59 réponses à ce sujet

[Clonedzero]

you know, you make alot of good points.

i never disliked kaidan at all. but for me, the rest of the cast overshadowed him significantly. ashley being the human LI gives her an easy lead in the whole "virmire" situation, garrus and wrex also push themselves to the front of the line with their immediate uniqueness. both being exotic aliens and having very distinct personalities.

i almost always save ashley, as do a majority of male players, but i still appreciate his character. so ill wanna check out how "bromancable" he is in ME3 before i commit a full series playthrough

[shepskisaac]

Collider wrote...

If you've been reading intently, you can tell that the problem has less to do with Kaidan himself so much as how they presented him (or more specifically, lack of presentation). So, unless the character itself is subpar, the majority of the question actually has to do with how well the gift wrapping for the character looks. To some, there may be gold inside the box, but if the box looks drab and common on the outside, many people are instinctively going to look at the other more decorated boxes first. So - they really need to grab people.

I think KOTOR, ME1, ME2 (haven't finished Jade Empire or Baldur's Gate, share your insight on them if you like) showed some clear bias towards the female lead over the male lead. Dragon Age: Origins was more equal - both Alistair & Morrigan mattered, and were arguably just as important & center as each other. Notice that Alistair tends to be more popular among male gamers than Kaidan, Jacob, Carth.

This could be a good tl;dr version. Yes, male characters tend to be presented less interestingly than female ones. But a reason why to it is like is different IMO than what you've said:

Collider wrote...

I take that the male/female lead disparity in some Bioware games may partly be because the creators are assuming that selling the male leads isn't really as important (if much at all) as selling the female leads, and that the male leads will be popular enough anyway by virtue of being love interests for female players/player characters. This sort of mindset is not good, and the fanbase has already shown that they want all characters to be valid and interesting even if you're not romancing them.

IMO, the disparity simply comes from the fact these males characters were written by (straight) male writers. As simple as that. And I believe they're not doing it on purpouse. IMO they're doing it unconsciously, simply from the fact of the nature that they're male & straight. When prepping presentations of female leads, they're inserting fantasies of "kick-ass hot babes" they have themselves. They're simply naturally more invested personally in creating a nice, attractive package around female leads. Many people think Miranda ass-shots were done to appeal to the straight male players. Honestly? I think BioWare guys did them just as much for themselves and their own fun/pleasure as they did it to cater to the male fanbase with a sex appeal.

[ChaplainTappman]

basbaker wrote...

...considering that Kaidan out-ranks Shepard with the Alliance military and is her equal in the Council as a Spectre...

Kaidan doesn't outrank Shepard, unless Shepard has been demoted or Kaidan is promoted between ME2 and ME3. In a fully-staffed military chain of command such as the pre-Eden Prime Normandy, the XO is one rank below the CO, making Shepard a Staff Commander, same as Kaidan when they meet on Horizon.

Kaidan could, in a sense, "outrank" Shepard as a Spectre. While there's no codified rank structure, the degree of trust the Council places in each individual Spectre could act as a sort of informal rank. As Kaidan has a non-confrontational personality and a pro-Council political attitude, he's likely to be trusted more by the Council than Shepard.

[Not Bambi]

ChaplainTappman wrote...

Kaidan doesn't outrank Shepard, unless Shepard has been demoted or Kaidan is promoted between ME2 and ME3. In a fully-staffed military chain of command such as the pre-Eden Prime Normandy, the XO is one rank below the CO, making Shepard a Staff Commander, same as Kaidan when they meet on Horizon.

Shepard is a Lieutenant Commander. 

OT:  I agree with OP, I like Kaidan when I'm romancing him, but you don't get much personality from him when you aren't.  Even with Ashley, you get to hear about her family and her life, and her dialogue doesn't suffer by not being romanced the same way.  Even though the human male gets this the most, the second game had the same problems with Jack and Miranda for me, since I rarely play as a male. 

