310 réponses à ce sujet

[Mad Method]

 Hello,

Looks like one of my posts has been derailing another thread, so I'm posting it here so it gets its own thread.

Alicia Keys wrote...

Why do people hate Dragon Age 2 so much? What is soooo bad about it?

I only played the demo, but I've seen some LP and review material and a lot of griping, so I'm pretty confident about the following:

Aesthetics:

• Over-the-top combat animations.
• The redone graphics are pretty ugly.
• Kirkwall is somewhat dull rather than the interesting, big, bustling city it's meant to be. 90% of the game takes place at Kirkwall, so this is a problem.
• Not enough variation in art.
• The music is pretty forgettable.

Combat:

• Bad tactical management: no tactical camera, can't fully disable AI anymore, sometimes your orders get inexplicably ignored even with 100% blank tactics, no more weapon swap hotkey, hold position wont work past a certain distance, trap detection is short-ranged, and party members willfully walk into detected traps.
• Reduced variety to differentiate the classes: Warriors can no longer dualwield or use bows. Rogues can no longer use two-handers or shields at all. And Warrior and Rogue armors now have completely different requirements.
• Wave combat ruins strategy.
• Normal combat is too easy and boring while hard combat is mainly more time-consuming.
• Too much filler combat.
• Talent trees have too many dumb requirements like asking you to take both sustained abilities (while you can only use one of the two) to get better talents.

Story:

• Mage-templar struggle is poorly played out: All we see is crazy mages and crazy templars, so an intelligent discussion of systemic oppression is averted in favor of a bunch of crazies going at it instead. There's barely a clue about why it must be so bad to just be in the circle. Bethany even likes it there.
• Party members act like they belong on some bad sitcom.
• Rivalry system is poorly designed. Rivalry is also a disapproval meter so being completely amoral will somehow also earn you the grudging respect of your teammates.
• Narrative has issues with realism: a mage Hawke never gets much trouble as a mage, esp. as a blood mage; a champion and noble Hawke never performs any of a noble's duties; Meredith decides to leave Ander's fate to you even as she goes after the circle in revenge; etc.
• A lot of dialog just sounds stupid, especially the "funny" Hawke.
• Dialog wheel is an unreliable indicator of what your character will actually say.
• Too many fakeouts with choices that should have tangible consequences but really dont.
• Too many cases where you're wondering "Why can't I just [x]?" and the answer is just because the story demands it.
• Your DAO choices just get lip service for the most part.
• Story is too linear. Feels like it's on rails.
• There is no sense of a cohesive narrative. Stuff just seems to happen while you're there, some of it to you, and that's it.
• Really lousy ending.
• Time-skips would make a lot more sense if they were months instead of years.

General WTF:

• Levels are reused way too much - ie. sewers should look like sewers, not generic warehouses.
• Too many completely pointless and vapid fetchquests.
• It's raining men.
• Time skips far ahead and everything looks the same. Fenris's mansion still has dead bodies in it, even.
• Those DirectX11 graphics really shouldn't need DirectX11.
• There's some DRM controversy I'm not clear on.

Not part of the game but still leaves a sour taste to accompany that DA2:

• Bioware/EA has locked some people out of their EA accounts for BSN forum behavior, which means they can't activate their DA2 game or download/install games they bought with EA's download service.
• Bioware has been caught secretly posting DA2 "user" reviews to inflate metacritic scores.
• Charging money for launch-day DLC.
• Project Ten Dollar: Adding "free" DLC for new copies so used copies cost $10 more paid to EA if they want the same content. Has the added, intentional effect of hurting your new copy's resale/regift value, unless you want to give away your Bioware account with it.
• Too many really bad and overpriced DLCs.
• DLC salesmen in DAO.
• Too much ridiculous pandering and exclusive promotions.
• Bioware seems almost proud of their mistakes.

Like I said, I haven't played the game, so I reckon I've missed stuff. But yes, there's a long list of bad decisions in DA2. I'm open for any further discussion and may revise this list as needed. This thread isn't an invitation to just complain but to give clear reasons for why you do or don't like DA2. Also, try to avoid quoting this post in its entirety.

Modifié par Mad Method, 20 août 2011 - 06:05 .

