214 réponses à ce sujet

[coldlogic82]

So, the recent release of Legacy (another winner DLC by bioware imo) led me to replay the entire game.  I figured, why go halfway.  I remembered the Hawkes mother thing, and was sort of dreading that, but I'd forgotten how many other remarkably depressing things happened in that game.  In fact, I think I like DA 2 so much because I'm on anti-depressents, so I'm immune to wanting to slit my wrists post game.  Now, the top 10 list below has two issues I'll address outright.  First, some of these are choices.  That is, they're depressing, but you can choose to do them or not to do them.  Usually though, the other option wasn't that much better.  Second, this is obviously an opinion.  If you think I left something out, or put something too low, say it!  I want this thread to really delve into the horricially tragic parts, and remind us all this isn't a happy story.

The List!

10.  The death of Carver/Bethany by an Ogre:  True, it doesn't *feel* that tragic (though it does more so on a second playthrough when you got to know the one that died a bit better), but the fact that a family member of the main character and the husband of a random couple you picked up die before the first act isn't exactly starting the game with a dose of sunshine. 

9.  Bethany/Carver dies in the deep roads:  This one requires you take a sibling into the deeproads without Anders in the party.  My first playthrough I didn't think anything of it, and was quite shocked to see Carver die in the deep roads.  Annoying ****** though he is, it was pretty sad.  Now all of Hawke's siblings are dead.  The grey warden option, while better, still isn't exactly happy.

8.  Varric kills Bartrand:  Once you discover what's going on, you have the option to spare him, but he's completely insane, and it's questionable as to whether that really isn't even more depressing.  Sure, Varric said he wanted to kill Bartrand, but actual fratricide, and not for revenge, but for mercy, does not a happy moment make.

7.  Various betrayals in the fade:  For a game that really tries to foster care about your allies, this mission hurts.  In the fade, depending on who you bring and your standing with them, almost everyone betrays you.  Everyone apologizes, and it's a great way to get friendship points, but your best buds turning on you, the first time at least, is a nasty little surprise.

6.  Fenris is sold out by his sister:  I don't like Fenris.  But that doesn't it any less depressing that his sister would trade him back into slavery in order to be apprenticed to a magister.  Even if you don't know your family, there's still something horribly unsettling about betraying them to a lifetime of suffering for your own personal gain.  You do that to enemies, not people with whom you grew up.

5.  The Keeper takes in the demon:  The Keeper of the Dalish clan sacrifices herself to save Merril because she is wise where Merril is niave.  The death of the Keeper was a tragic scene, and it's made a lot worse if you have Fenris or Anders in your party, or even worse than that, both.  They say horrible things like the world is a horrible place she died and not Merril, while Merril obviously wishes more than anything the Keeper didn't pay her price for her.  Choose 2 of 3 options upon exiting the cave and you get the even more depressing task of wiping out an entire Dalish Clan.

4.  Sister Petrice kills the Viscounts son:  Sure, she gets slain too, and let's face it, by that point no one is sad over that, but killing the Viscounts son in order to promote an uprising against opposing religion and doing it in the name of the Maker and Grand Cleric is pretty bad.  It's a tough scene to watch in the Chantry, sacred ground whether your like them or not.  In the end you have the dead bodies of Seamus, Sister Petrice, and a small mindless mob on the carpet of a cathedral, and the Viscount weeping over his son.

3.  Killing Anders:  It's too bad, in my opinion, that they changed Anders from such a cheerful, sarcastic, comic character to the brooding, questionably possessed mage rebeliant in DA 2.  I loved him from DA:O, and that's the only reason reason he didn't get killed on my first playthrough.  But after that, seeing what he'd done, allowing him to live just doesn't seem viable anymore.  He becomes a vengeful monster, a true abomination, and the pinnacle of the best of intentions gone horribly wrong.  No one, I don't think, wanted to kill Anders, even though by act three everything he said was brooding and irritating, but given the choice, and it's a sad one, he proves himself vengeful, not just, and for that, many choose to kill him.

