214 réponses à ce sujet

[Nerevar-as]

JnEricsonx wrote...

Filament wrote...

It could be worse... they could have killed off Barkwall. Or killed off Hawke and then had Barkwall just sitting there by his door in a time lapse for years until finally dying of old age.

Ok, I had frakking tears in my eyes in that scene in Futurama.  And whats worse, several months later I buried my own dog, and she died on my BIRTHDAY.    Even when I mentioned that ep to Billy West at a convention, he waved it off quickly because apparently "that episode was depressing for everyone"

I thought they had retconned it in one of the movies. I hope so, only watched the last 5 minutes of that episode and felt horrible the rest of the day.

On topic, none of the "big" moments got much of a response from me. The sibling for instance is too soon and Hawke doesn´t seem to give a damn about it (why did they change the scene from the teaser?).
Other times, as with Leandra´s death, I felt the way the game played and the story didn´t match. On one side we have stupidly over the top combat, on the other a main character who fails at almost everything s/he attempts. I´ve seen this combination work in some animes, but here for me it didn´t.

There were some smaller moments that worked however. My favorite was the Keeper´s death. What made it work was the moment the demon tries to trick the party, and Merrill approaches hopeful. Then Hawke tells her the Keeper had warned them only her death could stop the demon, and Merrill proceeds.

[Reznore57]

The Saarebas who kill himself to follow the Qun.
He does believe that his suicide is for the greater good and is at peace with it.
It's really disturbing to have faith overcome basic survival instinct.
I can't say if it's a act of courage or stupidity .
But it was really disturbing and sad.

[Wynne]

TobiTobsen wrote...

Meh... after playing DA2 for the first time I was more like "There is a point when it's just to much".

It becomes kind of dull, if you ask me. Nothing good happens to Hawke. Just bad stuff. I wrote somewhere that it seemed like Hawke was carrying a "kick me" sign around and the fate was happy to oblige. If something good happend ("yay, you're rich now!") it was always coupled with something bad that outweighed it ("but your brother/sister is dead/a warden/a templar/dragged to the circle").

I missed the feeling that I accomplished something. All I had at the end of the game was the fact that my Hawke lost his whole family, wasn't able to stop the war that now will engulf Thedas, was abandoned by his friends, had to go into hiding and then disappeared anyway and all he got was the title "Champion of Kirkwall" that doesn't really mean anything.

I'm not really into Downer Endings, but I can appreciate them. DA2 was just one giant "kick him, while he is down" scenario and just a little bit to "low" even for my "low fantasy" taste.

Yeah. You could see the George R.R. Martin influence, but really, it almost makes him look a cheery sort of fellow in comparison. Game of Thrones at least made me feel some hope that things could work out for the better someday.

I haven't played DA2 for a while now and I have trouble imagining doing so again. It's just not enjoyable, despite how much I loved certain aspects (Fenris, for instance.) Despite the moments of humor and warmth, it feels like the whole thing has this unifying thread of utter, utter desolation. The "rise to power" and wealth is, ironically, the opposite of fun; those things represent ruin and lonely, bitter despair. It makes you realize how hollow they actually are. I guess that was the point? Making the player feel like, "Hey, my life is a cakewalk compared to this"?

I don't know. I just wish there was more of a sense of balance. With Mass Effect, you feel like Shepard can't do everything, but is still able to make a difference if she fights really hard and refuses to excuse herself from taking action. Shepard is able to say or do the right thing where it counts. Hawke... Hawke is just a leaf adrift on the wind, being bandied about, helpless to affect anything, not even a 5% chance of averting any major crisis even if he/she does everything she can. It all turns out the same in the end.

Screw carrying over content, if that's the case. I'd rather nothing I do be mentioned ever again in the sequels than be limited to "there's a lot of death and tragedy and everything goes to hell no matter what your impotent ass does. But hey, you're powerful!"

Dragon Age isn't a contained trilogy. It can't do what Mass Effect can even half as elegantly. I'd prefer they scrap the attempts to carry things over and just give me a story I can influence, even if I have to work really hard to do so. That's where I'd like to see the series go.

[RagingCyclone]

There are two moments in this list I felt could have been done better. I have admitted there was little moving for me in DA2, but that is my hang-up. There are some points that could have been done differently, however, that would have drawn an emtional connection.

