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[coldlogic82]

So, the recent release of Legacy (another winner DLC by bioware imo) led me to replay the entire game.  I figured, why go halfway.  I remembered the Hawkes mother thing, and was sort of dreading that, but I'd forgotten how many other remarkably depressing things happened in that game.  In fact, I think I like DA 2 so much because I'm on anti-depressents, so I'm immune to wanting to slit my wrists post game.  Now, the top 10 list below has two issues I'll address outright.  First, some of these are choices.  That is, they're depressing, but you can choose to do them or not to do them.  Usually though, the other option wasn't that much better.  Second, this is obviously an opinion.  If you think I left something out, or put something too low, say it!  I want this thread to really delve into the horricially tragic parts, and remind us all this isn't a happy story.

The List!

10.  The death of Carver/Bethany by an Ogre:  True, it doesn't *feel* that tragic (though it does more so on a second playthrough when you got to know the one that died a bit better), but the fact that a family member of the main character and the husband of a random couple you picked up die before the first act isn't exactly starting the game with a dose of sunshine. 

9.  Bethany/Carver dies in the deep roads:  This one requires you take a sibling into the deeproads without Anders in the party.  My first playthrough I didn't think anything of it, and was quite shocked to see Carver die in the deep roads.  Annoying ****** though he is, it was pretty sad.  Now all of Hawke's siblings are dead.  The grey warden option, while better, still isn't exactly happy.

8.  Varric kills Bartrand:  Once you discover what's going on, you have the option to spare him, but he's completely insane, and it's questionable as to whether that really isn't even more depressing.  Sure, Varric said he wanted to kill Bartrand, but actual fratricide, and not for revenge, but for mercy, does not a happy moment make.

7.  Various betrayals in the fade:  For a game that really tries to foster care about your allies, this mission hurts.  In the fade, depending on who you bring and your standing with them, almost everyone betrays you.  Everyone apologizes, and it's a great way to get friendship points, but your best buds turning on you, the first time at least, is a nasty little surprise.

6.  Fenris is sold out by his sister:  I don't like Fenris.  But that doesn't it any less depressing that his sister would trade him back into slavery in order to be apprenticed to a magister.  Even if you don't know your family, there's still something horribly unsettling about betraying them to a lifetime of suffering for your own personal gain.  You do that to enemies, not people with whom you grew up.

5.  The Keeper takes in the demon:  The Keeper of the Dalish clan sacrifices herself to save Merril because she is wise where Merril is niave.  The death of the Keeper was a tragic scene, and it's made a lot worse if you have Fenris or Anders in your party, or even worse than that, both.  They say horrible things like the world is a horrible place she died and not Merril, while Merril obviously wishes more than anything the Keeper didn't pay her price for her.  Choose 2 of 3 options upon exiting the cave and you get the even more depressing task of wiping out an entire Dalish Clan.

4.  Sister Petrice kills the Viscounts son:  Sure, she gets slain too, and let's face it, by that point no one is sad over that, but killing the Viscounts son in order to promote an uprising against opposing religion and doing it in the name of the Maker and Grand Cleric is pretty bad.  It's a tough scene to watch in the Chantry, sacred ground whether your like them or not.  In the end you have the dead bodies of Seamus, Sister Petrice, and a small mindless mob on the carpet of a cathedral, and the Viscount weeping over his son.

3.  Killing Anders:  It's too bad, in my opinion, that they changed Anders from such a cheerful, sarcastic, comic character to the brooding, questionably possessed mage rebeliant in DA 2.  I loved him from DA:O, and that's the only reason reason he didn't get killed on my first playthrough.  But after that, seeing what he'd done, allowing him to live just doesn't seem viable anymore.  He becomes a vengeful monster, a true abomination, and the pinnacle of the best of intentions gone horribly wrong.  No one, I don't think, wanted to kill Anders, even though by act three everything he said was brooding and irritating, but given the choice, and it's a sad one, he proves himself vengeful, not just, and for that, many choose to kill him.

2.  The Chantry destroyed:  As if Sister Petrice hadn't cause enough bloodshed in the Chantry, not to mention Anders tranquil made friend, the final incredible act that no one saw coming and no one could believe actually happened was the destruction of the Chantry with the Grand Cleric inside.  Aside from all the innocent victims apart from potentially innocent templars, sisters, and mothers (Ulric and Petrice represent the worst, not the norm), the death of the only person with any power showing continual wisdom, compassion, and reason is beyond tragic.  The wisest and most stable person in the entire city died in an act that is in perfect alignment with modern definitions of terrorism.  Calling the rite of annulment was a foul play, and so you can still side with the mages in good conscience, but that was pretty much the end of Anders as a "good guy" and a horrible, unbelievable moment all around.

