310 réponses à ce sujet

[Oopsieoops]

Gespenst wrote...

The dialogue wheel and voiced protagonist I liked. I've heard people say that it ruins their immersion and they don't like how the voice determines the character and so on but well... the fact is you're not playing you. You were never Aedan Cousland and you were certainly never Duran Aeducan. You're playing these characters. You're playing Garrett or Marian Hawke not you.

That's a common misconception, and one which annoys me greatly. While that's true to some people, the vast majority of people saying that do not want to play as themselves, but as a character that they were able to (as much as possible) freely define. The issue with VA is that it naturally transfers a large aspect (voice, intonation, etc) of their characters from the players' to the developers' hands. It really has absolutely nothing to do with projecting themselves onto anything.
There's a lot of contention nowadays as to what makes a game an RPG (and I don't want to enter in that discussion), but it at least originally it meant creating a character (usually deliberately different or even opposite to yourself) and then make decisions which were in character *with that creation*.

Modifié par Oopsieoops, 10 août 2011 - 11:52 .

[Weiser_Cain]

I'm not playing as me, but I'm usually playing as a character that's a lot like me.

[K_Tabris]

I loved both games. No complicated breakdown, I won't waste time with that. The story, gameplay and character relationships are reason enough.

[Out to Lunch]

Monica21 wrote...

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

Why do people keep making these SAME threads over and over and over...?

Honest answer? Because people loved Origins for specific reasons. I thought, "Awesome! I get a real RPG for a change!" And then everything was overhauled and not for the better in DA2. The second reason is that not everyone plays on release date. I just started playing a few days ago even though it's been out for six months. Expressions of disappointment are not limited to within a week or month of release.

DAO was a very basic, entry level, RPG designed to be easily accessible to people with little or no RPG experience. The majority of people polled on the DAO forums, as well as, elsewhere admitted they didn't role-play their character at all. They played themselves. Origins was a complete story that the writers lead us through, distracting/entertaining us with a lot of choices that had little or no impact on the game or cannon story. By acknowledging those choices at the end, everyone still felt they had accomplished something. It made it fun.

I think that is why people were disappointed with DA2. Not a lot of choices, with or without meaning. Most of those choices were not acknowledged anywhere in the game so it seemed pointless. Origins spoon fed a story that people liked-DA2 presented a default story that required 'in head' role-playing. People who can't or don't like doing that were left with the bland default story which they didn't like. I guess it boils down to Hawke not being heroic enough. I base that theory on the excessive number of threads and posts with people talking about how useless they felt their Hawke was in overall story. So gameplay preferences and expectations would be the main reason I see for all intense criticism.

Modifié par Out to Lunch, 11 août 2011 - 01:10 .

[Persephone]

bEVEsthda wrote...

Persephone wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

happy_daiz wrote...

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

Why do people keep making these SAME threads over and over and over...?

There must be a daily quota. 

Because it's still there. Like a growth of cancer.
And moderators habitually lock old threads that are bumped. In particular always those critical to DA2.

So you guys are comparing DAII to cancer now? This is just SO classy anf mature, ah, the haters really have arguments I cannot refute. Never mind me actually losing my mother and sister to REAL cancer, you callous.....*restrains herself*

Never mind the OP admitting to only having played the demo and quoting what he has heard/read about the full game. Yes, that too is a sign of great wisdom indeed.

And the Mods do not lock threads that are critical of DAII. They lock threads that violate the rules, both positive & negative.

I've lost two family members to cancer as well, and you trying to use it as some kind of entitlement and holier than thou angers me for real.

It's a figure of speech. Everybody knows that. And it's very apt in this case.
FYI, I was using it about the "hate". The hate is like a cancer. You can pretend it's not there and you can pretend everything is normal. But it isn't. It's always there. DA2-forums will never be happy together land.


P.S. Ok,  I'm not angry at you anymore, Persephone.

It's as much a "figure" of speech as using the word rape in a sentence like "OMG, I totally raped this game!". That angers ME for real, if you must know.

