, lets not turn this into a race issue. The riots have nothing to do with race, there are plenty of caucasian people taking part too. We dont want this thread getting locked, and race shoudln't be a issue, alot of my best friends are black and asian, w are all human. One of the things I love about this country is how multi-cultured it is.

Ill be honest with you right here Funkcase, i dont believe for one minute that anyone cares which race the rioters are or arent. Even the right wing extremists dont give a toss they are attacking all rioters they arent picking and choosing.

The chav culture or as we call it here in Sotland the Neds (Non educated delinquents) has been a growing problem for more than a decade. In my home city of Glasgow it hasnt been safe to walk the streets at night for years and for those who think they only go for the weak im 6'2 and 230 lbs and my mate is 6'7 and god knows what weight and we got jumped a couple of times and had to crack some heads. They do it for fun and thats what many people dont comprehend, its for fun...thats all.

Modifié par Mercannis, 11 août 2011 - 12:02 .

[KenKenpachi]

Aye, at times its a fools errand to seek logic where none is to be found. Chaos and chance is more often a driving force than logic and reason. Its like when I just break something its not as I have a need or some problem to fix. I do it as I can and want too.

Some people are just born with a big hole in them, and all they know is how to take, take, and take. And the only thing that will fill that hole is the day they die. And some people are just naturally Mean. Or some see others as being below them. You can find people of all sorts among all classes and races. And either they don't want to be like you as shockingly as it sounds, just don't like you, or think its pay back time.

Have you never held a slight against the guy nextdoor to you? Have you never cheated someone or been cheated? Never walked out of a store with extra cash when the teller made a mistake? Never been in a fight, or bullied? Never sought vengance actively or in your mind? Never harmed another on mistake or purpose? And I highly doubt there was a logic to any of it, short of personal gratification or justifcation.

If you say you never have done any of these, then your either a liar, or a far better person than most. As Norway shows, even if you have what You see as "perfect" Someone else will hate it. And they will sooner or later act on it.

Modifié par KenKenpachi, 11 août 2011 - 12:22 .

[mulletduck]

Send in the reapers

[vometia]

KenKenpachi wrote...

Aye, at times its a fools errand to seek logic where none is to be found.

Actually someone did point out their rationale quite eloquently with the thoughtful comment "dem ain' give us no respeck innit."  Makes you think.

[Druss99]

nijnij wrote...

@Druss99 I'm not making excuses, as I said, violence is inexcusable, but if you want to fight it, you have to understand where it comes from.

The violence towards people is just wrong and pure douchebaggery. Now the looting is wrong too but it might have something to do with these people being nobody's, with no means to a decent future, and so they feel in order to be somebody in the eyes of their community they need possessions, because all you see on TV and in the street all day is just that, ads for stupid crap. That's all we value, how much one can afford. Of course they're opportunists, but I believe many middle class people would be in other contexts. Now the violence I'm disgusted with. But when it comes to the lootings it's just them being as materialistic as society tells them to be. Unless they're not even keeping the loot but just saying "f*ck" to Armani and co, and if that's the case, I see where they come from. I hope this all stops soon though since ultimately, the answer to such behaviour tends to be more discrimination instead of more understanding, so they're really not helping anything.

I see what your saying but these people are scum who want to be scum. They are the same chavs who hang around city centres harrassing shoppers, the same people who make housing estates unsafe at night, 90% of them have no intention of ever looking for a job. They have been getting away with it unchecked for years, everyone knows the streets belong to them. Now they have realised it too and they pushed their luck to see how far they could get. I can see why your saying what you are but they are just scum who want to be scum. Everything else is just an excuse for them.

I'm from the UK, despite my sig I'm in Northern Ireland which is part of the UK, I grew up on a housing estate like most of those people. I'm currently jobless with no hope of a job as theres none here and the wages being paid elsewhere wouldn't cover my travel or moving costs, theres hundreds applying for every job going. Never ever would I consider that a valid excuse to riot, loot, steal, mug or assault someone. However there is an element of society who will take any excuse to get up to those things because they consider it cool and fun and they think they will get away with it. Thats what the riots are about, anyone attaching any other significance to them is only fooling themselves.

