59 réponses à ce sujet

[Collider]

Take note that not all of this is how I feel personally, but more of how
I imagine some players feel.
-
I'm really more inclined to say that the hate (as opposed to dislike) specifically for the male leads has more
to do with certain elements of the playerbase than Bioware's writing. Male rivalry, for example.But you can change the writing, you can't change society. And it's not just limited to hate. Many people simply dislike or are apathetic about certain characters.

Here are a few suggestions for Bioware
1.Players want the relationship with the male lead to matter. The problem
with Kaidan was that you never really get to gain much ground with him
as male Shepard. At best, you're sort of vaguely friends.
Thus, (some) people feel like they are wasting their time. People don't like to feel
like they wasted their time. With every other squad mate in ME1 you can
feel their relationship with you clearly evolving.

Wrex comes to respect you, Tali notes how good you've been to her (if you have), Liara's got her interest in you, you can teach Garrus something, and you slowly become more and more informal with Ashley.
You do get a little less informal with Kaidan on the non-romance path, but for the most part it's still largely just business. The problem with that is that just business is where you started. It's always point A.

This was also a problem with Jack in ME2. If you are female Shepard (or don't romance her), she tells you to go away. Note: Before someone compares this to what the other squad mates in ME2 say, there's a
huge difference between "I've got some work to do. Let's talk later"
& "Go away and don't come back again" the latter of which is what Jack says. Thus you're back to square one with Jack.

2. People respect and admire competency. Even if you don't like the other person,
you may respect them for their ability and their cause.
That is not to say at all that Kaidan is incompetent. But you are really never shown
his skills and why he's useful to the team. At best, you're told that
he's a decorated officer and powerful biotic. But you never see his
leadership experience (No - random voice clips from Virmire don't count)
and you never see his impressive biotics. Gameplay is of course not on
the same level as a cutscene.

When Kaidan is revealed in the game for the first time, all he is doing is *something* in the cockpit
and arguing with Joker. Joker overshadows Kaidan easily, his personality
jumps off the page. You may say that this makes sense since Kaidan is
supposed to be a sort of reserved character, but every good character
has something that makes them stand out. In the beginning of the game,
Kaidan's just some random dude, really.

When Kaidan is put into squad, he goes from random dude to random soldier. Not much of an improvement. Unlike Jenkins, you're not really given a reason to care about Kaidan. This is because you know literally nothing about Kaidan at that point. With Jenkins, on the other hand, you know about his background, his goals, and his motivations concerning the mission and why he joined the Alliance. I'm not saying that Jenkins is "better" thanKaidan, but they certainly made you care about him a lot more in the very beginning of the game. You actually get a conversation with Jenkins, for one.

And if Kaidan had died instead of Jenkins? That would have been less emotional, because you knew less about Kaidan and didn't have any particular reason to fear for his mortality anyway.

When you meet Ashley, unlike Kaidan yet again, you get some background from her. What happened to her, her
goals, her past, and her motivations. You get a decent grip on her personality, unlike Kaidan who is still not jumping off the page.

So when DO you get a decent sense of Kaidan's background? After the Citadel quest is done and you've been made a Spectre. So that's hours into the game that he's been a squad mate and you nearly have NO idea who this person is and why you should care. At best, he's a soldier who just happened to be on the ship at the time of the Eden Prime operaton. Not only that, you've just jumped many ranks above Kaidan from becoming a spectre. So he's made further redundant.

You might say - but you also knows that he's a biotic. But at that point in the game, you don't really know what the deal is with biotics and the surrounding lore. It's just space magic so far.

When Kaidan does tell you about biotic abilities, there's nothing to back them up but gameplay, which for most people is probably not very convincing. What I mean by that is that there is not cutscene where Kaidan shows his biotics and gives proof to the claims of being powerful. All of the other squad mates have a cutscene where you see them use their one of their central skills. Ashley - well, when you meet her she's doing soldier stuff. Tali - tech grenade, and using omnitool. Garrus - precision shot with pistol, doing officer stuff. Wrex - Intimidating people, getting in trouble with police. Liara may or may not count, since she's in that bubble and not doing anything, but you could say that it showed that she was fiddling around with the prothean ruin controls.