First, the Bethany/Carver taint. When it happens I find myself wondering why so long? Wesley is affected rather quickly, but your sibling's takes days. I think if that scene had come up before the rock wraith would have worked better for me. Then not only would there be the tension of finding a way to survive, but also would have put a time limit for saving your sibling. Having Anders perhaps mentioning the Grey Wardens, but first needing to get out of the predicament you are in would have doubled the tension for me.

Second, the one regarding your mother's death. The male VA for me was not very convincing when following the blood trail. Perhaps I kept thinking about Vaughn from the CE origin being it's the same VA, but I never got a sense that he was greatly concerned. The female VA was 10 times better at conveying an urgency to finding your mother. Then the final part of that quest for me is too close to Bride of Frankenstein. That could be the fault of the art direction taken. But even so, I would have felt more if mother had not talked at all. Her talking to Hawke saying how proud she was for me was laughable. I would have felt more if she did not speak. Then it would have been "here is mother walking and breathing, but it's not her, she's already gone." Then it would have left a gap for a feeling of closure for Hawke. A chance to have regret and sorrow for the lost opportunity for closure. That's what I felt was missing for an emotional attachment for me as a player.

[John Epler]

Aradace wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

I realize now that I am probably partially responsible for a small amount of heartache, as I also did the scenes that killed off your sibling in the Deep Roads. Though I don't think any of the player lines were quite as good as Boulton's 'You always were a heartbreaker, Bethany.' Still conflicted on whether or not hiding the actual kill was the right call. At the time I felt so, but I go back and forth on that one.

It would have added "more" to the intended emotion behind the scene IMHO had it actually been shown.  Just my personal opinion though

Yeah, there's a reason why that particular moment is the one I'm most conflicted about in DA2. Even what I consider to be the weakest scene I did (Grace killing Thrask - I should have set it up so there was more of a reason why the player didn't intervene, which I feel was a big problem with how I did that scene) doesn't cause me as much consternation as the sibling death. The problem was - I had (and still have) a hard time visualizing a scenario that wouldn't A) seem contrived and cheesy, or  would work with all the personalities.

I'll probably never stop second-guessing that one, but I learned some good lessons from it.

[Gervaise]

I found the fact that the mother could still talk was a bit odd, given this was meant to be a patched together job of several women who had been killed to achieve it and therefore surely their spirits should already have gone.  But it was a kick in the guts that I couldn't save her.   In fact it seemed like getting there a moment too late, or catching on to something just too late to prevent something, or, worse still, knowing full well that something stinks but not allowed to follow your instincts, was a feature of many of the main/related plot threads.   The Anders one takes the biscuit - I would have locked him up and refused to let him out until he told me exactly what he was planning, and that would be before collecting any ingredients. 

Strangely enough, though, the fact that there were so many horrific moments, examples of sadism, torture, mad mages, cruel templars, etc, meant that I became less and less engaged emotionally.   It packs far more emotional punch when you have a generally "normal" situation and then something really horrible intrudes - but by Act 3 it was like, this is just a regular day in Kirkwall.  However, Orsino was another example of depression trigger - because first run through I had missed the note in Quentins lair, so I had no idea he had been implicated until I got to him in the gallows and then not only do I discover his involvement but he virtually justifies Meredith's paranoia by killing the surviving mages, using the same blood magic and transfering into the Harvester.  (And I checked on subsequent run throughs and he is not using mages already killed by Templars - he did it).   When you have gone to so much trouble to try and save the mages, not because you necessarily believe in their total freedom but because you don't agree with innocent people being killed for something they didn't do (and you were partly responsible for), that really sucks.

Generally though I resent being screwed over plotwise and it was clear that is what was going on here.   Perhaps if there could have been a few more uplifting moments to counter all the dark, depressing ones, like (in no particular order):
1) Isabella unexpectedly returning with the tome and then getting to save her from the Arishok.
2) Defending Bethany against the Templars - still non blood mage and wonderful even after her experiences in the Circle.
3) Helping Feynriel conquer his demons and avoid Tranquility.
4) Helping the path of romance run true for Averline - she is ridiculous but it was at least a lightening of the mood.
5) My relationship with Fenris, which started off heading for rivalry, then went in the other direction and finally just before the Last Straw achieved full friendship and confession of undying devotion to my Hawke mage (and no I didn't have to sell out my principles to achieve this).
These stick in my mind because, unlike so many others, they didn't come back to bite me

[rak72]

We can save Feynriel????