For a month every summer over here we get constant riots, during the Protestant marching season from the 12th of July to the 12th of August theres rioting. Its been mildly quieter this year but the big one is usually August 12th. People do it claiming its in protest of Protestants marching through a Catholic area. Then you see the arrests, its kids as young as 9, its people coming from allover the country, its people saying they are doing it because they are offended as Catholics despite not even believing in god. Its not the residents of the area being marched through, its not staunch Catholics. Its simply people who want to riot and enjoy it, its people who see an opportunity and take it, just like the riots in England. Its that exact same element of society who are doing it because they enjoy it and think they will get away with it. There are people with religious and political agenda's who tend to stir the thing to get things started but its because they know that once it is started the mindless thuggery will come through and do their work for them. The exact same way the London riots started.

The chavs have gotten away with their behaviour for so long now that they are raising their kids to behave the same way. The streets belong to them now and this is just them finally realising it.

Also I just read that the police arrested one of the guys caught on video pretending to help a young injured lad then mugging him. Sony have also offered to replace the PSP he had stolen along with some games, as have namco-bandai. Which is good news in all of this.

Modifié par Druss99, 11 août 2011 - 02:46 .

[Therefore_I_Am]

Ryllen Laerth Kriel wrote...

Therefore_I_Am wrote...

There should've been a public announcement that looters would be shot on sight.

If they are going to act like primates, then they will be put down like primates.

I really hate violence, and I say that with all seriousness. But, I am prepared for it. I'm armed to the teeth and legally licensed to carry in over half the states in the union. I'll welcome anyone into my home as a friend, but if they intend to victimize me things will get ugly.

A right to bear arms makes for a more civilized society. It reminds me of a quote from the early Renaissance stating "One sword keeps another sword in it's sheath."

There is a reason why manners and politeness have vanished in modern society and entitlements and individualism run drain all our resources. I wish people would remember how brutal, miserable and short life can be and realize all we have are the briefest moments with each other in this state of life. At least it puts things in perspective for me.

I agree but unfortunatley I don't have any weapons in my apartment save a kitchen knife, although my father does have a pistol in his place. (just speaking as if this were to ever happen in the states)
It's horrendous what you'd have to resort to in order to make an example, and I realize it just brings more violence, but in the end either the streets will run red or they will face mass deportation, their businesses and careers going along with them... because as it looks, the conflicts will just keep going until either they are all gone, or if the british isle in its entirety is filled with immigrants, nothing else.

Modifié par Therefore_I_Am, 11 août 2011 - 04:25 .

[J0HNL3I]

Im just glad its calming down now, i think anyone found guilty of looting whose on benifits should have the benifits taken away.

[Ulous]

“The problem is, with a society which values products and profit over people, and possesions over personality. Do you expect people to have morality when our entire position in this world is based upon the normalisation of immorality on a mass scale? This is bigger than all of us, and bigger than this country. What type of world do we actually want to live in?

Looters did to the streets what our state has done to the rest of the world for over a century. “Might is right” is all we as citizens have been shown. Capitalism has taught our children to be motivated by instant gratification, to ego worship and to respect only violence. No person is born wanting to steal and fight police. Call them animals if it makes you feel better. Look at the reasons if you care about finding a solution.”

(taken from somewhere else but still very true)

[chunkyman]

Ulous wrote...
Capitalism has taught our children to be motivated by instant gratification, to ego worship and to respect only violence. 

(taken from somewhere else but still very true)

Err.... not very true. If anything, actual capitalism would be a solution to these kids problems. Socialist welfare programs often gives people this massive sense of entitlement and a notion that they inherently deserve something for nothing.

I grew up very poor, and I've seen many other people who lived on the government dole lose all sense of personal responsibility and work ethic. They trade food stamps for marijuana, never look for a real job, trash their government provided housing, and have the gall to complain that the government doesn't do enough. Typically, productive members of society don't riot and loot, it's punk kids and societal leeches that cause the problems. If people were forced to actually be productive citizens or go hungry, they would tend to develop a healthy attitude towards property rights and self reliance. 

Just my two cents anyways.

[Ulous]

chunkyman wrote...

Ulous wrote...
Capitalism has taught our children to be motivated by instant gratification, to ego worship and to respect only violence. 

(taken from somewhere else but still very true)

Err.... not very true. If anything, actual capitalism would be a solution to these kids problems. Socialist welfare programs often gives people this massive sense of entitlement and a notion that they inherently deserve something for nothing.