Guess what, I'm not happy about the hate either, even though I understand the criticism to a point. And why are DA2 forums not a happy place? Because the people posting in them make them so. Yes, including you and me....by having this argument.

Peace!

Modifié par Persephone, 11 août 2011 - 01:34 .

[Persephone]

happy_daiz wrote...

Filament wrote...

One of these days I'd like to see waves drop in with actual parachutes.

Now that is funny. 

Where can I pre-order?:O:O

[bEVEsthda]

Persephone wrote...

Peace!

Of course.

Peace, but I do want you to understand me right. I am one of the "haters" after all. The haters of DA2, I mean. As you should well know by now, anyway.
That said, I finished the game, and if I had truly, thoroughly "hated" the game as such, I wouldn't have succeeded with that.
But to me DA2 was a much different game from DA:O, and not in favor. And I'm absolutely not talking about either reused environments or falling waves. So just fixing things like that won't do for me. I didn't like "the new direction". And never will. And for me, much of my "heat" when it comes to my dislike for DA2, is fueled by the demise of the DA of DA:O. That DA2's version has replaced DA:O. I'm fine with expressed strong dislike for DA2. Though I suppose it must seem strange for those who didn't think there was so much difference between the games.

What I'm disturbed about is when the dislike for opposing views goes out over people. Or when dislike for the game goes out over the developers. This compulsive need/want to punish someone need to be restrained. Besides, it's completely unnecessary and fills no purpose. I also think it's self-reinforcing, a process that feeds on itself to grow stronger. Until it loses its footing in reality.

[TheMadCat]

Edit, wrong button.

Modifié par TheMadCat, 11 août 2011 - 04:02 .

[Realmzmaster]

I agree with bEVEsthda. I have no problem with someone disliking or liking the game. I have a problem when forum mates want to make it personal toward other forum mates and the developers. It is a video game. But the sheer amount of vitriol on both sides was disturbing. Each side was presenting opinion as fact.

I understand that each side is trying to shout down the other so the developers will hear them and go in be steered in a particular direction. It can be accomplished in a civil manner.

[TheMadCat]

I don't know how much pure hate actually surrounds DA2, there is certainly a lot of resentment and disappointment with DA2 though.

My biggest problem with DA2 isn't something that's really tangible (Though there were plenty of tangible issues with the game). Origins was hardly perfect, people who proclaim it one of the best RPG's ever or mark it as the best game in the past decade really are beyond my comprehension. It was a great, fun game but it had it's fair share of flaws and I
understand them looking and saying "we can do better than this". There was something Origins had though that I thought made it superior to it's competition, something that I've felt has always separated BioWare from the majority of the pack, something that felt missing from DA2. Origins had this incredible amount of detail put into every single aspect of the game and it gave the world, the story, the characters, the journey this incredible feel and you could feel the love and immense effort they put into that game. Almost everything looked and felt so fleshed out that it sucked you into the world and even though the focus was on your character it made you feel rather small and insignifcant.

For whatever reason, at least for myself, that feeling didn't translate over to DA2. It felt like they traded away substance and detail for flash and pazazz. The finely detailed world was replaced with rushed out sections crudley thrown together, epic and grand was replaced with quick and sexy. I'm not calling Origins flawless nor am I calling DA2 bad, but there is a stark difference between the feeling of two. Perhaps it's solely because Origins had a couple more years and several million more in spare change, perhaps the culture and leadership allowed for more during the development of Origins than in DA2. Perhaps it was lack of time and resources, perhaps it was lack of will, or perhaps it was a little of everything.

And again there are plenty of tangiable reasons for me to have issues with DA2, but nothing that felt like it was hurting the experience more than the actual experience. And I had my problems with Origins as well, the story and characters were rather trite, the flow of time and urgency was lacking, clunky combat, and other little things here and there. But to me Origins was like the movie/miniseries Lonesome Dove, the characters and the story were nothing overly special and at times it moved slow as hell, but there was just something to it that sucked you in, something crafted so finely that it felt so much more grand than it really was and made you feel more for the story and characters than you should have. DA2 was more like a Micheal Bay flick, something that leaned more towards style rather than substance, where instant gratification took precedence over detail and thought. Chances are you came out of it satisfied and enjoyed it, but it's not the same feeling you'd have after seeing The Godfather or Shawshank, and it's fair to leave wanting more then what you got. When you set the bar in the sky, falling short will create disappointment and even resentment.