[LadyJaneGrey]

rak72 wrote...

We can save Feynriel????

Yes, though he then becomes a Tevinter magister's apprentice.  I'm not sure that's going to end happily for him. 

[Gespenst]

^^ Yeah, kill Torpor then convince him the situations are bogus without mentioning demons (might not be neccesary) if you do that he'll leave for Tevinter to master his powers (they're the only ones that still know anything about it) unless you tell him you can't let him go and kill him. You might also have to let him go to the Dalish instead of the circle, I'm not sure.

^ Things seem to be going alright for him at the three year mark at least.

by killing the surviving mages, using the same blood magic and transfering into the Harvester.

Are you sure they weren't dead? If not they were doing a remarkable corpse impression. Orsino going mad with despair no matter what was the one thing I'd say was unequivocally a mistake in my opinion.

Modifié par Gespenst, 10 août 2011 - 05:04 .

[Herr Uhl]

Gespenst wrote...

by killing the surviving mages, using the same blood magic and transfering into the Harvester.

Are you sure they weren't dead? If not they were doing a remarkable corpse impression. Orsino going mad with despair no matter what was the one thing I'd say was unequivocally a mistake in my opinion.

This is one of the things that confuse me in that case, I thought that the power in blood magic came from the life-force in the one being used, or can you just use a pitcher filled with blood?

Edit: Though admittedly, he could have used his own blood to fuel it.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 10 août 2011 - 05:22 .

[esper]

I think it is the residue life energy. A little like how grave robber works until you up grade it. An also that thing that make some no so smart demons job into corspes because the can't tell the difference between the living and the dead.

[Gespenst]

Herr Uhl wrote...

This is one of the things that confuse me in that case, I thought that the power in blood magic came from the life-force in the one being used, or can you just use a pitcher filled with blood?

Edit: Though admittedly, he could have used his own blood to fuel it.

He did cut his own wrist (or palm I forget which) before he started the spell. For blood magic you can use your own blood or other people's blood although the really huge feats of magic (like carving out the bay to make the docks/gallows) either requires a vast amount of lyrium or the blood of many people. He used their corpses but the blood that fuelled the spell was his own. I think the blood you're using can be stored (you could cut yourself once every few days to store up some blood if you were a blood mage maybe?) but I don't think anyone ever goes into it. Maybe it has an expiration, I don't know. But I think it has to be the blood of a sentient species - human, elf, dwarf or kossith.

And blood seems to be a much more effective powersource than lyrium (in Origins it's suggested that the life force of one person is equal to all the lyrium that the circle has available at one time - or that's how I interpreted it) that's why even a blood mage that only uses his own blood is so powerful.

Modifié par Gespenst, 10 août 2011 - 05:41 .

[Gervaise]

For Feynriel is doesn't matter if you send him to the Circle initially or to the Dalish.  The encounter in the Fade is still the same with regard to options - you just have to ensure he realises the demon's deception for himself rather than say, "it's a demon."
How you think he turns out would I suppose depend on whether you agree with Fenris that the only way to get on in Tevinter is to become corrupt.  Given how the majority of "free" mages turn out in Kirkwall it doesn't look promising.  However, in his letter he does say how surprised he is to see the way magic is openly used for such violent purposes as mages duelling in the street and that perhaps the attitude of the Templars is not wholly without foundation (or words to that effect), so there is a glimmer of hope that he will take the knowledge he receives and then put it to good use.  As a dreamer he is actually in a stronger position than most as if another mage tries to force him into doing something he doesn't want to, he can just enter the Fade and stop them.    I think it is just a case of giving him the benefit of the doubt since it is either that, kill him or make him tranquil.     The first time I messed up on this one and had him begging me in the Fade to make him Tranquil and that made me feel really bad.  It even had Anders shocked at the request and that is saying something.

[LobselVith8]

LadyJaneGrey wrote...

rak72 wrote...

We can save Feynriel????

Yes, though he then becomes a Tevinter magister's apprentice.  I'm not sure that's going to end happily for him. 

Feynriel does end up controlling his powers and saving a woman from getting raped, and he might end up being successful in changing how the Imperium is run because he's a powerful Dreamer (the last Magister who tried to end slavery wasn't powerful enough to deal with his opponents and was killed).

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Playing the whole of DA2 resulted in me needing Prozac.