2.  The Chantry destroyed:  As if Sister Petrice hadn't cause enough bloodshed in the Chantry, not to mention Anders tranquil made friend, the final incredible act that no one saw coming and no one could believe actually happened was the destruction of the Chantry with the Grand Cleric inside.  Aside from all the innocent victims apart from potentially innocent templars, sisters, and mothers (Ulric and Petrice represent the worst, not the norm), the death of the only person with any power showing continual wisdom, compassion, and reason is beyond tragic.  The wisest and most stable person in the entire city died in an act that is in perfect alignment with modern definitions of terrorism.  Calling the rite of annulment was a foul play, and so you can still side with the mages in good conscience, but that was pretty much the end of Anders as a "good guy" and a horrible, unbelievable moment all around.

1.  The death of Hawkes mother:  As if having both your siblings either dead or gone by the end of the second act wasn't bad enough, the last family Hawke has, his mother, dies.  And it couldn't be any death.  In fact, while it may not be the all time most twisted death, it certainly was a bit more disturbing than a simple shot in the head or dagger through the heart.  To watch Leandra lurch over to Hawke, no longer a woman but instead a necromancers horrific creation, and tell him she loved him as he's forced to watch her die to an insane perverse villian is probably one of the most difficult scenes I've ever watched in a video game.  Hell, even horror movies could take a queue from that one.  And what's worse, this one isn't a choice.  There is no way to save her, despite rumors.  The only choice you have is whether, in the end, you kill one insane bastard, or two.  It is interesting though, for as much as people say this was the moment that forces you stop seeing mages as victims of oppression, and it's true this is one of the few things in the game a mage can do that is beyond horrible and is solely limited to being doable via magic, at the same time, because of the magic, at least Hawke got to say goodbye.

[Icy Magebane]

You left out the random acts of torture that occur pretty much constantly... the Templars torturing a Dalish, Keldor torturing and murdering Dalish girls, the sound of torture whenever you're near that one gate in the Gallows... it's a pretty messed up story all around. I mean, IMO, if anything good happened, it was like finding an oasis in the desert... nothing that you'd expect, and if it happened, you'd hold onto it for as long as possible because you know it won't last.

Leandra's death still annoys me simply because the ending where she survived was removed because some playtesters picked that ending too often. Sure, some person from Bioware might come in here and say that never happened, but I don't believe them. What I've heard about that quest is far more plausible than them never creating this possibility... but like I say with so many other aspects of this game... w/e. It's a depressing story that I probably went through more times than I should have. Still a good game though... depressing or not.

[Tommyspa]

My top two were The deep roads death, this one just made me mad, I was not expecting, good job bioware, very good! And killing Anders, this one was chilling, considering I killed him for RP purposes and I like him, seeing how I'm all pro mage and all.

[John Epler]

If you bring Anders on Varric's Act Two quest and temporarily cure Bartrand - the VA really nailed that one. Some of my favourite dialogue in the game - I wish I could go back and re-do those scenes, as I really don't feel that I did them justice.

[Erani]

Mother and Deep Roads deaths were the worst. I haven't been able to kill Anders, just can't do it.

[Melca36]

JohnEpler wrote...

If you bring Anders on Varric's Act Two quest and temporarily cure Bartrand - the VA really nailed that one. Some of my favourite dialogue in the game - I wish I could go back and re-do those scenes, as I really don't feel that I did them justice.

That was one of my favorite scenes. As much as I hated Bartrand...the voice actor did a fabulous job in showing his agony.

[Satyricon331]

I think these things are partly why I dislike replaying the game - it's very bleak and hopeless.  I don't have much of a stomach for such things and DA2 was definitely pushing my limits.  I don't even have the stomach to play a blood mage in either game.  I think someone amongst Bioware's writers needs a hug <3

I would add the moment when you find out that all the miners you've convinced to return to the mine get killed anyway, after all your effort to protect them and up their pay.  Then of course there's Orsino's moment of sunshine.

JohnEpler wrote...
If you bring Anders on Varric's Act Two quest and temporarily cure Bartrand - the VA really nailed that one. Some of my favourite dialogue in the game - I wish I could go back and re-do those scenes, as I really don't feel that I did them justice.

I did so and I thought it was a great scene.