[Iakus]

I don't hate DA2.  It actually had some pretty good things going for it.  Unfortunately, it did have some problems for me, particularly in the narrative.  A few points on the list hit it on the head for me:

Mage-templar struggle is poorly played out: All we see is crazy mages and crazy templars, so an intelligent discussion of systemic oppression is averted in favor of a bunch of crazies going at it instead. There's barely a clue about why it must be so bad to just be in the circle. Bethany even likes it there.

Narrative has issues with realism: a mage Hawke never gets much trouble as a mage, esp. as a blood mage; a champion and noble Hawke never performs any of a noble's duties; Meredith decides to leave Ander's fate to you even as she goes after the circle in revenge; etc.

Too many fakeouts with choices that should have tangible consequences but really dont.Too many cases where you're wondering "Why can't I just [x]?" and the answer is just because the story demands it.

There is no sense of a cohesive narrative. Stuff just seems to happen while you're there, some of it to you, and that's it.

Really lousy ending.

Didn't make the game awful.  But it did make it a pale shadow compared to DAO.  That may be another strike against it, it came on the heels of such a hugely popular game.

[Tiglatpilesar]

People are mowing the same lawn over and over, when they should really get over with it by now. DA2 is six month old; nothing will change it for worse or better. Claiming that these myriads of threads are to help the series develop in right direction is pretty much pointless. Argument about how DA2 sales are not matching DAO because Bioware changed game too much is double edged sword, not everyone who bought DAO was so happy with it, maybe many customers get quickly bored with it and lost interest with franchise, so actually the sales are not matching DAO because the changes were in fact too cosmetic ?
I didn’t like DAO that much, my grudge was simple, too much fighting ( my brain literally melted in Deep Roads) and after trying DA2 demo I found out that it will have even more fighting b/c Bioware were trying replicate ME2 formula : fight¬¬–dialogue–cutscene but while in ME2 it has a flow in DA2 is absolute tedium.
Anyway I think “community” is last thing Bioware devs should listen to, most vocal is group of persistent fanboys/girls and haters. Best thing that could be done for a DA series is to cut off devs from any contact with them. I wasn’t fan of Bioware forum moderation and some of Stanley Woo’s actions really bugged me, now I quite sympathetic to this guy having witnessed what’s going on DA2 forums. To keep pretending that this kind of “community” is important that “constructive criticism is important us”, “we listen to our fans” and to “feedback from community”. Omg it’s terrible job.

[ZeshinX]

Community is the first group they should listen to, and they are. Granted, calling it a challenge for them to sift through the raging vitriol to find the useful and constructive feedback is an understatement. Ultimately though, the community is who gives them money for their products (granted, the community here is mighty small compared to everyone that buys the game), which is what keeps them in business. A simplification of how it actually works, obviously, but I believe it to be sound reasoning.

I'm quite impressed with the current discussion going on between the community and the BW devs. It sounds promising for the future. Proof is ultimately in the pudding (i.e. DA3), so I remain cautiously optimistic for it.

[Dragoonlordz]

Tiglatpilesar wrote...

People are mowing the same lawn over and over, when they should really get over with it by now. DA2 is six month old; nothing will change it for worse or better. Claiming that these myriads of threads are to help the series develop in right direction is pretty much pointless. Argument about how DA2 sales are not matching DAO because Bioware changed game too much is double edged sword, not everyone who bought DAO was so happy with it, maybe many customers get quickly bored with it and lost interest with franchise, so actually the sales are not matching DAO because the changes were in fact too cosmetic ?
I didn’t like DAO that much, my grudge was simple, too much fighting ( my brain literally melted in Deep Roads) and after trying DA2 demo I found out that it will have even more fighting b/c Bioware were trying replicate ME2 formula : fight¬¬–dialogue–cutscene but while in ME2 it has a flow in DA2 is absolute tedium.
Anyway I think “community” is last thing Bioware devs should listen to, most vocal is group of persistent fanboys/girls and haters. Best thing that could be done for a DA series is to cut off devs from any contact with them. I wasn’t fan of Bioware forum moderation and some of Stanley Woo’s actions really bugged me, now I quite sympathetic to this guy having witnessed what’s going on DA2 forums. To keep pretending that this kind of “community” is important that “constructive criticism is important us”, “we listen to our fans” and to “feedback from community”. Omg it’s terrible job.