[frostajulie]

I too wish more time would be spent on the friendship path. I have never played a male in ME1 and All my femsheps are all over Kaiden but I totally get you with Jack and if they gimped Male sheps relationship to Kaiden the way femshep got gimped with Jack I fully agree. Kaiden should have asked Man shep for a drink and gotten into a barfight or something to show off his biotic skills. Sure wish femshep could invite jack out for a drink.

[shepskisaac]

Not Bambi wrote...

Shepard is a Lieutenant Commander. 

OT:  I agree with OP, I like Kaidan when I'm romancing him, but you don't get much personality from him when you aren't.  Even with Ashley, you get to hear about her family and her life, and her dialogue doesn't suffer by not being romanced the same way.

Urhm, yes you do get his personality even if playing as ManShep. He only has one conversation less than with FemShep, mostly covering few family bits that don't really play big role (unlike family plays in Ashley's story). Other than that, he tells everything to ManShep he does to FemShep, the entire Vyrnnus story, Rahna, Jump Zero, etc.

It wasn't even the point of the OP, but that it takes too much time to get to the point when he has dialogues for ManShep. But when you get to that, you can get to know him very well.

[Sepewrath]

@Collider

I'm not going to qoute that whole thing, but I did read it. The take home on these characters is, you saw what you wanted to see. Take the examples of Ashley and Garrus, your equating an amazing character introduction(or at least superior to Kaidan) to them shooting a gun. I mean for Garrus it would have been better to say that he was trying to protect the victims of criminals when you first saw him, like he was doing on Omega. But instead you took him firing  a single shot as a showing of his character. I would say that situation didn't respresent his character, because he's not the renegade cop, he is the idealistic, impressionable character, the one always looking for guidance.

Simply put when it comes to Kaidan and Ashley, they are the ones who gave the most about their lives and gave reason to the way they are, far more than any other the squad members. Like I said, the characters simply didn't resonate with people, but when it comes down to it, their presentation as a character, was actually far more superior to all the other characters. But since people did not like them, found the aliens more interesting or it just didn't click with them, people find fault with them.

LiaraShepard wrote...
Oh btw, Carth, Sky and Thane already
have children. Why do female players always get men with children who
are quite older than the female characters that males get? Yes, because
Bioware prefers female party members since most gamers are male and want
a female that never had a really good relationship before.  

I cant agree with that, that's unfair generalization, you choose three characters out of how many? No one in either of the Dragon Age game had kids and there are more male characters in the DA series which fit that motif than females. Then you got people like Jacob, Garrus and Kaidan, also falling into that "young, never had a good relationship" thing. So I think BW panders to all types with these romances, I just don't think there is much of a demand for mothers who abandoned their children(even though you get that with Samara) as much as the older guy routine.

[LiaraShepard]

Sepewrath wrote...

@Collider

I'm not going to qoute that whole thing, but I did read it. The take home on these characters is, you saw what you wanted to see. Take the examples of Ashley and Garrus, your equating an amazing character introduction(or at least superior to Kaidan) to them shooting a gun. I mean for Garrus it would have been better to say that he was trying to protect the victims of criminals when you first saw him, like he was doing on Omega. But instead you took him firing  a single shot as a showing of his character. I would say that situation didn't respresent his character, because he's not the renegade cop, he is the idealistic, impressionable character, the one always looking for guidance.

Simply put when it comes to Kaidan and Ashley, they are the ones who gave the most about their lives and gave reason to the way they are, far more than any other the squad members. Like I said, the characters simply didn't resonate with people, but when it comes down to it, their presentation as a character, was actually far more superior to all the other characters. But since people did not like them, found the aliens more interesting or it just didn't click with them, people find fault with them.

LiaraShepard wrote...
Oh btw, Carth, Sky and Thane already
have children. Why do female players always get men with children who
are quite older than the female characters that males get? Yes, because
Bioware prefers female party members since most gamers are male and want
a female that never had a really good relationship before.  