In essence the biggest problem with Kaidan's abilities are that you're told and not shown. What is he doing on the Normandy? Doing *something* to *something*. He never talks about what he's doing under the orange light to the orange flashy thing. Better than just standing around staring at it, I suppose.

So, the question is - why on earth is this guy on the mission again? Just because Anderson says so?

If you look at the other squad mates, they all have more easily definable motivations for the mission. Everyone but Kaidan has some tie to Saren. Ashley had her squad wiped out by Saren's geth, and she wants to prove herself and prove that humanity can stand strong. Tali was hunted down by Saren and wants to prove herself to her people. Wrex once worked for Saren, his employer the Shadow Broker wants Saren dead, he wants to get into the action, and he wants to for once use his powerful experience as a warlord to do something good. Liara's mother was manipulated by Saren, and the whole story reveals around the protheans. Garrus investigated
Saren, and wants to prove that his method of justice is what's right.

Kaidan? He just wants to do some good. That's all you learn after several hours with him. That's it.
His experience with Vrynus ultimately didn't serve to shift his opinions on Turian away from the rather indifferent/neutral "they're all saints or jerks, just like us." So there's not even a connection there.
In theory, soldier who just wants to do his duty/job could work. I'm not saying that it can't. But if that's the character's general goal, you should make sure to diversify them in other ways early so they don't seem generic for too long. They made the player wait too long to learn about Kaidan.

So many people very plausibly could go through the game and feel like they're carrying Kaidan, wondering he's in the squad, or not really being interested in him.
a. He has nearly nothing to do with the plot.
b. You're not really given a reason to care about him.
c.You don't know what he's really adding to the team. Sure, there's
Virmire - but you get to leave him behind shortly afterward. The leadership skill he shows there doesn't have time to sink in. And he's inviting you to abandon him. On the Normandy you don't know what the heck he's doing.
d. His biotic, leadership, and tech skills are told, but not shown.

Alot of these things apply to Jacob. And some of them apply to non-LIs and love interests you aren't romancing.
The long and short of it is that you feel like you're wasting your time with someone you don't really care about.
-
Look at the most popular male squad mates for male players. Wrex & Garrus.
1. You can be "bros" with them.
2. Your relationship with them matters. If you do Wrex's personal quest he will automatically back down on Virmire. If you persuade him to back down you can tell that he greatly respects Shepard. Going from grumpy lizard to considering Shepard an old friend is an important distinction. With Garrus you can act as a mentor to him. It doesn't result in much different in ME2 (remains to be seen for ME3), but at the time in ME1 it felt like what you said
actually mattered.
3. Their skills are shown and not just told to you. When you meet Wrex (with a massive battle scar on his face) he's
either intimidating C-sec officers or Fist's thugs. He isn't scared of them one iota. If you bring Wrex with you to Fist he'll just brutally shoot him down. On Virmire Wrex directly challenges you. It's easy to be convinced that Wrex is a "badass." When you meet Garrus he can tell he really wants to take Saren down. When you meet Garrus again, he manages to shoot and kill the thug holding Michel hostage without her getting a scratch. Already then, you can call
Garrus "sharpshooter renegade cop." After the same amount of time you've known Kaidan, Kaidan's just...someone. Just a well mannered soldier, really.
-
All that said, Kaidan (of ME1) is one of my favorite characters. If you've been reading intently, you can tell that the problem has less to do with Kaidan himself so much as how they presented him (or more specifically, lack of presentation). So, unless the character itself is subpar, the majority of the question actually has to do with how well the gift wrapping for the character looks. To some, there may be gold inside the box, but if the box looks drab and common on the outside, many people are instinctively going to look at the other more decorated boxes first. So - they really need to grab people.