I grew up very poor, and I've seen many other people who lived on the government dole lose all sense of personal responsibility and work ethic. They trade food stamps for marijuana, never look for a real job, trash their government provided housing, and have the gall to complain that the government doesn't do enough. Typically, productive members of society don't riot and loot, it's punk kids and societal leeches that cause the problems. If people were forced to actually be productive citizens or go hungry, they would tend to develop a healthy attitude towards property rights and self reliance. 

Just my two cents anyways.

Capitalism depends upon materialism to survive that is an indisputable fact, if people stop spending money they don't have on things they don't need then the whole thing collapses. Also capitalism does not truly reward hard work and skill, if that was the case the richest person in the world would be the most hard working and skillful person in the world....... but as we all know that could not be more further from the truth, in fact your average rich person has very few skills that could benefit humanity outside of the financial arena.

I too grew up in an area with high unemployment, out of all my friends I was the only one to actually break free of the chains of that place, however I don't feel that gives me the right to beat down on them, I more than most understand how hard it is to get a job etc when you are from a certain place, infact my first job was through pure luck.

Also it is all good and well calling these people leeches but what about the bankers who have and will leech far more than any of these people ever could, yet they do not get punished......... they are rewarded and that is what causes all this.

Highest estimated cost of riots: £100m

Tax Avoidance by Vodafone: £6billion
Tax spent on Libyan intervention: £1 Billion
Tax avoidance in 2010 by richest people in UK: £7 Billion
Tax payers bill for banking crisis: £131 Billion
Tax money spent in Iraqi conflict: £4.5 billion
Tax money spent on Afghan conflict (up until 2007): £7 billion
Total MP expenses bill (2007) £87.6m

Modifié par Ulous, 11 août 2011 - 07:17 .

[chunkyman]

Ulous wrote...

Highest estimated cost of riots: £100m

Tax Avoidance by Vodafone: £6billion
Tax spent on Libyan intervention: £1 Billion
Tax avoidance in 2010 by richest people in UK: £7 Billion
Tax payers bill for banking crisis: £131 Billion
Tax money spent in Iraqi conflict: £4.5 billion
Tax money spent on Afghan conflict (up until 2007): £7 billion
Total MP expenses bill (2007) £87.6m

Some of those prices don't have anything to do with capitalism, like the cost of the wars or the cost of the banking crisis. Adam Smith would be turning in his grave if he saw all of the government intervention in banking and other sectors of the economy.

While it's true capitalism creates inequality, it's inequality as the result of overall prosperity. Socialism tends to create more equality, but at the price of overall misery. Examples of this can be seen comparing places like Hong Kong and China, The United States and The Soviet Union, East Germany and West Germany, and others.

[agesilaj12]

That's all nice and dandy. But you do realize that system in its form, where I live - good ol USA, is best described as communism for the "rich" and so called "free market" for the rest. All the risks are socialized and all (or most) of the profits privatized. Helluva system.....

[Ulous]

chunkyman wrote...

Ulous wrote...

Highest estimated cost of riots: £100m

Tax Avoidance by Vodafone: £6billion
Tax spent on Libyan intervention: £1 Billion
Tax avoidance in 2010 by richest people in UK: £7 Billion
Tax payers bill for banking crisis: £131 Billion
Tax money spent in Iraqi conflict: £4.5 billion
Tax money spent on Afghan conflict (up until 2007): £7 billion
Total MP expenses bill (2007) £87.6m

Some of those prices don't have anything to do with capitalism, like the cost of the wars or the cost of the banking crisis. Adam Smith would be turning in his grave if he saw all of the government intervention in banking and other sectors of the economy.

While it's true capitalism creates inequality, it's inequality as the result of overall prosperity. Socialism tends to create more equality, but at the price of overall misery. Examples of this can be seen comparing places like Hong Kong and China, The United States and The Soviet Union, East Germany and West Germany, and others.

Hmm maybe and maybe not, you could argue that war is to keep capitalism going.(but that is another discussion)

As for socialism I do not concern myself with such things, I don't believe just because i'm anti capitalism/monetarism that i'm a socialist, that is just political labelling that I want no part of. But with that said I find it stange how people associate country's like China and the old Soviet Union as being communist/socialist, they are and were just military dicatorships that were based on tyranical rule that have/had very few examples of equality, i'm sorry but that is not communism or socialism.

I honestly believe that the human race have to rise above and abolish politics, replacing it with a system that actually works for everyone, yes that is idealism but then so were many things that we take for granted these days.

[LTD]

chunkyman wrote...



