27 réponses à ce sujet

[kcrhun]

Hi all,

This is not another thread on how to build a DW rogue. I know there are tons of those out there. What I would like to ask is how to actually use one. I have done 2 playthroughs as a rogue; one on Hard difficulty and another on Nightmare. In both playthroughs, I began as DW or dabbled in it at one point. However, I always found myself respecing back to Archery/Assassin/Shadow because certain fights, especially boss fights, would become frustratingly difficult. I found that my DW rogue, while very fun to play, would spend a lot of time unconscious. And while slicing and dicing with DW is fun, being dead is most definitely NOT.

These are the issues I have encountered with DW rogues:

• Target fixation - I get so engrossed with wailing on my current target at close range that I miss what's going on in the wider battle.
• Aggro/threat management - being in melee range and doing a lot of damage, I naturally generate a lot of threat. So I would use talents like Stealth, Evade, etc. to lose threat, but once I start again I would pick it up again in short order. Also being in melee range seems to cause me to "pick up" more enemy attention just due to the proximity.
• Bosses - there are just some fights where being in melee range is a bad idea. For e.g. Ancient Rock Wraith, any dragons, Meredith

So, what is the optimal way to use a DW rogue?

• What is a typical "sequence" of moves that you do in combat?
• What kind of targets to do you go after first? Tank's target? Enemy mages? (Going after this seems to guarantee attracting too much attention for the tank or Varric to peel off me, resulting in my premature nap)
• What do you do against bosses? Pick up a bow?

Thank you in advance for your guidance.

[SuicidalBaby]

Take 1 face

Take 1 keyboard

Roll 1 face, across 1 keyboard.

[MoriarTC]

I would recommend Checking out Arelex's DW build. Very informative with some Video Examples. Not the best of resolutions on his Vidz, but you will still see what's going on. Nice explantion on skills he takes during his build and where he uses them. With a nice companion setup & tactics. Still havent done Rouge NM yet, working on my Mage NM at the moment.

[SuicidalBaby]

MoriarTC wrote...
 With a nice companion setup & tactics.

Why, thank you.  You're too kind.

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 10 août 2011 - 03:35 .

[kcrhun]

SuicidialBaby wrote...

Take 1 face

Take 1 keyboard

Roll 1 face, across 1 keyboard.

Yes, I have tried this too. But sadly my DW rogue winds up on the floor. Come to think of it, the more I roll my face, the more likely that he dies.

[AreleX]

SuicidialBaby wrote...

MoriarTC wrote...
 With a nice companion setup & tactics.

Why, thank you.  You're too kind.

this man is a hater

[SuicidalBaby]

Elites are first priority unless they are out of range and or there is a small army between you and them.

If something needs to die "right now" and unending chain is near-full or full blow off a Shattering, followed immediately by a twin fangs.

Generally start off with Twin Fangs, so you're not wasting the chain on it in any way and then the chain builds for shattering or auto-attack critter slaughter.

Use Decoy to peel groups out of your ranged people.

Use aggressive behavior. DPS increase.

basically follow these tactics in your head...

self: hp <25%: Health Poultice
Anders: being attacked by melee: back to back
enemy: STAGGERED: use current condition for next tactic
enemy: elite or higher: Explosive Strike
enemy: elite or higher: Twin Fangs
enemy: normal or higher: Twin Fangs
enemy: attacking Merrill/Bethany: Backstab
enemy: attacking Anders: Backstab
enemy: boss: range: far away: switch to bow
self: surrounded by 4 enemies: Decoy/stealth
Anders: being attacked by melee: Decoy
self: stamina: <10%: Stamina Draught
enemy: attacking Anders: Attack
enemy: attacking Hawke: Attack
enemy: attacking Avaline: Attack

i think you get the gist. just be aggressive

b

e

aggressive

although, imo i would add rank conditions to the direct damage disorients on the companion builds Arelex uses.

i.e.
enemy:disoriented: uccfnt
enemy: normal or higher: spirit bolt

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 10 août 2011 - 04:04 .