[John Epler]

I realize now that I am probably partially responsible for a small amount of heartache, as I also did the scenes that killed off your sibling in the Deep Roads. Though I don't think any of the player lines were quite as good as Boulton's 'You always were a heartbreaker, Bethany.' Still conflicted on whether or not hiding the actual kill was the right call. At the time I felt so, but I go back and forth on that one.

[Icy Magebane]

Satyricon331 wrote...

I think these things are partly why I dislike replaying the game - it's very bleak and hopeless.  I don't have much of a stomach for such things and DA2 was definitely pushing my limits.

This, even though I've played through this game about 5 times... Leandra's death always bothers me.  The rest, I'm desensitized to, even if it is very depressing.

[coldlogic82]

Don't get me wrong, I love the game. I'm not sure if my post was meant to be half ironic or just cathartic. But I agree with Icy Magebane, pretty much everything in the game I've seen before so it's not that bad... except Hawke's mother's death. And I considered putting the massacre at the mines on there too actually, I really liked the foreman. Also brought up and considered for my list were the elf torture problems. The two criminals being harbored by the Qunari having killed a guard that raped their sister (reminiscent of the city elf origin in the DA:O) and Aveline's "I heard rumors, *now* I'll investigate them." And I also agree with the John and Melca. You go in there all ready for revenge, and then he gets a momentary cure, and you totally waffle. I've played through on each class (I'm a little OCD) and that's one decision I still never really know what to do.

Also, I almost put selling Fenris back into slavery, or killing him at the end of the game... but I really hate Fenris. Templar and Mages aside, his extreme "that bee stung me, it must be a mage" attitude was so extreme and annoying, So, in rather good spirits I almost did sell him into slavery again (waffled at the last moment, but got a nice 35 rivalry points out of it), and actually, killing him at the end kinda made me feel better. And that was on my warrior.

[Sajuro]

Filament wrote...

It could be worse... they could have killed off Barkwall. Or killed off Hawke and then had Barkwall just sitting there by his door in a time lapse for years until finally dying of old age.

don't give bioware ideas.
I thought that Anders' character was one long string of prozac moments, he goes from the flirtatious and funny mage in Awakening to a man tormented and haunted by the knowledge that not only did he warp one of his friends irrevesibly when trying to do the right thing, now the spirit is slowly gaining more and more control over Anders.
I thought losing Isabella was very sad, and the Keeper dieing after taking the demon into herself.

[Xewaka]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Satyricon331 wrote...
I think these things are partly why I dislike replaying the game - it's very bleak and hopeless.  I don't have much of a stomach for such things and DA2 was definitely pushing my limits.

This, even though I've played through this game about 5 times... Leandra's death always bothers me.  The rest, I'm desensitized to, even if it is very depressing.

First thing that came into my mind in that scene was "bride of Frankenstein spoof" and it lost any impact it could have.

[Bryy_Miller]

JohnEpler wrote...

If you bring Anders on Varric's Act Two quest and temporarily cure Bartrand - the VA really nailed that one. Some of my favourite dialogue in the game - I wish I could go back and re-do those scenes, as I really don't feel that I did them justice.

Puts that on his list.

[Melca36]

JohnEpler wrote...

I realize now that I am probably partially responsible for a small amount of heartache, as I also did the scenes that killed off your sibling in the Deep Roads. Though I don't think any of the player lines were quite as good as Boulton's 'You always were a heartbreaker, Bethany.' Still conflicted on whether or not hiding the actual kill was the right call. At the time I felt so, but I go back and forth on that one.

Ok I have a silly question...Is Bethany supposed to look more sick than Carver in that scene?

Oh an I am glad we didn't experienc "The Kill". I would have to put the game aside for a few days if that happened:crying:

I would have liked a drunk Hawke scene a few weeks after returning from The Deep Roads though.

[whykikyouwhy]

@coldlogic82 - That's quite the list, and I agree on several points. I don't think you rated anything low - that's really all subjective, so no need to second guess yourself. The emotional impact will vary from player to player, I'd wager.

One thing not included on your list was the On the Loose quest - when Huon kills Nyssa. I had a moment of hope that something could be done to prevent anything ill befalling Nyssa, then Huon appears and captures her briefly in his thrall - it's that embrace that was so cruel - how he pulled her to him. Just...wince-worthy.