I cant agree with that, that's unfair generalization, you choose three characters out of how many? No one in either of the Dragon Age game had kids and there are more male characters in the DA series which fit that motif than females. Then you got people like Jacob, Garrus and Kaidan, also falling into that "young, never had a good relationship" thing. So I think BW panders to all types with these romances, I just don't think there is much of a demand for mothers who abandoned their children(even though you get that with Samara) as much as the older guy routine.

Well, In Kotor was only one guy to romance. He was quite older than Bastila and had a child. In Jade Empire was only one guy, he was older than the females und had a child. In Mass Effect are Kaidan (well, he has no child, but looks older than Ashley. However, I'm not sure about his age. Still, his personality doesn't seem to be energetic. It makes him old in a way I can't explain. But maybe it's just, because there's some uniqueness missing. Somehow he's quite boring. I know it seems to be very subjective, but on the other hand, it's like the thread-author said. Same goes for Jacob. Jacob may be young (even younger than Miranda, because she's actually middle old, only her genetic makes her young). But still, the energetic personality is missing. He doesn't say anything special. And Thane is 30? 40? I don't know, but he already has a child and always talks about death. Now, there's Garrus, he's the only energetic young man, because he still has this youthful power in himself. Yes, the guys in Dragon age are an exception. However, in my opinion, the male gamers get often either more youthful or good-looking characters, even when these are actually quite old, in general. And Samara (who isn't a full romance and still very sexy) doesn't change this. On the contrary, she seems to affirm this sexy old lady look.  But as I said, it's my personal opinion. Jacob and Kaidan aren't ugly. I just think they don't make a young impression, because they seem to stand in the background without development. I don't want to say, that female gamers just get men with children. But there's still a difference between the characters male gamers and female gamers get. It's hard to explain. Sry I'm not good in English. Maybe that's why I sound too unfair. I don't always find the right words.

Modifié par LiaraShepard, 12 août 2011 - 10:59 .

[ChaplainTappman]

Not Bambi wrote...

Shepard is a Lieutenant Commander. 

OT:  I agree with OP, I like Kaidan when I'm romancing him, but you don't get much personality from him when you aren't.  Even with Ashley, you get to hear about her family and her life, and her dialogue doesn't suffer by not being romanced the same way.  Even though the human male gets this the most, the second game had the same problems with Jack and Miranda for me, since I rarely play as a male. 

Ah. So I see. Somehow I missed that when looking at the wiki page, and I assumed a real world chain of command setup. Has anyone from Bioware explained that? Unless Lieutenant Commander and Staff Commander are the same pay grade, and simply have different responsibilities (like Corporals and Specialists in the US Army), that's a nonsensical gap in rank structure.

OT: Like I said, I think that lack of personality from Kaidan is part of his character. His method of coping with both L2 implant complications and the traumatic experience of BAaT is to withdraw from everyone. It takes Shepard romancing him to get him to open up more. Of course, the one time he really wears his heart on his sleeve is on Horizon, and I always want to beat the taste out of his mouth after that.

Jack is the same way, but obviously with a much harder edge. She could never trust anyone, so she lever learned to. With Miranda everything is 100% business. And I suspect she puts up that front with a non-romancing Shepard because he/she is challenging Miranda's perfectly planned and constructed life. She can feel her loyalty to Cerberus and the Illusive Man slipping, and she responds by resisting it, redoubling her efforts to put a wall between herself and Shepard.

The only weird one to me is still Jacob. His bland nature seems to be a representation of what the Shadow Broker's dossier calls "stabilizing elements of his personality." But I can't seem to care about him, in game he comes across as having no personality.

[LadyJaneGrey]

ChaplainTappman wrote...

The only weird one to me is still Jacob. His bland nature seems to be a representation of what the Shadow Broker's dossier calls "stabilizing elements of his personality." But I can't seem to care about him, in game he comes across as having no personality.

Have you tried taking him on different missions?  The extra dialogue and reactions help flesh him out.