[AreleX]

if your previous playthroughs where you struggled were pre-patch, play it again post; it's a ton easier.

[SuicidalBaby]

AreleX wrote...

SuicidialBaby wrote...

MoriarTC wrote...
 With a nice companion setup & tactics.

Why, thank you.  You're too kind.

this man is a hater

I dont hate, I copulate

[kcrhun]

Thanks, SuicidalBaby. 

SuicidialBaby wrote...

Elites are first priority unless they are out of range and or there is a small army between you and them.

If something needs to die "right now" and unending chain is near-full or full blow off a Shattering, followed immediately by a twin fangs.

Generally start off with Twin Fangs, so you're not wasting the chain on it in any way and then the chain builds for shattering or auto-attack critter slaughter.

Use Decoy to peel groups out of your ranged people.

Use aggressive behavior. DPS increase.

basically follow these tactics in your head...

self: hp <25%: Health Poultice
Anders: being attacked by melee: back to back
enemy: STAGGERED: use current condition for next tactic
enemy: elite or higher: Explosive Strike
enemy: elite or higher: Twin Fangs
enemy: normal or higher: Twin Fangs
enemy: attacking Merrill/Bethany: Backstab
enemy: attacking Anders: Backstab
enemy: boss: range: far away: switch to bow
self: surrounded by 4 enemies: Decoy/stealth
Anders: being attacked by melee: Decoy
self: stamina: <10%: Stamina Draught
enemy: attacking Anders: Attack
enemy: attacking Hawke: Attack
enemy: attacking Avaline: Attack

i think you get the gist. just be aggressive

b

e

aggressive

although, imo i would add rank conditions to the direct damage disorients on the companion builds Arelex uses.

i.e.
enemy:disoriented: uccfnt
enemy: normal or higher: spirit bolt

I just tried taking my end-game bow Rogue and respecing to DW for Legacy. I couldn't even get past the first fight in that wide open area where there are 2 firing squads of Carta Snipers. Bear in mind that this is Legacy so Anders is dead and gone. What happens is that Varric is the first to fall, then Bethany, then myself. If I go and take on one of the Sniper squads by myself, I just end up dying. 

From the "in my head" tactics, I take it that I should prioritize enemies attacking my squishies then the ones attacking my tank? For the first fight in Legacy, is going after the Sniper squads first a bad idea? In general I just find DWing a lot less forgiving than archery...

[kcrhun]

Sigh. Just tried it again, this time trying to concentrate on the mobs targeting my party members. Still died from turning into a pincushion. Everything seems to go to hell once Aveline chases that accursed Overseer out into the open...

[mr_afk]

Possible sequence for that battle:
1. Overseer --> Brittle/Stagger --> Assassinate CCC/Vendetta CCC+Lacerate + A few more auto attacks = dead. During this time his two friends will be most likely killed by your companions.
2. Archers --> Use dog+stealth/Aveline/some order of meat shield to tank all the arrows while you run up to the offending archers. Getting your mages to drop firestorms on them also works. Either way, just kill them.
3. Melee enemies charging out at you --> Drop a decoy in their face and while under stealth quickly rush over to the distant group of archers and end them.
4. Clean up.


Re: Your initial questions
1. You'll get better at it in time. Basically if you're tactics are good enough your party should be able to run along by itself just fine. And if you're doing your job and killing all the elites/everything your companions should be mostly safe anyway.

2. Threat management isn't really that hard as a shadow. Assassin/Duelists may suffer a little more (e.g. you'll have to rely on your companions to help out with threat management) but in general, all there really is to it is redirecting threat away from you and focusing on one at a time so that any enemies that you draw threat on die before they can do anything. Decoy, stealth, inconspicuous are the best while evade or stuns are a little more hit and miss.

