310 réponses à ce sujet

[Babli]

ipgd  wrote...

Maybe I'm the only one but I never wanted DA to go the way of Pokemon.

*sigh*

DraCZeQQ wrote...

Oh cmon, lets break the hate/love argument circle based on tons of wrong assumptions on all sides ...

"Everybody hates / loves that" ... not true, no one ever said it ...

"People hate DA2 coz people dont like changes" ... not true, people dont like BAD changes or poorly done changes

"People wanted Origins 2, which would be exactly like Origins" ... not true, people
wanted to take everything whats good on Origins, polish it and then
expand it with new stuff, new story etc. ... there was no reason to
throw everything away and then overhaul it in such a short time like was
done with DA2

"Opinions of people who hate DA2 are just subjective" ... this one is true, but the same apply for people who love DA2

Modifié par Babli, 10 août 2011 - 06:57 .

[erichtho]

All I can say is that the OP is a well-written answer to the often-asked question "why is DA2 bad?". Both in terms of clarity and comprehensiveness.

Nothing much to discuss above that - only to add some points to the list or to revise them. (or there's also the option of ignoration - which is a bit awkward but at least smarter than flaming it endlessly without an argument to uphold necessary change in precise points).

rantrantrant

[AtreiyaN7]

Babli wrote...

That part, I can agree with. But with Ray Muzyka talking about DA 2 being the right direction of the franchise, I doubt they learned their lesson.

I just dont get why they changed winning formula that was DA:O into... DA 2

Experimentation and branching out, presumably. And Muzyka is basically a suit, as opposed to an actual dev who has been working on the DA games. If Legacy is any indication, the devs have been listening. I think DA2 was an experiment/intermediary stage.

Just like the ME series went through a radical change in ME2 and then had criticism leveled at it by some for yanking too many RPG elements, it sure looks like the devs paid attention to the feedback. In ME3, it seems that they're trying to establish a happier medium by adding more RPG elements back in as indicated in the E3 coverage. Just because some people find DA2 too radical/not to their tastes/whatever the issues is doesn't mean that there weren't some good things to be taken away from DA2 that can be applied to future games (or that they won't listen to constructive criticism).

[Agamo45]

You pretty much got it all right. Don't bother buying it.

[csfteeeer]

Babli wrote...
That part, I can agree with. But with Ray Muzyka talking about DA 2 being the right direction of the franchise, I doubt they learned their lesson.

......

and there goes all my hope....*Violin starts in the background*

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

....and I want to be bitter.

You need some Morri soothing. Oh wait, that could end up having the reverse effect. 

[Brockololly]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...
And Muzyka is basically a suit, as opposed to an actual dev who has been working on the DA games. If Legacy is any indication, the devs have been listening. I think DA2 was an experiment/intermediary stage.

But I don't think its out of the realm of possibility that Muzyka or Zeschuk and the "suits" gave the developers or leads an overall vision for where they wanted DA to go into the more action, ME style. Which was likely before DAO was even released and before they realized it would actually be successful.

[DarthCaine]

Let's see now:
- uninteresting characters (& horrible romances, although I liked Fenris)
- the boring main "plot" is basically 3 barely related short stories (with the Arishok being the only good thing)
- there's only about 5 areas in the whole game and the rest are copy paste
- fetch quests and boring sidequests
- crappy art style
- only a few armor models in the game (the rest copy paste, not even reskinned)
- crappy ending
- idiotic enemy waves
- crappy boring environments (if the goal was to add more color with the new art style, they failed horribly)

The only thing that actually saves this game is that its cinematic presentation is very well and I found the music better than DAO's, but still very generic (like all of Inon Zur's crap).

I don't want DAO2. ME2 for example was a huge improvement over ME1 (ME2>DAO>ME1). DA2 was just a rushed game meant to cash in on DAO's success. ME2's goal was to improve the game. DA2's goal was to cut corners to pop out a game in the shortest amount of time with the smallest budget possible.

DA2 wasn't about making it better than DAO, it was about making a quick buck off BioWare's reputation. DAO sold pretty good, but had a big budget and a very long development cycle, so the net balance isn't that good. And you can't have that with EA.

And I seriously don't believe Mike Laidlaw wanted to make the game this bad. EA gave him a small timeframe and small budget and he did the best he could with it (granted parts of the budget was spent on idiotic things like the new art style)

Modifié par DarthCaine, 10 août 2011 - 08:34 .