[Olmerto]

Very good, comprehensive list. I especially agree with your points on aesthetics since that is what really jumps out at you in the demo. The aesthetics give no sense of a medieval fantasy setting and destroy any ability to become immersed in the story, such as it is.

[xkg]

Yeah your list is ok and all but if you want to be taken seriously i advise you to remove this point:

Mad Method wrote...

• Bioware has been caught secretly posting DA2 "user" reviews to inflate metacritic scores.

It was not "BIOWARE" and it wasn't "INFLATING SCORES"
It was Bioware's employee (one that didn't even worked on DA2) posting his private review.

The way you describing it - it sounds very bad and ... ehm you know - more like false acussation.

[alex90c]

pffff, DA2 still got crap scores regardless

[nitefyre410]

hmm the matrix must be glitching again - i am getting a sense of deja'vu

[Phaelducan]

You haven't played the game? Why would you even make that post? Playing something then reviewing it is usually the order you should go in. It's all hearsay otherwise. The demo and some Lets Play vids just don't cut it.

[Mad Method]

xkg, well, I heard there was more than one reviewer at it, and I definitely heard EA vouch for at least one, saying that it's perfectly acceptable behavior to vote user scores for your own games. So, I'll leave it like that until we get a clear story.

Phaelducan, that's a very knee-jerk response. If my list has problems, point out the problems in the list. Also, this is not a review. I was just trying to answer someone's question with what I've seen.

Modifié par Mad Method, 20 août 2011 - 06:06 .

[Elhanan]

Very good subjective list; too bad it varies according to taste:

* Aesthetics - Diagree on all points; all good for me since last patch. While there are still only a few folks wandering the streets, I do not miss the crowds, and blame it on the gang violence you are rewarded to clear.

* Combat - Camera view can be pulled back enough for my NWN1 style of play a vast majority of the time. While I do agree that the reduced variety in class designs is problematic, the remaining points are fine for my gaming tastes.

* Story - enjoyed it a lot. I disagree on all points except being unseen as a Mage, and this can be explained IG due to region being heavily influenced by the Fade; a Veil of disguise best seen when Merril is first met (ie; not initially recognized as a Mage, nor as a Blood Mage by Hawke). And this is not DAO; no need for heavy ref.

* General - tiles are used frequently, and a sewer tile would have been nice. The sidequests are optional, but can get all of my PC's to 25-26th lvl by conclusion. The rest is fine by me, and I could really care less how the reinforcements arrived.

* The whine list, and I don't drink.

Of course, a lot of this is just my opinion, as was the OP. Guess I enjoyed myself for almost 300 hrs thus far while others made lists like this.....

[Fenris_13]

You haven't played the game? So then this thread is more what you've heared from other people? Greaaaaaat.

[LobselVith8]

You made some good points, Mad Method. Personally, I disliked the story. The dichotomy between the mages and the templars was juvenile, Hawke would apparently go into a coma for three years instead of being proactive, as an apostate there was no illegal mage POV, the dialogue options often had him say something that was entirely different than what was chosen, and the villains (Decimus, Quentin, and the like) were very ridiculous.

[jmadsen]

played the games through 4 times, have spent around 100+ hours, liked it, not everybody hate da2.

[esper]

I don't hate it either. I could be improved, but so could Origins.

[Babli]

I´ve played the game and I agree with everything OP wrote.

[DraCZeQQ]

Oh cmon, lets break the hate/love argument circle based on tons of wrong assumptions on all sides ...

"Everybody hates / loves that" ... not true, no one ever said it ...

"People hate DA2 coz people dont like changes" ... not true, people dont like BAD changes or poorly done changes

"People wanted Origins 2, which would be exactly like Origins" ... not true, people wanted to take everything whats good on Origins, polish it and then expand it with new stuff, new story etc. ... there was no reason to throw everything away and then overhaul it in such a short time like was done with DA2

"Opinions of people who hate DA2 are just subjective" ... this one is true, but the same apply for people who love DA2

[Babli]

DraCZeQQ wrote...

Oh cmon, lets break the hate/love argument circle based on tons of wrong assumptions on all sides ...

"Everybody hates / loves that" ... not true, no one ever said it ...