3. As for your question about bosses/fights in general:
In a party- You want to immediately get the dangerous enemies crowd controlled and setup for CCCs. Eg. Winter's grasp or Shield Bash.
After that mainly focus on drawing threat then directing at decoys (i.e. protecting your companions) and via disorienting criticals allow your companions to let off lots of disorient CCCs.
I haven't met a boss who I haven't managed to beat with a DW, though dragon fights are a pain (due to their aoe attacks).

I'm not sure which boss you're referring to, so here's several that i've got recorded:
Arishok
Xebenkeck solo
Gauntlet solo
ARW solo
Deeproads Dragon solo

Deeproads Dragon+ARW (party)
Malvernis (party)

Pretty much all of them demonstrate how you should be able to manage threat/prioritise damage. My guide explains more about it. While it addresses soloing a DW, the principles mostly still apply

Modifié par mr_afk, 10 août 2011 - 05:24 .

[kcrhun]

I'm just too fragile. I keep finding that out of nowhere, I get one-shotted by some attack I didn't see coming. And then the archers start focusing on me while Stealth and Decoy are on CD... Should I stack + health gear?

[kcrhun]

Ok. Thanks for all your input. I think the problem is that my rogue isn't adequately geared. I took my end-game bow Rogue and respeced; as a result I only had one 5-star dagger... in my offhand I'm using the basic red steel dagger... maybe that's the problem. I'm not doing enough damage fast enough.

I guess I'll need to start another playthrough.

[Sabotin]

What are your stats? Obviously if you're undergeared you're gimping yourself. Specially if you have inadeguate weapons you're throwing away the whle point of a rogue.

For survival:
- Kill ranged enemies first as they won't miss and will do decent damage to you. You can almost ignore the close ranged stuff until you clear the archers and such.
- Keep moving. Melee enemies are using slow fighting animations, mostly they can be evaded easily if you don't exactly stand there and take it.
- Keep calm. Like you said it's easy to get engrossed in the rogue's mincemeat business. Also, not every fight do you need to be in the forefront and get all the enemies' attention. Maybe counter-intuitive at first, but even mages are better tanks, specially if you're playing post-campaign and have negligible armor (after Legacy my rogue had 6% at level 28)

I'm guessing you already have a decent defense and are using obscure?

Another thing - I'm not sure what are the other rogues' experiences, but I found the duelist vendetta invaluable in Legacy. There's a lot of positioning going on and that really eases on the running around or up stairs etc., even without exploiting CCCs. Some fights are even made trivial (e.g. Genlock alphas).

Anyway it isn't that hard, just feel like a rogue would, swishing around enemies and disappearing at the inopportune moment and severing spinal chords all around.

[Gespenst]

http://social.biowar...acter_id=322584

That's my most recent (read only) rogue. I'm no expert character builder but I had no problems with her. I had a about a 70% crit chance and a about a 260% crit damage and 80% defence but only 21% armour. (note for some reason some of the skills aren't showing up, nor is her  main hand weapon - the one you get from Legacy is the name spoilers? Never mind it's not there anyway and all the equipment's names are wrong)

I'd start most fights by finding the strongest enemy and going

Backstab > Unforgiving Chain > Explosive blade and twin fangs if they were still alive.

Sometimes I'd throw the miasmic flask first depending on the enemy position.

If I ever got surrounded by a lot of enemies I'd use decoy and then hit them in the back with swords until they went away.

Modifié par Gespenst, 10 août 2011 - 03:18 .

[mr_afk]

@Gespenst- I think i can see most of your skills.. but generally speaking, for shadow assassins it is better to pump more dex such that you have 80% crit chance at the minimum (including heroic aura and gear) such that you can reach 100% crit chance via unforgiving chain.

This allows you to save quite a few ability points (e.g. backstab upgrade, ambush+ prerequisites, predator) and allow you to flesh out more important trees like assassin (i.e. upgraded assassinate and mark of death) and specialist (+%speed is always good). Upgrading decoy (for extended duration) is also very useful.