[ChaplainTappman]

LadyJaneGrey wrote...

Have you tried taking him on different missions?  The extra dialogue and reactions help flesh him out.

To be fair, no I haven't. Every time I do, he dies an inordinate amount.

[jeweledleah]

ChaplainTappman wrote...

LadyJaneGrey wrote...

Have you tried taking him on different missions?  The extra dialogue and reactions help flesh him out.

To be fair, no I haven't. Every time I do, he dies an inordinate amount.

you need to spec him the right way and make sure he's using the correct weapon. (ME tends to randomly switch primary weapons for squadmates  - Garrus used to die like crazy for me.. and then I figured out that he was using Mattock instead of sniper rifle :/  both games actualy do that.  logging out also disables your ammo powers, evenif you were in the middle of the mission when you saved and logged)

here's a good guide http://social.biowar...1/index/5678892

Kaidna also suffered from squishy when specced wrong/before he gets any skillpoints syndrom, unfortunately.  Both characters are fantastic when used properly, they are just easier to screw up then some of the other squadmates.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 12 août 2011 - 04:07 .

[lovgreno]

^I of course agree what the person who is awesome enough to use She Hulk in their avatar. It is a challenge to use glass cannons or support powers instead of tanks in your squad. You got to keep them back and in cover and choose the right power for the right occasion. But when you get it right Kaidan for example can be awesome.

[LadyJaneGrey]

jeweledleah wrote...

ChaplainTappman wrote...

LadyJaneGrey wrote...

Have you tried taking him on different missions?  The extra dialogue and reactions help flesh him out.

To be fair, no I haven't. Every time I do, he dies an inordinate amount.

you need to spec him the right way and make sure he's using the correct weapon. (ME tends to randomly switch primary weapons for squadmates  - Garrus used to die like crazy for me.. and then I figured out that he was using Mattock instead of sniper rifle :/  both games actualy do that.  logging out also disables your ammo powers, evenif you were in the middle of the mission when you saved and logged)

here's a good guide http://social.biowar...1/index/5678892

Kaidna also suffered from squishy when specced wrong/before he gets any skillpoints syndrom, unfortunately.  Both characters are fantastic when used properly, they are just easier to screw up then some of the other squadmates.

Leah speaks truth. 

[Youknow]

^
Agreed, because I used nothing but Miranda and Jacob on Insanity the first time I played, and I didn't use upgrades (because it was a bet from a friend that I would lose my sanity from playing that way), and it worked wonderfully. Jacob is not a bad guy, and even has some extra things in some missions like Grunt's where he looks at Sheperd like "Was the really necessary" when you scare off the merc. Kaidan is a cool guy as well. It's just that they don't have particularly aggressive personalities which is why people often forget about them.

The thing that gets me about Kaidan and Jacob though, is people claim that they don't have character development. They do, what people are complaining about, is the fact that the character is static, when they want a dynamic one. Which really bothers me, because a cast filled with dynamic characters becomes predictable, hammy, and annoying. They confuse character's having a colorful past with "depth" when that's not entirely true. Sometimes a character that doesn't change much can be just as interesting. A character like Sheperd can be a largely static character if the player chooses to, yet no one would call Sheperd a boring character.

And yes, I'll agree that Kaidan and Jacob are easy to mess up in their builds... But the way some people complain that there aren't enough RPG elements, you'd think that would be a good thing!

For the male leads, I don't think there's anything wrong with them. I think it's just the fanbase being the real whiners.

[outmane]

IsaacShep wrote...

IMO, the disparity simply comes from the fact these males characters were written by (straight) male writers. As simple as that. And I believe they're not doing it on purpouse. IMO they're doing it unconsciously, simply from the fact of the nature that they're male & straight. When prepping presentations of female leads, they're inserting fantasies of "kick-ass hot babes" they have themselves. They're simply naturally more invested personally in creating a nice, attractive package around female leads. Many people think Miranda ass-shots were done to appeal to the straight male players. Honestly? I think BioWare guys did them just as much for themselves and their own fun/pleasure as they did it to cater to the male fanbase with a sex appeal.

