127 réponses à ce sujet

[jasonsantanna]

Soahfreako wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Soahfreako wrote...

I destroyed it so no one would get indoctrinated by it and come back to bite me in the ass. But, seeing as how Cerberus can't keep their mits off it and with the preview of the next comic, it's obvious that no one could've handled the base let alone the Alliance. Who, as we all know, deny the existence of the Reapers.

Something tells me that the Alliance knows more about the Reapers than they are letting on.

I look back at Kenson's team and Keiji's grey box.

Kenson didn't know what she had till it had her indoctrinated, the grey box though is a good point. Though I'm positive Kasumi would've shared it with Shepard if it was something huge like that.

I think Greendragon brings up a good point , in another thread I can't recall which one , its an older one but it blows up the images of Kasumi's images she looks through from Keiji's greybox and one of those images are of a reaper which looks slightly different from the other reapers , but any way with Hackett sending the Kenson to study reaper tech , Anderson telling Shep when you visit him in ME2 that pcs rained all over the station also Humans all over C-sec , here is my theory: with all those things I stated it looks like a Area51 thing with the Alliance , meaning that they are fully aware of Reapers for 1, 2 I think they scooped up the pieces of Sovereign , 3 rebuilt him but don't yet have the ability to get the reaper up and going yet (powering it and control) 4 Kenson may have been out there originally looking for a power source for the Alliance reaper and came across , more than just an power . . . And trouble followed 5 just think about why would Hackett just send a team to investigate an asteroid, Hackett is part of the big brass in the Alliance and he knows of the reapers , and would not tell his fellow brass, I think the Alliance knows more than they are will , and as for Cerberus , they are like the Corsair that Jacob mentions,they just stopped working hand and hand with the Alliance , and probably have there own agenda

[Jeth Prime]

If they will study it, they should no how, without having to go nuts. That should be the first thing they try to figure out....

Generally, I don't think anyone who acknowledges the reapers are against studying their tech. But they've seen what happens when people try. At this point, it's safer not to.... But then, how will they figure out how to stave off being mentally screwed.

[didymos1120]

jasonsantanna wrote...

I think Greendragon brings up a good point , in another thread I can't recall which one , its an older one but it blows up the images of Kasumi's images she looks through from Keiji's greybox and one of those images are of a reaper which looks slightly different from the other reapers...

The reaper in question is identical to Sovereign.  The two textures used in that scene are called "sovereign1" and "sovereign3".  That doesn't necessarily mean it is Sovereign though, as they could have just been recycling.

[marshalleck]

didymos1120 wrote...

jasonsantanna wrote...

I think Greendragon brings up a good point , in another thread I can't recall which one , its an older one but it blows up the images of Kasumi's images she looks through from Keiji's greybox and one of those images are of a reaper which looks slightly different from the other reapers...

The reaper in question is identical to Sovereign.  The two textures used in that scene are called "sovereign1" and "sovereign3".  That doesn't necessarily mean it is Sovereign though, as they could have just been recycling.

recycling from what? those images aren't used anywhere else to my knowledge

[Loup Blanc]

Totally disagree with OP. Of course I want to learn more about the Reapers, their origins and all... but in no way should everything be explained and demystified. Always keep a part of mystery. Always. The less you know about your enemy, the scarier and more interesting it usually is.

[Inverness Moon]

 On the matter of the greybox.
I know some people think the Alliance's rapid rise to power is a bit unrealistic, perhaps it had help? 

Edit: Also, BioWare completely botched the reactions of your team to the collector base decision. When you're making the choice, some of them agree with saving it, and others disagree. However, after you make the decision and talk to them on the ship, all of them agree with blowing it up, and all of them have issues if you didn't. That is complete bull****. I don't know who wrote that dialogue, but they did a terrible job. As far as I'm concerned, what they say on the base is the more credible representation of how they feel about it.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 10 août 2011 - 10:07 .

[marshalleck]

Inverness Moon wrote...

 On the matter of the greybox.
I know some people think the Alliance's rapid rise to power is a bit unrealistic, perhaps it had help? 

Help how? Did the Reapers teach Ambassador Goyle to be a perceptive and shrewd diplomat? Did they help humans quickly integrate and adapt to the galactic culture and economy? 

Edit: Also, BioWare completely botched the reactions of your team to the collector base decision. When you're making the choice, some of them agree with saving it, and others disagree. However, after you make the decision and talk to them on the ship, all of them agree with blowing it up, and all of them have issues if you didn't. That is complete bull****. I don't know who wrote that dialogue, but they did a terrible job. As far as I'm concerned, what they say on the base is the more credible representation of how they feel about it.