I think KOTOR, ME1, ME2 (haven't finished Jade Empire or Baldur's Gate, share your insight on them if you like) showed some clear bias towards the female lead over the male lead. Dragon Age: Origins was more equal - both Alistair & Morrigan mattered, and were arguably just as important & center as each other. Notice that Alistair tends to be more popular among male gamers than Kaidan, Jacob, Carth.

I take that the male/female lead disparity in some Bioware games may partly be because the creators are assuming that selling the male leads isn't really as important (if much at all) as selling the female leads, and that the male leads will be popular enough anyway by virtue of being love interests for female players/player characters. This sort of mindset is not good, and the fanbase has already shown that they want all characters to be valid and interesting even if you're not romancing them.

It's worth mentioning that Ashley/Kaidan are not completely independent of each other. But they put more effort into separating Ashley from Kaidan than they did separating Kaidan from Ashley.

The lead males don't have to be the favorites of almost only female players who romance them if Bioware
does things right. And non-romanced characters don't have to be so overshadowed by those that are romanced. Note that this thread isn't specifically about any one character. It has more to do with the trend of less and/or less interesting content with characters who you don't romance or can't be romanced anyway.

In a few words, here is the (part of the) solution to the problem. Don't focus on romance so much. Let players be able to avoid romance easily if they choose and still have a satisfying time interacting with the characters on their friendship (or rivalry) path. The relationship still needs to be distinctive and evolving without any romance active. The content should also not severely truncated just because you aren't in a romance with them. No more Garrus calibrations.

Modifié par Collider, 10 août 2011 - 05:27 .

[Unpleasant Implications]

So basically what you're saying is Kaidan and Jacob are bland compared to the other squadmates? I'm sorry, I think I may have lost you're meaning in your post. Otherwise you're just preaching to the choir.

Modifié par Unpleasant Implications, 10 août 2011 - 02:00 .

[lazuli]

You've got some good points in there, Collider, but the formatting is getting in the way of your message, due in no small part to BSN's inadequacies.

[George-Kinsill]

Very good argument. There are few things that irritated me more in ME2 than the "calibrations" Garrus was constantly performing, especially when I endured countless loading screens getting to the level Garrus was on in my first play through, only t discover that he only had 3 conversations.

And you nailed it with your analysis of Kaiden. In all my maleshep playthroughs, I can never bring myself to save Kaiden on Virmire as I don't feel a relationship with him. He's more of an aquatance, and has the potential to be a dynamic character, but is never presented as such. If BW could simply do more conversations like with Thane as maleshep, the male lead would be a lot better, and I would then care about him.

[jeweledleah]

C - the problem with your post at least is that you have this paragraph too far down

Kaidan (of ME1) is one of my favorite characters. If you've been reading intently, you can tell that the problem has less to do with Kaidan himself so much as how they presented him (or more specifically, lack of presentation). So, unless the character itself is subpar, the majority of the question actually has to do with how well the gift wrapping for the character looks. To some, there may be gold inside the box, but if the box looks drab and common on the outside, many people are instinctively going to look at the other more decorated boxes first. So - they really need to grab people.

which in a way also illustrates the problem with presentation of Kaidan and Jacob. people will read your posts and like the very first reply, will decide that you are just another person claiming that they are bland and boring.

I agree with a lot of your points, incidentally, but I just wanted to point this particular thing out, because well - you just did exactly the same thing is the bioware really

[outmane]

Collider wrote...

I take that the male/female lead disparity in some Bioware games may partly be because the creators are assuming that selling the male leads isn't really as important (if much at all) as selling the female leads, and that the male leads will be popular enough anyway by virtue of being love interests for female players/player characters. This sort of mindset is not good, and the fanbase has already shown that they want all characters to be valid and interesting even if you're not romancing them.

It's worth mentioning that Ashley/Kaidan are not completely independent of each other. But they put more effort into separating Ashley from Kaidan than they did separating Kaidan from Ashley.