1.  The death of Hawkes mother:  As if having both your siblings either dead or gone by the end of the second act wasn't bad enough, the last family Hawke has, his mother, dies.  And it couldn't be any death.  In fact, while it may not be the all time most twisted death, it certainly was a bit more disturbing than a simple shot in the head or dagger through the heart.  To watch Leandra lurch over to Hawke, no longer a woman but instead a necromancers horrific creation, and tell him she loved him as he's forced to watch her die to an insane perverse villian is probably one of the most difficult scenes I've ever watched in a video game.  Hell, even horror movies could take a queue from that one.  And what's worse, this one isn't a choice.  There is no way to save her, despite rumors.  The only choice you have is whether, in the end, you kill one insane bastard, or two.  It is interesting though, for as much as people say this was the moment that forces you stop seeing mages as victims of oppression, and it's true this is one of the few things in the game a mage can do that is beyond horrible and is solely limited to being doable via magic, at the same time, because of the magic, at least Hawke got to say goodbye.

[John Epler]

If you bring Anders on Varric's Act Two quest and temporarily cure Bartrand - the VA really nailed that one. Some of my favourite dialogue in the game - I wish I could go back and re-do those scenes, as I really don't feel that I did them justice.

[John Epler]

I realize now that I am probably partially responsible for a small amount of heartache, as I also did the scenes that killed off your sibling in the Deep Roads. Though I don't think any of the player lines were quite as good as Boulton's 'You always were a heartbreaker, Bethany.' Still conflicted on whether or not hiding the actual kill was the right call. At the time I felt so, but I go back and forth on that one.

[John Epler]

Aradace wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

I realize now that I am probably partially responsible for a small amount of heartache, as I also did the scenes that killed off your sibling in the Deep Roads. Though I don't think any of the player lines were quite as good as Boulton's 'You always were a heartbreaker, Bethany.' Still conflicted on whether or not hiding the actual kill was the right call. At the time I felt so, but I go back and forth on that one.

It would have added "more" to the intended emotion behind the scene IMHO had it actually been shown.  Just my personal opinion though

Yeah, there's a reason why that particular moment is the one I'm most conflicted about in DA2. Even what I consider to be the weakest scene I did (Grace killing Thrask - I should have set it up so there was more of a reason why the player didn't intervene, which I feel was a big problem with how I did that scene) doesn't cause me as much consternation as the sibling death. The problem was - I had (and still have) a hard time visualizing a scenario that wouldn't A) seem contrived and cheesy, or  would work with all the personalities.

I'll probably never stop second-guessing that one, but I learned some good lessons from it.

[Jennifer Brandes Hepler]

Dragon Age has always been a game that has pushed the idea of tragedy. When we first discussed having Alistair sacrifice himself out of love of the Warden, there was debate over whether players would find that moving or just be frustrated that he made a decision they couldn't control. We decided to go with what we all reacted to in our guts as a cool emotional moment, and it became a defining part of DA:O for people who experienced it.

I certainly don't deny that most of our writers tend to prefer tragic moments. For me, personally, I've never really trusted an author who wasn't willing to kill a likeable character. Happy endings often feel cheap and unearned. But I have also experienced tragedy-fatigue (parts of GRRM, or the second Melanie Rawn Dragon trilogy come to mind), and I'm sorry if DAII reached that level for some people. I think it's particularly hard to judge the tragedy-per-square-foot sweet spot in a game, since the pacing is very different if you play it over a few days, a few weeks or a few months. I imagine the faster you play, the more saturated it seems.

That said, it is important to us on the team that Dragon Age continue to push the bounds of what a videogame can make you feel. And for that, sorrowful or touching events are a far better guage than happy ones. If your character gets everything he wants, are you feeling happy because you genuinely empathize with him, or just because you've "won" the game? It's when you stop to help a character that you get no benefit from just because you care about him as a person, or mourn the loss of someone like Leandra, who had no game benefit, that we've really reached past the limits of the game with the story.

So, while we have certainly been disapointed in the number of fans who didn't feel a sense of agency with Hawke because of all the emotional events surrounding her/him -- and will be taking steps to ensure a better feeling of personal impact in future stories -- Dragon Age products will likely continue to push the boundaries of dark fantasy and human tragedy. So, while you may experience greater victories in future products, it wouldn't be Dragon Age if they didn't come at a cost.

[Jennifer Brandes Hepler]

Thanks for the discussion, guys. As a writer, I find it very informative to see a (civil) discussion of flaws people found in the story that aren't mixed up with criticism of gameplay and art. From what people are saying here, I think you'll like what's currently in the works.