Id have to somewhat agree with that. Not that i think writers are sexists but simply that its easier for them to write strong female leads then strong male leads. It not only about what male and female players want in a romancable character but also what kind of lead NPC makes them feel like their character is the main protagonist. IMO thats why we have characters like Kaidan, Jacob and Alistair with not much backbone / initiative so they dont threaten the player in his Savior role (its agood game mechanism as of why they dont just quit and save the world on their own term at the first disagreement). On the other hand, those characters are reliable and listen to/care for the protagonist which tends to be qualities appreciated by many female players.

[LadyJaneGrey]

outmane wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

IMO, the disparity simply comes from the fact these males characters were written by (straight) male writers. As simple as that. And I believe they're not doing it on purpouse. IMO they're doing it unconsciously, simply from the fact of the nature that they're male & straight. When prepping presentations of female leads, they're inserting fantasies of "kick-ass hot babes" they have themselves. They're simply naturally more invested personally in creating a nice, attractive package around female leads. Many people think Miranda ass-shots were done to appeal to the straight male players. Honestly? I think BioWare guys did them just as much for themselves and their own fun/pleasure as they did it to cater to the male fanbase with a sex appeal.

Id have to somewhat agree with that. Not that i think writers are sexists but simply that its easier for them to write strong female leads then strong male leads. It not only about what male and female players want in a romancable character but also what kind of lead NPC makes them feel like their character is the main protagonist. IMO thats why we have characters like Kaidan, Jacob and Alistair with not much backbone / initiative so they dont threaten the player in his Savior role (its agood game mechanism as of why they dont just quit and save the world on their own term at the first disagreement). On the other hand, those characters are reliable and listen to/care for the protagonist which tends to be qualities appreciated by many female players.

Not that it's really any of our business (and I really don't want to get into speculation), but it still needs to be asked: Why are we assuming all the Bioware writers are straight? 

Also, while there may be some truth in the whole "women like X so that's what we'll give them," different women have different tastes and reactions to each character, man or woman - and I think the male leads/possible love interests are written to reflect that.  I've played all the Bioware games since KotOR, and only one male LI appeals to me personally (not just in a "yay, content!" kind of way).  I think that's a sign of good writing if the characters are that different.

[ChaplainTappman]

jeweledleah wrote...

you need to spec him the right way and make sure he's using the correct weapon. (ME tends to randomly switch primary weapons for squadmates  - Garrus used to die like crazy for me.. and then I figured out that he was using Mattock instead of sniper rifle :/  both games actualy do that.  logging out also disables your ammo powers, evenif you were in the middle of the mission when you saved and logged)

here's a good guide http://social.biowar...1/index/5678892

Kaidna also suffered from squishy when specced wrong/before he gets any skillpoints syndrom, unfortunately.  Both characters are fantastic when used properly, they are just easier to screw up then some of the other squadmates.

Thanks for the tip; when I import the ME1 FemShep I'm working on now, I'll use Jacob. I think part of my issue with Jacob, too, is that I have yet to romance him (or any ME2 male, actually), so I'm lacking any of that character development. Though that could backfire; after romancing Jack, I became instantly less interested in her. Kaidan, too, but that has more to do with him calling me a traitor on Horizon.

[shepskisaac]

LadyJaneGrey wrote...

Not that it's really any of our business (and I really don't want to get into speculation), but it still needs to be asked: Why are we assuming all the Bioware writers are straight? 

You say you don't want to get into speculation and then ask why lol. Let's just say I doubt we would be waiting until 3rd game for s/s romances in ME had the franchise's writing team was filled with male bi/gay writers. Not to mention stuff like an entire race of universually bisexual blue space babes who just love to go through a stripper phase in their youth, and tons of other lesbian innuendos in ME1 & 2 compared to zero male s/s content + Miranda ass shots, + Chora's Den and other stuff. C'mon...