The lead males don't have to be
the favorites of almost only female players who romance them if Bioware
does things right. And non-romanced characters don't have to be so overshadowed by those that are romanced. Note that this thread isn't specifically about any one character. It has more to do with the trend of less and/or less interesting content with characters who you don't romance or can't be romanced anyway.

In a few words, here is the (part of the) solution to the problem. Don't focus on romance so much. Let players be able to avoid romance easily if they choose and still have a satisfying time interacting with the characters on their friendship (or rivalry) path. The relationship still needs to be distinctive and evolving without any romance active. The content should also not severely truncated just because you aren't in a romance with them. No more Garrus calibrations.

Nice argument there Collider. As a female gamer, i feel like there bold part is wher you went wrong. That is, I dont think the writers believe male lead characters arent important as much as they dont knowe how to make male lead interesting to both male playerbase AND female players looking for a LI for their FemShep. A good exemple of that is how the (mostly female) fanbase managed to have Garrus as LI in ME2 even if he wasnt designed for that in ME1. To me, the writers seem to have been taken by surprise by both the attachment of male players (going so far as nicknaming him Garrus BROkarian) and female players (all those shirtless fanarts) for a male character that wasnt supposed to get as much attention. In short, I think it might be a case of not knowing how to present an interesting male lead who doesnt overpower the player character (which both Alistair and Garrus are a good exemple of) more then an assumption that male leads arent very important.

Other then that I fully agree that romancable characters need a defined frienship/rivalery path so you do not just get 1 conversation out of them after their LM liek in ME2. I did appreciate alot how Ash and Kaidan had an opinion on every mission, even if you wer not specially friendly to them. It doesnt need to be the same system as DA2 but ME3, as the final art of a triology, shouldnt be afraid to let the player aprove of some characters and burn bridges with others.

[SlottsMachine]

I think if Kaidan had a more lively VA there would have been a lot less hate. And I don't think you can draw comparisons from the response to human or alien characters, as people tend not to judge alien characters as harshly.

[outmane]

well both male leads were human so its hard to say if its beacause ppl tend not to judge alien too arshly or just because both game had the same problem with male leads that are also LIs

[SlottsMachine]

I was encompassing all the characters in regards to humans being judged harsher than aliens. As Samara is the only alien character that gets a lot of hate focused on her, but Ashley, Miranda, Jack, Jacob, and Kaidan all spawn numerous hate threads.

[Seboist]

The main problem with Kaidan was that he was a bit too soft spoken, otherwise his characterization is no worse than Garrus' (who would be hated more if he was human). He also had better characterization than Tali who beyond being a Geth/Quarian encyclopedia had minimal development.

Jacob on the other hand is an abysmally handled character. His personality and background are utterly bland and he has nothing of interest to say. I've done several ME2 playthroughs and the only noteworthy thing about him that I can remember is some brief and vague mention of him being in the Corsairs. If he was a buddy like Alistair that the player could relate to (being Alliance turned Cerberus) instead of being a brooder who talks and says absolutely nothing he would have been better received.

Modifié par Seboist, 10 août 2011 - 03:23 .

[Seboist]

GeneralSlotts193 wrote...

I was encompassing all the characters in regards to humans being judged harsher than aliens. As Samara is the only alien character that gets a lot of hate focused on her, but Ashley, Miranda, Jack, Jacob, and Kaidan all spawn numerous hate threads.

That's true, if Garrus was human in ME1 he would have recieved as much hate as Kaidan and labeled a "whiner".

[Collider]

Sorry about the formatting. BSN doesn't seem to like copy and paste.

So basically what you're saying is Kaidan and Jacob are bland compared to the other squadmates? I'm sorry, I think I may have lost you're meaning in your post. Otherwise you're just preaching to the choir.

No, that's exactly what I'm not really saying. My point isn't that they are bland (I don't believe they are, anyway), but that their friendship path doesn't give the player nearly as much depth and interest as their romances. And that they are overshadowed by their female counterpart and are not presented as well as other characters. When I say presentation, I'm referring to the amount and type of content pertaining to them, and when they occur. Kaidan doesn't have a nice cutscene introduction like just about every other character, and you have to wait maybe hours into the game before you learn anything interesting about him.