Adam Smith would be turning in his grave if he saw all of the government intervention in banking and other sectors of the economy. 

Socialism tends to create more equality, but at the price of overall
misery. Examples of this can be seen comparing places like Hong Kong and
China, The United States and The Soviet Union, East Germany and West
Germany, and others.

I say Mister Smith should be kept spinning then. Might even be some way to turn all that motion into free, clean energy.  World where government does keep certain sectors of economy under varying amounts of control sounds much less terrifying than a corporate ran cold hell where paramedics check your wallet before pulse.

It is very easy to see socialism in terribly  bad light if you choose to have such extreme and obsolete  examples and comparsions.  Pure,cold capitalism where amount of money defines your human value  seems best thing since  sliced bread if you choost to compare it to something as dysfunctional and dead as East Germany or North Korea.

If you really want to see modern, sanely applied socialism in action you should look into Nordic countries/Scandinavia. Most of em feature economy and certain structures of society approaching communism if you  compare 'em with economy/society in  U.S.A for example.

Modifié par LTD, 11 août 2011 - 08:37 .

[Agamo45]

Ulous wrote...

“The problem is, with a society which values products and profit over people, and possesions over personality. Do you expect people to have morality when our entire position in this world is based upon the normalisation of immorality on a mass scale? This is bigger than all of us, and bigger than this country. What type of world do we actually want to live in?

Looters did to the streets what our state has done to the rest of the world for over a century. “Might is right” is all we as citizens have been shown. Capitalism has taught our children to be motivated by instant gratification, to ego worship and to respect only violence. No person is born wanting to steal and fight police. Call them animals if it makes you feel better. Look at the reasons if you care about finding a solution.”

(taken from somewhere else but still very true)

I think that the welfare state and socialism has more to do with why these leeches feel so entitled. They've lived on welfare their whole lives and now that the checks are drying up somewhat, they're angry that they might actually have to work for a change. So they take their anger out on "the rich", by which they mean of course the middle class. And interestingly enough, if you want to talk about race the fact is that there are very few Muslims among the rioters. Many Muslims are business owners and are trying to defend their livelihoods. And they're not rich by any means, they barely break even. These rioters are being pushed from behind by white communist bums. As for how to solve it, I think getting their heads bashed in by police batons would solve the problem.

[Volus Warlord]

Wow.. some people are really working hard to rationalize this.

[agesilaj12]

Nobody is rationaluzing thugs and hoodlums, don't see where you got that. Btw who are "entitled leeches", you can't be talking about "royals"?

[Inquisitor Recon]

Is Raytheon still working on those microwave crowd dispersal systems? Now here is a good use for that.

[vometia]

Actually, never mind.

Modifié par vometia, 12 août 2011 - 01:07 .

[stewie1974]

There's no excuse.

The poor broken disenfranchised youths who are blighted by poverty.

I'd hardly call it poverty the conditions they live in.... they were organising the riots via blackberry phones.

As for why it spread. I blame gang culture. It's a post code war . If SE18 don't big up , then NW2 will see them as weak, and they can't lose face.

Once you understand the fact is the kids were not ANGRILY protesting, I live in an area affected by the looting, like literally standing on my doorstep I could see the crowds laughing, chanting, smiling, not one bit of ANGER at the system was being expressed. They were clearly having sick, demented fun.

I don't want to hear about Mark Dugan... it wasn't about that, sure it was the catalyst, in tottenham, but when that demonstration turned into looting, the rest of london and other cities were not looting out of protest at an armed drug dealer getting shot by an officer, they were not protesting anything. They had to compete with the tottenham gangs and maybe nab a playstation or wii in the process.

I sincerly hope that there is some way the serial numbers of stolen games from outlets can be banned from activation.

But more sincerly I hope that people don't begin to feel sorry for these gangs.There are immigrant communities and homeless people in britian that have it far, far, far worse than these "poor" youth who are organising the riots via blackberry phones.

These wanton acts of destruction, have cost lives, livlihoods, made people homeless and unemployed and will cost the tax payer 200 million at least...

They looted private bussinesses too... not many insurance companies cover riots...

My council tax will no doubt go up, My insurance premiums will no doubt go up. I still have a job as they didn't burn my place of work thankfully....