lol I have to ask.. Just have too... If didn't like DAO and didn't like DA2 because both had too much fighting then why spend time on the DA forums unless your here to try to ask Bioware to put less fighting in the following titles?

Also something to bare in mind when you create a thread and the thread asks "What do you hate about DA2?", count how many people say I hate DA2 because it's DA2 and will be lucky if even adds up to 1-3 out of 500. They list aspects within the game they hate but not the game itself, the game itself due to those aspects becomes dissapointing for most because it's a sum of all it's parts. With DA2 for most those aspects were so many that they added up to a dissapointment because the number of things they disliked outweighed / tipped the balance form one thing into another hence why you look in the CC thread or my own review the lists of things not liked vastly out number the things they did like = dissapointment / dissolution with regard to spending more money on the next one.

I hated aspects within the game so many it led to my own dissapointment with the product, this in itself put at risk the future investment of the next title because by going from a title DAO in this case which was in the right style to capture my attention /investment, the following one did the opposite now that put into question my investing in the next title. Thats the reailty of the situation for many people.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 11 août 2011 - 02:16 .

[Big RonG]

I played Origins thru twice (2 characters). Have just started II and I am reeling from the interface changes. It seems to make the game worse not better. Certainly the potion limits (time until you can use again) make it nearly impossible to play at the 'normal' level. I am going to go to 'easy' just to get through the first part. The 2 characters picked up on the road and 1 character in the original group die instantly in the first big fight. 50% loss before you even have a chance to input? That's retarded for sure. Further complaints later - hahaha.

[Monica21]

Out to Lunch wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
Honest answer? Because people loved Origins for specific reasons. I thought, "Awesome! I get a real RPG for a change!" And then everything was overhauled and not for the better in DA2. The second reason is that not everyone plays on release date. I just started playing a few days ago even though it's been out for six months. Expressions of disappointment are not limited to within a week or month of release.

DAO was a very basic, entry level, RPG designed to be easily accessible to people with little or no RPG experience. The majority of people polled on the DAO forums, as well as, elsewhere admitted they didn't role-play their character at all. They played themselves. Origins was a complete story that the writers lead us through, distracting/entertaining us with a lot of choices that had little or no impact on the game or canon story. By acknowledging those choices at the end, everyone still felt they had accomplished something. It made it fun.

An entry level RPG based on what, Oblivion? Because there I would disagree. I don't even bother calling Oblivion an RPG even though the developers slap that label onto it. An entry level RPG based on games like Planescape and FO1 and Baldur's Gate, then heck yes. No, there really wasn't a lot of choice in Origins but they handled the illusion of choice much better. 

I think that is why people were disappointed with DA2. Not a lot of choices, with or without meaning. Most of those choices were not acknowledged anywhere in the game so it seemed pointless. Origins spoon fed a story that people liked-DA2 presented a default story that required 'in head' role-playing. People who can't or don't like doing that were left with the bland default story which they didn't like. I guess it boils down to Hawke not being heroic enough. I base that theory on the excessive number of threads and posts with people talking about how useless they felt their Hawke was in overall story. So gameplay preferences and expectations would be the main reason I see for all intense criticism.

I actually do like the storyteller conceit here but I think it's executed poorly. I don't feel like I'm creating Varric's story. I feel like I'm a character in a story he's told a million times, exaggerations and all.

[Tiglatpilesar]

Dragoonlordz wrote...


lol I have to ask.. Just have too... If didn't like DAO and didn't like DA2 because both had too much fighting then why spend time on the DA forums unless your here to try to ask Bioware to put less fighting in the following titles?