[erichtho]

Also a thing I've noticed: a reason for many eye-brow-frowning aspects of the game seems to be that DA2 ditched realism. As in realistic, believable psychology and reasoning (even for "meta"-characters as Leliana - though unlikely, she's still a character of a complicated, thus believable - or at least thoroughly enjoyable - human psyche).

DA:O was full of delightful and subtle irony that covered a serious platform-mechanic, an epic/dark story and many-faced characters, whilst DA2 deals with more primitive (might I say unrational/unintelligent) aspects of characters: anger, rivalry, macho/femininity, evil/progressive-good etc (plus the streamlined and "easy"=boring mechanic)

Modifié par erichtho, 10 août 2011 - 08:17 .

[Dragoonlordz]

It's not so much hate, while they hate 'aspects within the game' myself included; all those aspects add up to disappointment rather than hate with the overall product. Honestly though the ones who bash critics by saying "fear change", "didn't get a DAO2", "jilted girlfriends"... I just want to slap so hard their heads won't stop spinning for a week.

[Jamie_edmo]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

It's not so much hate, while they hate 'aspects within the game' myself included; all those aspects add up to disappointment rather than hate with the overall product. Honestly though the ones who bash critics by saying "fear change", "didn't get a DAO2", "jilted girlfriends"... I just want to slap so hard their heads won't stop spinning for a week.

Can't argue with that, its been said before but; how can you blame people for expecting DA:O2, I'm not saying a rehash or Origins 1.5, but something closer than DA2 is.

Modifié par Jamie_edmo, 10 août 2011 - 08:05 .

[AtreiyaN7]

Brockololly wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...
And Muzyka is basically a suit, as opposed to an actual dev who has been working on the DA games. If Legacy is any indication, the devs have been listening. I think DA2 was an experiment/intermediary stage.

But I don't think its out of the realm of possibility that Muzyka or Zeschuk and the "suits" gave the developers or leads an overall vision for where they wanted DA to go into the more action, ME style. Which was likely before DAO was even released and before they realized it would actually be successful.

I'm sure that they had input on the direction they want things to go, but ultimately, they're not the ones making the games or showing up here to listen to and respond to people on the forums. I have no doubt that Muzyka and Zeschuk give approval or nix things, but the devs are clearly the ones who do the actual work, the designing, etc. - within whatever guidelines they've been given. Since Muzyka and Zeschuk happen to be the founders of BW and have been here all these years from the days of everyone's much-loved Baldur's Gate and onward, I'm assuming that they had input on the direction that all their games have gone all this time.

No one was calling them flaming morons back then, but now that they want to try something different, people act like they're devils. Heck, I'm sure that when DA:O was being made, they had input on that as well. I'm guessing that since ME was popular and well-received, they likely found the cinematic approach to storytelling in the game to be more appealing and are trying to adapt what worked to their other games. Not every attempt will be fully successful, but it's their right to try. All I care is that they learn from the things people didn't like and try to incorporate elements that people want (a la ME3 as stated earlier).

I'm sure that they could, conceivably, come up with satisfactory compromises over things like allowing you to use armor while maintaining a unique appearance for companions, but that's only something we'll find out on future games.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 10 août 2011 - 09:38 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Filament wrote...

Babli wrote...

ipgd  wrote...

Maybe I'm the only one but I never wanted DA to go the way of Pokemon.

*sigh*

DraCZeQQ wrote...

people wanted to take everything whats good on Origins, polish it and then expand it with new stuff, new story etc. ... there was no reason to throw everything away and then overhaul it in such a short time like was done with DA2

That's a pretty spot-on description of the Pokemon formula.

And also of Starcraft.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

I do not hate the game, but I was pretty pissed off and disappointed at what I felt was sloppy writing and really childish, juvinile themes and gameplay. There were some definite improvements from origins, and the game had some good points, but as a whole, no, I do not think DA2 as it was produced and executed was the right decision at all. Bioware needs to really rexamine and think this over a bit.

[rak72]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

I do not hate the game, but I was pretty pissed off and disappointed at what I felt was sloppy writing and really childish, juvinile themes and gameplay. There were some definite improvements from origins, and the game had some good points, but as a whole, no, I do not think DA2 as it was produced and executed was the right decision at all. Bioware needs to really rexamine and think this over a bit.