I also refer to you to this paragraph:

Kaidan (of ME1) is one of my favorite characters. If you've been reading intently, you can tell that the problem has less to do with Kaidan himself so much as how they presented him (or more specifically, lack of presentation). So, unless the character itself is subpar, the majority of the question actually has to do with how well the gift wrapping for the character looks. To some, there may be gold inside the box, but if the box looks drab and common on the outside, many people are instinctively going to look at the other more decorated boxes first. So - they really need to grab people.

But I should have put that paragraph earlier in the post as Jeweledleah said, since people are going to get the wrong impressions otherwise. I did make the same mistake I was criticizing

Very good argument. There are few things that irritated me more in ME2 than the "calibrations" Garrus was constantly performing, especially when I endured countless loading screens getting to the level Garrus was on in my first play through, only t discover that he only had 3 conversations.

And you nailed it with your analysis of Kaiden. In all my maleshep playthroughs, I can never bring myself to save Kaiden on Virmire as I don't feel a relationship with him. He's more of an aquatance, and has the potential to be a dynamic character, but is never presented as such. If BW could simply do more conversations like with Thane as maleshep, the male lead would be a lot better, and I would then care about him.

I agree. With Thane, you can feel the relationship evolve over time and you become friends with him.

I think for some people, an alien character may be inherently more interesting to them. But I don't really think that making Kaidan, etc an alien would have conveniently solved all of the problems I've listed.

[Sepewrath]

I would disagree, first off with the whole "you saw people in their element" because you didn't. You saw Ashley shooting a gun? So what, everyone shoots guns, the same applies to Garrus. You saw Wrex talking to some cops, none of his legendary badassery of fighting to death on collapsing space stations, grenades has nothing to do with tech skills and everyone uses an omni tool.

And of course you were suppose to feel something for Jenkins when he died, if it were Kaidan in that spot, he would have gotten set up for the empathy death instead of Jenkins. You got all that on Jenkins because you weren't getting another chance, that was the point. And it doesn't matter if he doesn't have a personal reason, neither did Wrex, his job was kill Fist and then he just hung around. Your given any particular reason to care about anyone on you squad, unless their story personally resonates with you, on top of that, none of them are connected to the plot for more 15 seconds.

For the most part it sounds like your only interested in the grand finale of the relationship and the actual process of characterization is unimportant. It doesn't count unless he's you best buddy at the end? He is a fellow officer in the Alliance doing his job, he doesn't have to be your best friend. While I would agree with the final point, that there should be equal focus on platonic relationships as well as romances, a character doesn't need to be at one extreme or the other to be validated.

[mineralica]

Seboist wrote...

That's true, if Garrus was human in ME1 he would have recieved as much hate as Kaidan and labeled a "whiner".

And if Thane was human. Especially if he had VAs switched with Kaidan:P

To OP: just finished my first Jacobmance and can't agree with you more. Especially when we compare Jacob's introduction and Miranda's.

[Collider]

I would disagree, first off with the whole "you saw people in their element" because you didn't. You saw Ashley shooting a gun? So what, everyone shoots guns,

Shooting guns happens to be Ashley's specialty. She's a grunt. Ashley being good at shooting things is her "skill." Being a soldier is very inseparable from Ashley's character.

the same applies to Garrus.

Garrus manages to precisely shoot the man who was taking Michel hostage. It was a hostage situation, and that counts. An officer in a hostage situation. Shooting the man holding the doctor both shows his sharpshooting ability and gives the feeling of "renegade cop." It showed quite succinctly the general archetype of his character.

You saw Wrex talking to some cops, none of his legendary badassery of fighting to death on collapsing space stations,

You saw Wrex's intimidation, bravery, confidence, and lack of fear against authority.

grenades has nothing to do with tech skills and everyone uses an omni tool.