LadyJaneGrey wrote...

Also, while there may be some truth in the whole "women like X so that's what we'll give them," different women have different tastes and reactions to each character, man or woman - and I think the male leads/possible love interests are written to reflect that.  I've played all the Bioware games since KotOR, and only one male LI appeals to me personally (not just in a "yay, content!" kind of way).  I think that's a sign of good writing if the characters are that different.

Of course different women have different tastes. But that's not the point. All the different women with all the different tastes will all agree will agree that male characters should be presented well/wrapped in a good "box". The OP raised a good point that many male characters (especially LIs) in BW games simply lack any kind of special presentation other characters have (especially female LIs). My point is, that it's just natural for men who are interested in women to be more involved into making female characters have great appeal (of any kind) and vice versa. David Gaider said on the recent Comic-Con panel that it is sometimes very hard for them (the male writers) to not get themselves wrapped into the idea that the main prataginist is also exclusively a male (when there's an option for the PC to be a woman) and how the presence of many female writers at Dragon Age team makes it much easier for the DA writing team to avoid this mistake. This applies to more than just the player character. Can skilled writers avoid these mistakes? Absolutely, but it's not easy and unfortunately, BW writers didn't manage to avoid them in some cases IMO.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 12 août 2011 - 11:37 .

[Wynne]

Collider wrote...

The lead males don't have to be the favorites of almost only female players who romance them if Bioware
does things right. And non-romanced characters don't have to be so overshadowed by those that are romanced. Note that this thread isn't specifically about any one character. It has more to do with the trend of less and/or less interesting content with characters who you don't romance or can't be romanced anyway.

In a few words, here is the (part of the) solution to the problem. Don't focus on romance so much. Let players be able to avoid romance easily if they choose and still have a satisfying time interacting with the characters on their friendship (or rivalry) path. The relationship still needs to be distinctive and evolving without any romance active. The content should also not severely truncated just because you aren't in a romance with them. No more Garrus calibrations.

Dude, the content was severely truncated even when you were in a romance with Garrus, and the romance content with him was more friends with creepy scared-of-fluid-contact benefits than actual romance, for some reason that I still don't understand.

But I concur nevertheless. I've long since wanted them to make the friendships deeper, and to do a romance with a character already loved by both males and females (Joker.) That's the way it should be; male and female leads should be loved by both male and female players; romance should not exclude friendship. I hated it when Jack basically said, "go away, I'm not a lesbian" and Shepard just kind of took it. That sucked. I love Jack, and all I wanted was to be there for her.

A game is more rewarding when nobody feels like a throwaway, and everybody has a wide range of interaction available. I'm hoping ME3's system will be a little more solid. But from what it sounds like, you'll like Vega, whom it sounds like we'll be mentoring.

[LadyJaneGrey]

IsaacShep wrote...

You say you don't want to get into speculation and then ask why lol. Let's just say I doubt we would be waiting until 3rd game for s/s romances in ME had the franchise's writing team was filled with male bi/gay writers. Not to mention stuff like an entire race of universually bisexual blue space babes who just love to go through a stripper phase in their youth, and tons of other lesbian innuendos in ME1 & 2 compared to zero male s/s content + Miranda ass shots, + Chora's Den and other stuff. C'mon...

Fair enough.  What I meant was I didn't want it to turn into a game of "guess what turns on specific writer X."    And I was addressing ALL the Bioware male henchmen and their writers, not just ME's team.

I'm certainly not going to sit here and argue that the asari and Miranda's (and Jacob's, for that matter) camera angles were pure pandering to the fans. 

IsaacShep wrote...