Don't mind me Skadi, I'm just going from thread to thread and  ^thising what you have to say

[Morroian]

Mad Method wrote...

I only played the demo, but I've seen some LP and review material and a lot of griping, so I'm pretty confident about the following:

I stopped there, the game cannot be rated on the demo.

[rak72]

I had my suspicions after the demo, turns out they where all right.

[Morroian]

csfteeeer wrote...

Babli wrote...
That part, I can agree with. But with Ray Muzyka talking about DA 2 being the right direction of the franchise, I doubt they learned their lesson.

......

and there goes all my hope....*Violin starts in the background*

You liked Legacy didn't you, thats probably most indicative of the direction. DA2 as it would have been without the game being rushed out.

[TheRealJayDee]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Honestly though the ones who bash critics by saying "fear change", "didn't get a DAO2", "jilted girlfriends"... I just want to slap so hard their heads won't stop spinning for a week.

...oh yes!

[bEVEsthda]

Persephone wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

happy_daiz wrote...

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

Why do people keep making these SAME threads over and over and over...?

There must be a daily quota. 

Because it's still there. Like a growth of cancer.
And moderators habitually lock old threads that are bumped. In particular always those critical to DA2.

So you guys are comparing DAII to cancer now? This is just SO classy anf mature, ah, the haters really have arguments I cannot refute. Never mind me actually losing my mother and sister to REAL cancer, you callous.....*restrains herself*

Never mind the OP admitting to only having played the demo and quoting what he has heard/read about the full game. Yes, that too is a sign of great wisdom indeed.

And the Mods do not lock threads that are critical of DAII. They lock threads that violate the rules, both positive & negative.

Cut the pretentious drama.
I've lost two family members to cancer as well, and you trying to use it as some kind of entitlement and holier than thou angers me for real.

It's a figure of speech. Everybody knows that. And it's very apt in this case.
FYI, I was using it about the "hate". The hate is like a cancer. You can pretend it's not there and you can pretend everything is normal. But it isn't. It's always there. DA2-forums will never be happy together land.


P.S. Ok,  I'm not angry at you anymore, Persephone.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 10 août 2011 - 09:59 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Morroian wrote...

csfteeeer wrote...

Babli wrote...
That part, I can agree with. But with Ray Muzyka talking about DA 2 being the right direction of the franchise, I doubt they learned their lesson.

......

and there goes all my hope....*Violin starts in the background*

You liked Legacy didn't you, thats probably most indicative of the direction. DA2 as it would have been without the game being rushed out.

Thats not true, Legacy is a re-direction after DA2's response and not the direction it was heading prior to the response.

[Jamie_edmo]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Thats not true, Legacy is a re-direction after DA2's response and not the direction it was heading prior to the response.

Yano, I'm glad you mentioned that, it worries me that BW, shifted direction after DA2 came out and delayed Legacy to implement changes.

The two big things the said they implemented from feedback was; use of wave combat and re-used areas.

So what was Legacy going to be like b4 this, fighting parachuting darkspawn in the bone-pit cave, hopefully not.

[Dragoonlordz]

bEVEsthda wrote...
Cut the pretentious drama.
I've lost two family members to cancer as well, and you trying to use it as some kind of entitlement and holier than thou angers me for real.

It's a figure of speech. Everybody knows that. And it's very apt in this case.
FYI, I was using it about the "hate". The hate is like a cancer. You can pretend it's not there and you can pretend everything is normal. But it isn't. It's always there. DA2-forums will never be happy together land.

I got nothing against Pers but she tends to use be a bit dramatic on here when talking about DA2 and often resorts to belittling DAO in order to get her point across, slightly annoys me but she is free to do so. I do think she needs to stop comparing her situation (even though was sad in real life to happen, though happens to alot of people) in order to prop up DA2. Many times such as people who did not like All That Remains got the same level of attack or repsonse.

There has to be a line drawn between a fictional game no matter how close to reailty may come and the reality itself of life outside the game. I am sorry for her loss outside the game in real life as many have losty family to cancer myself included but I do think she needs to stop using it to attack people on here about the game in arguments. Like I said got nothing against Pers she seems ok to me but friendly advice is sometimes needed in all walks of life even on forums.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 10 août 2011 - 09:52 .