But if your current setup is working for you then it doesn't really matter in the end of the day

[Gespenst]

I'm pretty sure there's a skill that gives you 100% chance of a flanking critical - I was really taking advantage of that... thanks for that input though. I really enjoyed playing as a rogue so I might try again and try min/maxing (or whatever term you want to use) on another playthrough.

I was mostly going for a compromise between critical damage and critical chance so that's why I split it between dex and cunning like that.

[kcrhun]

Vendetta does sound amazing, but Throw the Gauntlet and the other prerequisite sustainable don't sound very good. Whereas Shadow is full of very very useful talents.

With my respeced bow Rogue I think it's mostly a gear issue. I've since started a new DW Rogue, and so far the going from 1 - 7 has been much smoother than I remember the first time round. Perhaps the patches did make a real difference? DA2 isn't very long anyway, so I hope that by the time I complete the main storyline and go onto Legacy the experience will be different.

[kcrhun]

So, to pull this off you need BOTH Lingering Shroud & Shadow Veil or only one of them?

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Solo DW Shadow Assassin with Lingering Shroud/Shadow Veil can Stealth into a battle and kill 2~3 sub-bosses before enemies even know where you are, something no other class can do. Step by step:

0. Order the rest of your party to Hold Position or don't take any party member at all.
1. Stealth.
2. Enter enemy area.
3. Assassinate on 1st Enemy sub-boss. Target ragdolled. Hawke still in Stealth.
4. Twin Fangs on 2nd Enemy sub-boss. Target ragdolled. Hawke breaks Stealth.
5. Decoy.
6. Wait for enemies to gather around Decoy.
7. Miasmic Flask/Rush on the clustered enemies. Enemies stunned/ragdolled.
8. Auto-attack on the enemies already weakened in previous steps. You should be able to kill them with a few slashes.
9. Stealth (fully upgraded) finishes cooldown. Go back to Step 1.
10. If you really find yourself being overwhelmed with Stealth still in cooldown, Back-to-back (with Invisible Friend) to Aveline waiting on Hold at the far side of the map. If that still doesn't save you, dump Inconspicuous. You're all clear again.

Notice that during all attacks in this cycle Hawke is Obscured.

You can do similar Stealth cycles with Archer Shadow Assassin, using Archer's Lance & Assassinate. It'd be a bit more artful - you need to line up Lance to maximize your first strike damage, but you have plenty of time to line it up under Stealth. DW still kills things faster though.

[kcrhun]

Thanks. I think upon starting a new playthrough I've made my Rogue move-to-point back from the front, then charge in with Aveline, Taunt, then tell Varric to Goad before taking control of my Rogue again. 

Sabotin wrote...

What are your stats? Obviously if you're undergeared you're gimping yourself. Specially if you have inadeguate weapons you're throwing away the whle point of a rogue.

For survival:
- Kill ranged enemies first as they won't miss and will do decent damage to you. You can almost ignore the close ranged stuff until you clear the archers and such.
- Keep moving. Melee enemies are using slow fighting animations, mostly they can be evaded easily if you don't exactly stand there and take it.
- Keep calm. Like you said it's easy to get engrossed in the rogue's mincemeat business. Also, not every fight do you need to be in the forefront and get all the enemies' attention. Maybe counter-intuitive at first, but even mages are better tanks, specially if you're playing post-campaign and have negligible armor (after Legacy my rogue had 6% at level 28)

I'm guessing you already have a decent defense and are using obscure?

Another thing - I'm not sure what are the other rogues' experiences, but I found the duelist vendetta invaluable in Legacy. There's a lot of positioning going on and that really eases on the running around or up stairs etc., even without exploiting CCCs. Some fights are even made trivial (e.g. Genlock alphas).

Anyway it isn't that hard, just feel like a rogue would, swishing around enemies and disappearing at the inopportune moment and severing spinal chords all around.