Aside from the above, what impacted me most were bits of dialogue/companion cutscenes:

Isabela - I was very torn and bothered during my first playthrough when she confesses to everything regarding the relic. It wasn't that I didn't want my Hawke to help her (Hawke had been helping herself to plenty), or that I didn't feel it was right to help her, but it was a choice filled with weight. I didn't know how it would turn out, I didn't know if would be all for naught. My gut and heart as a player, and as someone immersed in the character, told me to give her the relic. But that weight made the aftermath of the decision difficult. (I'll go on record as saying that the reward of her Han Solo-esque return made it worth it, so maybe this example was not so depressing or tragic - just heavy).

Aveline - When she talks about Wesley and how Hawke had to give the mercy killing - "that cut was cruel." I don't know. It stung. It still stings, 4th playthrough in. Another moment with weight.

Merrill - When Merrill ponders why Pol ran from her in the Mirror Image quest. Just a tug on the heart strings.

Bethany - While not a bad moment, exactly, the chat that she and Hawke have in Legacy, post Malcolm's Will, just makes me misty-eyed. As does the end scene of the DLC if you play it after Act 2. That's when I know that Bioware has done their job and taken me on an emotional journey (or that I'm a big sap) - when some dialogue makes me feel deeply, and heavily. It stings, it hurts, and yet, as dark as the game can get, it's really something beautiful for all of that.

[Sir Edric]

And this is exactly why I think DA2 was a great game. No other game has shown this much emotion, and I almost cried in a few moments when a friend of mine played some sad music at the same time. One reason why I love BW<3

Modifié par Vrex_12, 10 août 2011 - 10:08 .

[TobiTobsen]

Vrex_12 wrote...

And this is exactly why I think DA2 was a great game. No other game has shown this much emotion, and I almost cried in a few moments when a friend of mine played some sad music at the same time. One reason why I love BW<3

Meh... after playing DA2 for the first time I was more like "There is a point when it's just to much".

It becomes kind of dull, if you ask me. Nothing good happens to Hawke. Just bad stuff. I wrote somewhere that it seemed like Hawke was carrying a "kick me" sign around and the fate was happy to oblige. If something good happend ("yay, you're rich now!") it was always coupled with something bad that outweighed it ("but your brother/sister is dead/a warden/a templar/dragged to the circle").

I missed the feeling that I accomplished something. All I had at the end of the game was the fact that my Hawke lost his whole family, wasn't able to stop the war that now will engulf Thedas, was abandoned by his friends, had to go into hiding and then disappeared anyway and all he got was the title "Champion of Kirkwall" that doesn't really meant anything.

I'm not really into Downer Endings, but I can appreciate them. DA2 was just one giant "kick him, while he is down" scenario and just a little bit to "low" even for my "low fantasy" taste.

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 10 août 2011 - 10:41 .

[Aradace]

My opinons on each of those moments

10.) The only one I felt any "connection" to was Bethany. Carver is a sodding ****** and got what was comming to him. Sorry, that's just how I feel about Carver lol.

9.) See #10

8.) Idol or not, Bartrand got what was coming to him. Then end

7.) I always go solo into the Fade during that quest so that I dont get any Rivalry points with characters that I dont want them for when I give Feynriel to the demon. (I do it purely for the points and yes, Im a metagamer )

6.) Your opinion on that one pretty much sums it up for me for the most part. Sure, I hate Fenris almost as much as I hate Carver but selling out your own blood just to become a Magister? Really? That's low even by MY standards. ***** got what was coming to her when Fenris ripped out her heart.

5.) Sorry, but Merathari was a retard for doing that. First or no, she should have kept her nose out of Merrill's business. Once again, once Merathari decided to take the demon into her, noble as her intentions were, she still deserved what she got.

4.) I felt bad for the Vicount in that moment, but as the response I always use in that scenario, I apply to RL as well: The city needs you strong and not to fall apart right now. As for Petrice's death in general, she was the only character in the game I wanted dead more than Carver. My only regret is that I didnt get to kill her myself

3.) Unless Im "roleplaying" an almost "Avaline" type character, I ALWAYS let Anders live, no questions. And those types of characters are very few and far between for me lol. What Anders did was completely justified IMO.