Of course different women have different tastes. But that's not the point. All the different women with all the different tastes will all agree will agree that male characters should be presented well/wrapped in a good "box". The OP raised a good point that many male characters (especially LIs) in BW games simply lack any kind of special presentation other characters have (especially female LIs). My point is, that it's just natural for men who are interested in women to be more involved into making female characters have great appeal (of any kind) and vice versa. David Gaider said on the recent Comic-Con panel that it is sometimes very hard for them (the male writers) to not get themselves wrapped into the idea that the main prataginist is also exclusively a male (when there's an option for the PC to be a woman) and how the presence of many female writers at Dragon Age team makes it much easier for the DA writing team to avoid this mistake. This applies to more than just the player character. Can skilled writers avoid these mistakes? Absolutely, but it's not easy and unfortunately, BW writers didn't manage to avoid them in some cases IMO.

Lots of good points in there.  I do wonder though if a cool cutscene that "wraps the male character in a good box" can overcome the "male aliens who mention their backstories are cool; human men who mention their backstories are whiny" mentality. 

Thanks for the Gaider tidbit!  Anyway, mostly I was trying to the head-off the thread from "all straight guy writers think X" because that's just as bad as saying "all women like this."

...and I feel like I'm sounding combative when I don't intend to be.  Sorry if I was babbly.  I'll come back when I'm not high of medication side effects. 

[shepskisaac]

LadyJaneGrey wrote...
I do wonder though if a cool cutscene that "wraps the male character in a good box" can overcome the "male aliens who mention their backstories are cool; human men who mention their backstories are whiny" mentality. 

Naah. That's just some male gamers "threathened" by another human character that could be a better then them so they will ridiculue everything Carth/Kaidan/Jacob/Vega say lol

Modifié par IsaacShep, 13 août 2011 - 12:47 .

[ChaplainTappman]

Wynne wrote...

Dude, the content was severely truncated even when you were in a romance with Garrus, and the romance content with him was more friends with creepy scared-of-fluid-contact benefits than actual romance, for some reason that I still don't understand.

But I concur nevertheless. I've long since wanted them to make the friendships deeper, and to do a romance with a character already loved by both males and females (Joker.) That's the way it should be; male and female leads should be loved by both male and female players; romance should not exclude friendship. I hated it when Jack basically said, "go away, I'm not a lesbian" and Shepard just kind of took it. That sucked. I love Jack, and all I wanted was to be there for her.

A game is more rewarding when nobody feels like a throwaway, and everybody has a wide range of interaction available. I'm hoping ME3's system will be a little more solid. But from what it sounds like, you'll like Vega, whom it sounds like we'll be mentoring.

I never liked the Garrus romance. It just seems forced to me, like Bioware said "well, we're making Tali romanceable, screw it let's add Garrus in there too."

Also, re: Jack pushing FemShep away, it's disappointing but it also fits her character. She doesn't see any reason for anyone to want to talk to her other than sex, and she doesn't want to have sex with a female Shepard. What's more, she doesn't really want to talk to anyone; note that the entire conversation arc between Jack and a BroShep romancing her consists basically of her pushing him away.

I'd love to be able to have more conversation options and deeper nonromantic relationships with everyone. I think ME1 did the best at that, with every squadmate being engaging to a certain extent regardless of gender or romantic interest. Kaidan wasn't bland, just reserved. They kind of lost it in ME2, but I feel like that's due to having, frankly, too many squadmates. It seems the Dunbar number is much lower when we're talking about fictional people. That said, I wouldn't expect vastly expanded friendships in ME3. I just don't think it's practical, nor is it a reasonable expectation. The fact is, creating those conversations costs time and money, and I think it's a safe bet that the vast majority of players would never see that content. I think most people (and I'm guilty of this myself) tend to only interact with whichever character they're romancing.

[ChaplainTappman]

IsaacShep wrote...

Naah. That's just some male gamers "threathened" by another human character that could be a better then them so they will ridiculue everything Carth/Kaidan/Jacob/Vega say lol

Haha. That said, Kaidan ending what felt like every conversation with "I don't want to sound like a whiner" kind of made him sound like a whiner.