But there were a couple of moments in the game that were worthy of genuine tears.

The one that stands out the most is Anders when he talks about msising Ser Pounce-a-Lot, and how he misses having a cat. I think Anders honestly needs the Pounce to keep him sane.

[Aradace]

JohnEpler wrote...

Aradace wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

I realize now that I am probably partially responsible for a small amount of heartache, as I also did the scenes that killed off your sibling in the Deep Roads. Though I don't think any of the player lines were quite as good as Boulton's 'You always were a heartbreaker, Bethany.' Still conflicted on whether or not hiding the actual kill was the right call. At the time I felt so, but I go back and forth on that one.

It would have added "more" to the intended emotion behind the scene IMHO had it actually been shown.  Just my personal opinion though

Yeah, there's a reason why that particular moment is the one I'm most conflicted about in DA2. Even what I consider to be the weakest scene I did (Grace killing Thrask - I should have set it up so there was more of a reason why the player didn't intervene, which I feel was a big problem with how I did that scene) doesn't cause me as much consternation as the sibling death. The problem was - I had (and still have) a hard time visualizing a scenario that wouldn't A) seem contrived and cheesy, or  would work with all the personalities.

I'll probably never stop second-guessing that one, but I learned some good lessons from it.

Could have set it up in a similar fashion like with Wesley's death.  Have two of the options that end with Hawke actually dealing the blow and a possible 3rd where he/she cant bring themselves to do it and simply gives Beth/Carver the weapon to do it themselves.  Or even have an option where you can call on a party member to "do the deed" because he/she couldnt bring themselves to do it.

But you learned and took something away from that which in the end will help to better shape future scenarios like that one.  At least that's what I think anyway

[Pygmalin]

Icy Magebane wrote...

You left out the random acts of torture that occur pretty much constantly... the Templars torturing a Dalish, Keldor torturing and murdering Dalish girls, the sound of torture whenever you're near that one gate in the Gallows... it's a pretty messed up story all around. I mean, IMO, if anything good happened, it was like finding an oasis in the desert... nothing that you'd expect, and if it happened, you'd hold onto it for as long as possible because you know it won't last.

However the is something oddly satisfing and Ironic to allow Fenris to kill him.  Elf killing the Elf torturer. poetic. 

[thegoldfinch]

Herr Uhl wrote...

This is one of the things that confuse me in that case, I thought that the power in blood magic came from the life-force in the one being used, or can you just use a pitcher filled with blood?

Edit: Though admittedly, he could have used his own blood to fuel it.

Okay. This is completely OT, but as a person who is incapable of donating blood without vomitting or passing out or both at once due to hypoglycemia, I would love to see at least one blood mage who dramatically uses copious amounts of his own blood to charge up a terrifying spell, only to pass out from low blood sugar. Even if it's just comic relief. I don't care.

Every time I see some mage gushing up blood to charge up a spell, I'm like, you better eat a cookie bro. :|

Modifié par pixieface, 10 août 2011 - 10:12 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Gespenst wrote...

by killing the surviving mages, using the same blood magic and transfering into the Harvester.

Are you sure they weren't dead? If not they were doing a remarkable corpse impression. Orsino going mad with despair no matter what was the one thing I'd say was unequivocally a mistake in my opinion.

This is one of the things that confuse me in that case, I thought that the power in blood magic came from the life-force in the one being used, or can you just use a pitcher filled with blood?

Edit: Though admittedly, he could have used his own blood to fuel it.

Blood magic, I think, it a very complicated and difficult to define discipline. In general, you are right. Blood magic is powered by the blood, which carries the life force of the being. And I am guessing blood, even after being removed from a living being, still carries that life force in it long after it has been removed, depending on storage and preperation.

The Chantry's own defitions even seem suspect, given that phylacteries filled with blood are used by the Circle and templars to track apprentices. I think when it comes to blood magic, you have 2 definitions: The Chantry one, and non Chantry defition, which seems to be broader.

So yeah, I'm guessing you can use a pitcher of blood.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

pixieface wrote...


Okay. This is completely OT, but as a person who is incapable of donating blood without vomitting or passing out or both at once due to hypoglycemia, I would love to see at least one blood mage who dramatically uses copious amounts of his own blood to charge up a terrifying spell, only to pass out from low blood sugar. Even if it's just comic relief. I don't care.