2.) The Chantry being destroyed was probably the single greatest Homer Simpson "Wohooo!!!" moment for me. Seriously, every playthrough I do and I get to that part, I seriously give out a loud Homer Simpson "Wohoo!!" It's funny because my wife knows exactly where I am in the story when I do that

1.) Gotta say the death of Hawke's mother pissed me off a great deal. However, the dialog leading up to that point  with Quintin my first time through, I had my self a serious Seven "What's in the boooooooox?!" moment. This is probably the closest Ive ever come in a video game to actually "feeling" what the character does in that moment. Was never teary eyed or what not mind you, but the base emotion of "holy crap, that bastardo just kill my mother" was definately there.

Modifié par Aradace, 10 août 2011 - 11:07 .

[JnEricsonx]

Filament wrote...

It could be worse... they could have killed off Barkwall. Or killed off Hawke and then had Barkwall just sitting there by his door in a time lapse for years until finally dying of old age.

Ok, I had frakking tears in my eyes in that scene in Futurama.  And whats worse, several months later I buried my own dog, and she died on my BIRTHDAY.    Even when I mentioned that ep to Billy West at a convention, he waved it off quickly because apparently "that episode was depressing for everyone"

[LobselVith8]

coldlogic82 wrote...

5.  The Keeper takes in the demon:  The Keeper of the Dalish clan sacrifices herself to save Merril because she is wise where Merril is niave.  The death of the Keeper was a tragic scene, and it's made a lot worse if you have Fenris or Anders in your party, or even worse than that, both.  They say horrible things like the world is a horrible place she died and not Merril, while Merril obviously wishes more than anything the Keeper didn't pay her price for her.  Choose 2 of 3 options upon exiting the cave and you get the even more depressing task of wiping out an entire Dalish Clan.

Merrill's naive while the Keeper's wise? How wise is it to become an abomination and not tell anyone? Merrill brought Hawke to take care of her if anything bad happened, while Marethari just risked the lives of everyone in the camp. And I honestly didn't find the 2 options depressing - I didn't really feel bad protecting Merrill from a group of people who decided to commit suicide by Hawke.

That said, I think you bring up some good examples - I can't imagine how bad it would be for Fenris to reunite with his sister only to discover she sold him out to Danarius, of all people.

[Aradace]

JohnEpler wrote...

I realize now that I am probably partially responsible for a small amount of heartache, as I also did the scenes that killed off your sibling in the Deep Roads. Though I don't think any of the player lines were quite as good as Boulton's 'You always were a heartbreaker, Bethany.' Still conflicted on whether or not hiding the actual kill was the right call. At the time I felt so, but I go back and forth on that one.

It would have added "more" to the intended emotion behind the scene IMHO had it actually been shown.  Just my personal opinion though

[rak72]

I think one reason why DA2 didn't have such a stellar reception was because the writers were trying to get kicks feeding off our tears. The player needs to feel they accomplished something great after they finish a game. For me I didn't feel I accomplished a single thing, I just disappeared all alone, somewhere in the mountains. Whats the point.

At the end of DAO I was all, "woo hoo, I'm queen of Fereldan, I have a hot husband, and I saved Fereldan!!! Time to wave to my admirers".

At the end of DA2, I was like, "pft, what a load of cr*p, at least let me disappear with the hot chantry boy".

[Herr Uhl]

rak72 wrote...

I think one reason why DA2 didn't have such a stellar reception was because the writers were trying to get kicks feeding off our tears. The player needs to feel they accomplished something great after they finish a game. For me I didn't feel I accomplished a single thing, I just disappeared all alone, somewhere in the mountains. Whats the point.

At the end of DAO I was all, "woo hoo, I'm queen of Fereldan, I have a hot husband, and I saved Fereldan!!! Time to wave to my admirers".

At the end of DA2, I was like, "pft, what a load of cr*p, at least let me disappear with the hot chantry boy".

Because they didn't just introduce your family to be killed in this specific scenario.