Sabotage is an obvious tech skill (according to ME1's RPG system) and is also a grenade.
Everyone uses an omnitool, but Tali used her omnitool for something more advanced than you see most others using in the games.

And of course you were suppose to feel something for Jenkins when he died, if it were Kaidan in that spot, he would have gotten set up for the empathy death instead of Jenkins.

Who's to say for certain? Bioware doesn't always put that much effort into trying to make the red shirt deaths emotional. Take Trask for example.

My message was that for too long in the game, you're given more background on Jenkins than you are Kaidan, who is actually a full squad mate.

And it doesn't matter if he doesn't have a personal reason, neither did Wrex, his job was kill Fist and then he just hung around.

I think it does matter. Every party member should have a reason for being in the party. Characters having goals is a very basic and integral part of characterization & writing in general.

Your given any particular reason to care about anyone on you squad, unless their story personally resonates with you, on top of that, none of them are connected to the plot for more 15 seconds.

I agree that everyone is different in regards to how much if all they care about certain characters.
But is it fair to say that most people who weren't particularly interested in Kaidan for romance cared more about the other ME1 squad mates in general? It might be.

For the most part it sounds like your only interested in the grand finale of the relationship and the actual process of characterization is unimportant.

No, of course not. My actual point was that there felt to be little to no process & development in the platonic relationship with Kaidan (and some other characters).
You don't actually have to be friends with the character at the end for the interactions to be worthwhile, no. What I was saying was that they shouldn't end (or maintain) the relationship on the same note as where it started, as that renders the interaction almost meaningless. In other words, character relationships should evolve.

I also reiterate this point: The problem is not so much Kaidan (or other characters) as how he's presented.

[SlottsMachine]

Yeah, I agree. Kaidan doesn't get an introduction at all let alone a proper one. Even Jacob has one, it wasn't the best but at least it was there.

As for Ashley's introduction, you saw her getting chased by a drone, stopping, spinning around, and shooting the drone as she falls on her back. WOW. Not to mention that guy getting impaled.

Modifié par GeneralSlotts193, 11 août 2011 - 03:55 .

[swordmalice]

Excellent points made and I agree. I was quite disappointed that, when playing ME2, I was unable to foster some kind of friendship/rivalry with Miranda just because I decided to not become romantically involved with her. Same goes for Jack and the rest of the squad.

The first game did a great job in this regard - after Ash and Liara confronted me to choose between them, I was still able to talk to Ash afterwards and move past that scenario. ME2?

"There's a lot to do Shepard; maybe another time". That, or Calibrations. Consistently.

With the severity of events that transpired after getting the Reaper IFF I would have expected my other sqaudmates to have SOME kind of reaction to it all. What about some post-SM dialogue with the survivors (if any)?

Non-romanced characters definitely need to have their own rapport with Shep. I truly hope Bioware takes this to heart with ME3.

Modifié par swordmalice, 11 août 2011 - 04:07 .

[Collider]

GeneralSlotts193 wrote...

Yeah, I agree. Kaidan doesn't get an introduction at all let alone a proper one. Even Jacob has one, it wasn't the best but at least it was there.

As for Ashley's introduction, you saw her getting chased by a drone, stopping, spinning around, and shooting the drone as she falls on her back. WOW. Not to mention that guy getting impaled.

True, it's not very impressive, but she still got one. The game makes something of a deal that you're recruiting her and she's on the team.
They don't really do that with Kaidan, he's just sort of there.

[Turian-Garrus92]

I like Kaidan and will be good to see him in ME3...

But never really liked Jacob... Just wasnt there for me... Sorry Jacob

[Inutaisho7996]

outmane wrote...

well both male leads were human so its hard to say if its beacause ppl tend not to judge alien too arshly or just because both game had the same problem with male leads that are also LIs

Aliens are inherently more intersting. Alien characters are, well, alien to the player. They have so much to teach the player about their culture that people automatically become more interested in them. Human characters really have to try harder to stand out.