But if your complaint is genuinely

"No council services for youth"
"No employment oppurtunitys for youth"
"Poverty"

Then don't destroy the local community meaning further cuts.
Don't destroy local employeers
Don't organise riots on blackberry phones

But on the otherhand, If it's just about getting respect from the other hoods by showing how ard you are and aving a ruck with da feds ((their language, not mine, they actually are so thick and influenced by american gang culture, they call our police officers the feds)).... A lot of these looters then stick pictures of selves on facebook, with loot, and tweet about what they've done, so they can get some "mad respec" from their peers...

Gang Culture is what caused this... Youth implies all youth, but it's not, I met some nice youth from equally disadvantous backgrounds who were involved in the clean up opperations.

To say all youth are affected by this is true
To say all youth were doing this is false.

Modifié par stewie1974, 12 août 2011 - 02:25 .

[Ulous]

Agamo45 wrote...


“I think that the welfare state and socialism has more to do with why these leeches feel so entitled. They've lived on welfare their whole lives and now that the checks are drying up somewhat, they're angry that they might actually have to work for a change. So they take their anger out on "the rich", by which they mean of course the middle class. And interestingly enough, if you want to talk about race the fact is that there are very few Muslims among the rioters. Many Muslims are business owners and are trying to defend their livelihoods. And they're not rich by any means, they barely break even. These rioters are being pushed from behind by white communist bums. As for how to solve it, I think getting their heads bashed in by police batons would solve the problem.

Firstly where does the incentive to work come from? First let us take your average single man who get s a job minimum wage, after income tax he will pick up around £170.00p.

Rent for the week on a council/housing association house/flat £70-£80 per week.

Council Tax around £25 per week

In winter gas, water and electric bill for the week £20-£30 per week

Food bill £30 - £60 per week depending on how well you eat.

Cost of travel to work for the week on public transport £10 per week. (I say public transport because as you can see running a car would be impossible.

That pretty much puts us at the earners maximum.......... so whats the point in working? This person would have no luxuries, I would say having a computer and internet is a necessity these days but even that would be impossible on this sort of wage. But wait! he could get a credit card and get himself in debt he can't pay back and that is exactly what they want us to do........ be in debt all the time so they can keep their corrupt pyramid system going.

As for the police baton thing? I sincerely hope yourself or any of your family do not suffer becaue of people like you demanding police brutality on our streets.
 

Modifié par Ulous, 12 août 2011 - 05:15 .

[Aeowyn]

Ulous wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...


“I think that the welfare state and socialism has more to do with why these leeches feel so entitled. They've lived on welfare their whole lives and now that the checks are drying up somewhat, they're angry that they might actually have to work for a change. So they take their anger out on "the rich", by which they mean of course the middle class. And interestingly enough, if you want to talk about race the fact is that there are very few Muslims among the rioters. Many Muslims are business owners and are trying to defend their livelihoods. And they're not rich by any means, they barely break even. These rioters are being pushed from behind by white communist bums. As for how to solve it, I think getting their heads bashed in by police batons would solve the problem.

Firstly where does the incentive to work come from? First let us take your average single man who get s a job minimum wage, after income tax he will pick up around £170.00p.

Your nice list stopped right there.  £170 for a man working full-time on minimum wage? Please....

[Druss99]

Aeowyn wrote...

Ulous wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...


“I think that the welfare state and socialism has more to do with why these leeches feel so entitled. They've lived on welfare their whole lives and now that the checks are drying up somewhat, they're angry that they might actually have to work for a change. So they take their anger out on "the rich", by which they mean of course the middle class. And interestingly enough, if you want to talk about race the fact is that there are very few Muslims among the rioters. Many Muslims are business owners and are trying to defend their livelihoods. And they're not rich by any means, they barely break even. These rioters are being pushed from behind by white communist bums. As for how to solve it, I think getting their heads bashed in by police batons would solve the problem.

Firstly where does the incentive to work come from? First let us take your average single man who get s a job minimum wage, after income tax he will pick up around £170.00p.

Your nice list stopped right there.  £170 for a man working full-time on minimum wage? Please....

That is around the right number. Depends on hours, tax and national insurance payments but it ends up around there. I worked for minimum wage in a job last year and got around £170 on the weeks there was enough work to do full time hours.

[KenKenpachi]

vometia wrote...

KenKenpachi wrote...

Aye, at times its a fools errand to seek logic where none is to be found.

Actually someone did point out their rationale quite eloquently with the thoughtful comment "dem ain' give us no respeck innit."  Makes you think.

lol that someone is obviously retarded?