"People hate DA2 coz people dont like changes" ... not true, people dont like BAD changes or poorly done changes

"People wanted Origins 2, which would be exactly like Origins" ... not true, people wanted to take everything whats good on Origins, polish it and then expand it with new stuff, new story etc. ... there was no reason to throw everything away and then overhaul it in such a short time like was done with DA2

"Opinions of people who hate DA2 are just subjective" ... this one is true, but the same apply for people who love DA2

Well said. Especially bolded part.

[bEVEsthda]

I don't think flaws generate hate.

While DA2 really has some flaws, I don't believe the cause-effect is like that.

I base this upon the observable fact that a lot of people can really like and love playing games that are hugely flawed. And that all games are basically 'flawed' (in some way), so obviously all people can play and like a flawed game. If the game's spirit and flavor is to the taste of the gamer.

What I believe is that it's mainly the aestethics and flavor that generate a first dislike. Disliking the game then makes you find and observe every conceivably flaw (which you would just gloss over if you liked the game).

What finally brings the mere dislike to flame up into burning, caring hatred, is the realization that this abomination from now on replaces the beloved Dragon Age of DA:O. DA2 thus has murdered something a lot of people really cared for. That generates hate.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 10 août 2011 - 03:05 .

[Jamie_edmo]

I didn't hate the game, I was just disappointed in it, I agree with a lot of OP especially the aesthetics part, but with the story although it wasn't the best, I give credit to Bioware for trying to break the mold with it rather than doing another blight story

Modifié par Jamie_edmo, 10 août 2011 - 03:05 .

[Texhnolyze101]

Why do people keep making these SAME threads over and over and over...?

[Sutekh]

 I really have a problem with people judging beyond what they have experienced first-hand, so I'm totally ready to dismiss your whole "review", even though I happen to agree with some of it. Especially considering most of it is opinion. How on Earth you can honestly forge one about something you haven't actually seen or experienced is beyond me. "Honesty" being the keyword here.

I've seen opinions presented as facts many times in this forum, and it's grating in itself. But opinions as facts you haven't experienced or witnessed, based on other people's opinions, about something you know absolutely nothing about because you haven't played the bloody game? This takes the cake.

And your little tabloïd section at the end? Google is your friend. Please use it before spreading rumours that have been refuted or situations that have been rectified months ago. And, again, "overpriced" and "very bad" DLC is a matter of ... opinion. I (mostly) disagree. But what do I know, it's not like I actually played them or the game, right?

Now, let me ask you an honest question in hope of an honest answer.

What are you doing? What's your point in repeating things others way more qualified than you have already said a zillion times, with valid argumentation? Because right now I don't see any apart from validation-seeking, but I'd rather not assume. So?

[happy_daiz]

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

Why do people keep making these SAME threads over and over and over...?

There must be a daily quota. 

[bEVEsthda]

happy_daiz wrote...

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

Why do people keep making these SAME threads over and over and over...?

There must be a daily quota. 

Because it's still there. Like a growth of cancer.
And moderators habitually lock old threads that are bumped. In particular always those critical to DA2.

[LobselVith8]

bEVEsthda wrote...

Because it's still there. Like a growth of cancer.
And moderators habitually lock old threads that are bumped. In particular always those critical to DA2.

And Legacy recently came out, which was the same price as DLC like Old World Blues, but with much, much less content. Not to mention it suffers from the same problem as the main game, where Hawke's choices lead to the same conclusion with some superficial differences, and despite the "Thank You" thread, no effort was made to deal with the problem with there being no significant choices to make as the protagonist - and the conclusion with Larius makes Hawke look mentally deficient for not realizing what was pretty obvious to everyone else.

[Monica21]

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

Why do people keep making these SAME threads over and over and over...?

Honest answer? Because people loved Origins for specific reasons. I thought, "Awesome! I get a real RPG for a change!" And then everything was overhauled and not for the better in DA2. The second reason is that not everyone plays on release date. I just started playing a few days ago even though it's been out for six months. Expressions of disappointment are not limited to within a week or month of release.

[happy_daiz]

I'm not saying that people that dislike or are disappointed by DA2 can't vent their frustrations. Quite the contrary. I think everyone has a right to express their feelings, good or bad, on the subject.

The point of bringing up the number of these threads is that you can do a simple search on the topic, and find a myriad of different threads, a lot of which are still open.