For sure, one or twice, ok let's make it ten times if i have overblown idea of importance of my own words but not literarly hundreds times over a course of half of a year.

I see same people repaeting the very same things over and over again every few days with almost same words.
It's obsessive it doesn't make sense to listen to such feedback but make very sense to cut yourself off from it completly.

Modifié par Tiglatpilesar, 11 août 2011 - 03:08 .

[Addai]

Out to Lunch wrote...
I think that is why people were disappointed with DA2. Not a lot of choices, with or without meaning. Most of those choices were not acknowledged anywhere in the game so it seemed pointless. Origins spoon fed a story that people liked-DA2 presented a default story that required 'in head' role-playing. People who can't or don't like doing that were left with the bland default story which they didn't like. I guess it boils down to Hawke not being heroic enough. I base that theory on the excessive number of threads and posts with people talking about how useless they felt their Hawke was in overall story. So gameplay preferences and expectations would be the main reason I see for all intense criticism.

While in general I agree with you, I think the bolded garbles a bit.  In order to in-head roleplay (which I love to do- which is what made me spend far too many hours in Origins), you have to be drawn in to the story enough to want to put that much effort into it.  And for whatever reason, DA2 leaves me completely cold.  A lot of it is Hawke's ineptness, and the voiced protagonist does not make it easy to like her.  I've been replaying a bit lately, trying to get a Warden Carver for Legacy, and my god, I want to smack Hawke every time she opens her mouth.  That is not a character I'm going to spend excessive head time on.

However, this is not the sole reason for the derision of DA2.  I also don't excessively roleplay Mass Effect- I play it as a knockoff shooter and could care less about Shepard- but ME2 shows a much higher production value in almost every area.  It's even less of an RPG, but it looks like a game that was crafted with care.

[Anathemic]

Tiglatpilesar wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...


lol I have to ask.. Just have too... If didn't like DAO and didn't like DA2 because both had too much fighting then why spend time on the DA forums unless your here to try to ask Bioware to put less fighting in the following titles?

For sure, one or twice, ok let's make it ten times if i have overblown idea of importance of my own words but not literarly hundreds times over a course of half of a year.

I see same people repaeting the very same things over and over again every few days with almost same words.
It's obsessive it doesn't make sense to listen to such feedback but make very sense to cut yourself off from it completly.

Welcome to BSN, hope you enjoy your stay

[Complistic]

Because while it isn't a bad game, people expect a lot more from Bioware.

[nitefyre410]

Tiglatpilesar wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...


lol I have to ask.. Just have too... If didn't like DAO and didn't like DA2 because both had too much fighting then why spend time on the DA forums unless your here to try to ask Bioware to put less fighting in the following titles?

For sure, one or twice, ok let's make it ten times if i have overblown idea of importance of my own words but not literarly hundreds times over a course of half of a year.

I see same people repaeting the very same things over and over again every few days with almost same words.
It's obsessive it doesn't make sense to listen to such feedback but make very sense to cut yourself off from it completly.

  

but it is  rather ammusing to watch  play out though

[Jamie_edmo]

Anathemic wrote...

Tiglatpilesar wrote...

For sure, one or twice, ok let's make it ten times if i have overblown idea of importance of my own words but not literarly hundreds times over a course of half of a year.

I see same people repaeting the very same things over and over again every few days with almost same words.
It's obsessive it doesn't make sense to listen to such feedback but make very sense to cut yourself off from it completly.

Welcome to BSN, hope you enjoy your stay

Lol, good post, so true unfortunately 

[nwn_martin]

shouldnt da2 be rather named dragon effect? no connection to dao whatsoever + the mass effects (limiting) dialog wheel.

[erichtho]

The interesting thing about this game and the whole issue about Bioware's direction is that I feel the urge to come here daily and say the game is utter ****.

I've hold myself back though... no reason for unexplained anger (a just-in-case differentiation: for DA2 it is clearly NOT the case of anger without a lot of reason to it. But it can still be left "unexplained" and meaningless - thus very bad ).

Modifié par erichtho, 12 août 2011 - 12:54 .