[Estelindis]

Excellent analysis. I like Kaidan for who he is - in fact, his understated quality is one of my favourite features of his personality - but you do a good job of showing why he doesn't stand out to a lot of people.

[ChaplainTappman]

 I think the issue is less "male lead" and more with those two characters in particular. Both of them are kind of bland. Kaidan could be more interesting, but he chose to deal with his harsh experiences at BAaT by making himself bland. As for Jacob, he might've just been poorly handled by Bioware, but it seems to be part of his character too. He doesn't seem to react much to anything.

At the end of the day, though, the reason is simple: it would be a lot of time and work, meaning a lot of money, to create content that I suspect most players would never see. It'd be nice, but like Jacob says in his only good line, it'd be like pissing yourself in dark pants. I imagine, because I find myself doing it, that most people pretty much ignore squadmates other than their LI, especially in ME2 after their loyalty mission.

[LiaraShepard]

Okay, here's my personal opinion: Bioware will never make a male lead. All lead characters (or mighty and autonomous characters) have been female in Bioware games. Bastila in Star Wars Kotor, Kreia in Kotor 2, Silk Fox and Dawn Star (well, at least her background story was interesting and she can see ghosts) in Jade Empire. Ashley in Mass Effect, Miranda and Liara (new Shadow Broker) in Mass Effect 2, Morrigan and Flemeth in DA: Origins. Only in DA2 the female characters aren't more important or mighty than the males. But why are females often more powerful? It's because there are more male gamers out there and they don't want to have a competitor when it comes to the alpha male position. That's why nearly all 'first males' are tight-asses. Jacob, Kaidan, Carth Onasi (who was the male part to Bastila), Alistar and so on.

Can you imagine a guy who's as intuitive and independent and clever as Morrigan or Miranda? Not in Bioware games, as it seems...Bioware first guys are all servile and will be under the main characters alpha position. They're often a bit shy or unsure...or they are boring, because they're designed to be the nice guy and that was it. The first girls however are smart and autonomous, so that they are the perfect match to the male main character. And they often have a dark secret. It makes men feel like heroes if they get around with the female alpha character and make her soft.

Well, that's just my opinion. But I think it's time for a man, who's not under Shepards thumb, even when Shepard is the leader. I want a smart guy...maybe you'll tell me Garrus is smart, but as the dossiers of the Shadow Broker base said; he can't get his full potential under Shepards lead because Shepard is able to manipulate his opinion. The only tough guy is Zaeed, but he's just a dlc character and doesn't seem to be as professional as Miranda.

Oh btw, Carth, Sky and Thane already have children. Why do female players always get men with children who are quite older than the female characters that males get? Yes, because Bioware prefers female party members since most gamers are male and want a female that never had a really good relationship before.  

Modifié par LiaraShepard, 11 août 2011 - 11:23 .

[basbaker]

To the OP, you've obviously spent a lot of time thinking about this and it shows in your arguments. I agree with the majority of points you put forth. And if you read LiaraShepard's reply, I think you'll understand why the male "leads" are written as they are.

To LiaraShepard, I never even thought before about what you wrote, but after reading it (female's perspective here), I think it might be spot-on. And it might not even be intentional on the part of the developers; but then again it might. Whatever the case, it makes perfect sense. It also, unfortunately, leaves female gamers like me out in the cold when in comes to finding a compelling, strong-minded individual to be Shepard's equal rather than the self-effacing figure we're presented with in the form of Kaidan, or the lackluster personality we get with Jacob. After all, many of the same traits that make a male "alpha" are what females look for when they pursue a romance.

I have high hopes for ME3, considering that Kaidan out-ranks Shepard with the Alliance military and is her equal in the Council as a Spectre, that the character will have a stronger presentation. Like the OP, I enjoy Kaidan and like having him in my party. But if there had been a LI alternative to him in ME1 that came across as more of an equal to Shepard as an individual, honestly I'd have taken it.