Every time I see some mage gushing up blood to charge up a spell, I'm like, you better eat a cookie bro. :|

LOL, OMG, thank you. You just gave me a comic idea to ponder next time I play blood mage in DAO. Raiding Sten's Cookie stash before I get ready to throw some blood powered death clouds!

[rpgfan321]

pixieface wrote...

Okay. This is completely OT, but as a person who is incapable of donating blood without vomitting or passing out or both at once due to hypoglycemia, I would love to see at least one blood mage who dramatically uses copious amounts of his own blood to charge up a terrifying spell, only to pass out from low blood sugar. Even if it's just comic relief. I don't care.

Every time I see some mage gushing up blood to charge up a spell, I'm like, you better eat a cookie bro. :|

Lol~~~~

It better be a double chocolate fudge cookie. Mmmm.... cookie....

[cdtrk65]

Filament wrote...

It could be worse... they could have killed off Barkwall. Or killed off Hawke and then had Barkwall just sitting there by his door in a time lapse for years until finally dying of old age.

...his dog Herbert, you know how us Feraldans are with our dogs..(or something like that)

....otherwise no more Hachi for you....

sorry back to your prozac moments..

[Sajuro]

LadyJaneGrey wrote...

rak72 wrote...

We can save Feynriel????

Yes, though he then becomes a Tevinter magister's apprentice.  I'm not sure that's going to end happily for him. 

He does save a woman from being raped in Act 3

[Jennifer Brandes Hepler]

Dragon Age has always been a game that has pushed the idea of tragedy. When we first discussed having Alistair sacrifice himself out of love of the Warden, there was debate over whether players would find that moving or just be frustrated that he made a decision they couldn't control. We decided to go with what we all reacted to in our guts as a cool emotional moment, and it became a defining part of DA:O for people who experienced it.

I certainly don't deny that most of our writers tend to prefer tragic moments. For me, personally, I've never really trusted an author who wasn't willing to kill a likeable character. Happy endings often feel cheap and unearned. But I have also experienced tragedy-fatigue (parts of GRRM, or the second Melanie Rawn Dragon trilogy come to mind), and I'm sorry if DAII reached that level for some people. I think it's particularly hard to judge the tragedy-per-square-foot sweet spot in a game, since the pacing is very different if you play it over a few days, a few weeks or a few months. I imagine the faster you play, the more saturated it seems.

That said, it is important to us on the team that Dragon Age continue to push the bounds of what a videogame can make you feel. And for that, sorrowful or touching events are a far better guage than happy ones. If your character gets everything he wants, are you feeling happy because you genuinely empathize with him, or just because you've "won" the game? It's when you stop to help a character that you get no benefit from just because you care about him as a person, or mourn the loss of someone like Leandra, who had no game benefit, that we've really reached past the limits of the game with the story.

So, while we have certainly been disapointed in the number of fans who didn't feel a sense of agency with Hawke because of all the emotional events surrounding her/him -- and will be taking steps to ensure a better feeling of personal impact in future stories -- Dragon Age products will likely continue to push the boundaries of dark fantasy and human tragedy. So, while you may experience greater victories in future products, it wouldn't be Dragon Age if they didn't come at a cost.

[TEWR]

I didn't feel much of anything when anyone in the family died. My first playthrough didn't make me care for Carver when the Ogre killed him, nor did I feel anything for Leandra (it didn't help that she flopped around during the battle. That made me laugh).

While tragedy is good, I feel that if you do too much tragedy and too much death, it becomes annoying, repetitive, and just makes a person not really care anymore.

I feel like the siblings should've lived and Leandra's death would've sufficed for something that happens no matter what (no happy ending), and there could've been more emotion if Carver became a Grey Warden while Bethany is taken to the Circle.

Or Bethany becomes a GW and Carver becomes a Templar.

Or Carver dies in the DR and Hawke and Bethany watch as he dies with tears in their eyes (or Bethany dies. It could've been dependent on whether you brought a warrior character or Merrill with you to determine who dies, since Anders is the only way for someone to become a GW).

So much death really just made me go "....meh".

Human tragedy shouldn't be done into oblivion imo, which is how DA2 made me feel. But that's just specific to me.



EDIT: meant for in the family. I did however feel sad for other characters and for Bartrand. As much of a bastard as he is, I can never bring myself to kill him (after I stop playing the Embellishment scene over and over again)

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 11 août 2011 - 03:15 .