Writers be damned, I save the base every time.

Modifié par marshalleck, 10 août 2011 - 10:09 .

[Ieldra]

@In Exile:
I have put some work into following the research of social psychology into the workings of human morality. I am also very much aware that the question of an objective moral reality is not considered settled by moral philosophy. But I place not much importance in arguments not based on observation. There isn't even a definition of what is good that isn't controversial, and it's all because people think their value systems have an objective reality. If that's not evidence enough for you to doubt the whole concept, then I don't know what would do it. Again, I'm not looking for 100% infallible certainty. Overwhelming plausibility is quite enough for me. I do not think I can be more certain than that of anything but the statement "something exists". Outside of mathematics, anyway.

If I argue with the plausible against the baseless, then no, I am not enshrining a belief. I am making a claim based on reasonable expectations. Arguing against that with the expectation of certainty is destructive sophistry.

[Inverness Moon]

marshalleck wrote...

Help how? Did the Reapers teach Ambassador Goyle to be a perceptive and shrewd diplomat? Did they help humans quickly integrate and adapt to the galactic culture and economy? 

I dunno, I'll leave that up to other people to figure out. I don't much care for it.

What the greybox does seem to indicate is that there is some prior knowledge of Sovereign within the Alliance. Perhaps they knew about it ahead of time and were simply planning to take it for themselves and study it to gain a technological advantage.

[didymos1120]

marshalleck wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

jasonsantanna wrote...

I think Greendragon brings up a good point , in another thread I can't recall which one , its an older one but it blows up the images of Kasumi's images she looks through from Keiji's greybox and one of those images are of a reaper which looks slightly different from the other reapers...

The reaper in question is identical to Sovereign.  The two textures used in that scene are called "sovereign1" and "sovereign3".  That doesn't necessarily mean it is Sovereign though, as they could have just been recycling.

recycling from what? those images aren't used anywhere else to my knowledge

The Sovereign model?  The textures (all of them, including the Kasumi/Keiji ones) are obviously made from in-game captures.  They likely just put the Sovvy model in an all-black space and picked a couple angles to use.

Modifié par didymos1120, 10 août 2011 - 10:12 .

[marshalleck]

didymos1120 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

jasonsantanna wrote...

I think Greendragon brings up a good point , in another thread I can't recall which one , its an older one but it blows up the images of Kasumi's images she looks through from Keiji's greybox and one of those images are of a reaper which looks slightly different from the other reapers...

The reaper in question is identical to Sovereign.  The two textures used in that scene are called "sovereign1" and "sovereign3".  That doesn't necessarily mean it is Sovereign though, as they could have just been recycling.

recycling from what? those images aren't used anywhere else to my knowledge

The Sovereign model?  The textures (all of them, including the Kasumi/Keiji) ones are obviously made from captures of in-game images.  They likely just put the Sovvy model in an all-black space and picked a couple angles to use.

Err, yes. Obviously they are renders. I thought you were talking about the assets themselves being recycled, not Sovereign's model.

[Saaziel]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Edit: Also, BioWare completely botched the reactions of your team to the collector base decision. When you're making the choice, some of them agree with saving it, and others disagree. However, after you make the decision and talk to them on the ship, all of them agree with blowing it up, and all of them have issues if you didn't. That is complete bull****. I don't know who wrote that dialogue, but they did a terrible job. As far as I'm concerned, what they say on the base is the more credible representation of how they feel about it.

They probably didn't anticipate that people would be gullible to the point of giving the base to T.I.M. So they figured the "Correct/Paragon" dialogue response of NPC was sufficient enough.

Note: Since its the internet , and things can get misinterpreted , the above statement is meant as Tongue-in-Cheek . Also , this is borderline off topic, we should try and avoid this point and focus solely on the Mystification/Cult interpretation of Reapers . I think there is enough CB discussions as it is.

Modifié par Saaziel, 10 août 2011 - 10:24 .

[Ieldra]

Jeth Prime wrote...
If they will study it, they should no how, without having to go nuts. That should be the first thing they try to figure out....

Generally, I don't think anyone who acknowledges the reapers are against studying their tech. But they've seen what happens when people try. At this point, it's safer not to.... But then, how will they figure out how to stave off being mentally screwed.

The interesting thing is they already made inroads on understanding of indoctrination in ME1. Apparently it is based on a combination of radiation and nanites (the latter from Retribution). So if they know some of the components, they should be able to create something that protects you from it. It may not be feasible as a ship defense, but it should be enough to study the stuff more safely, even if it's the equivalent of a ten ton lead wall.

So I think it's time to show us these things can be understood at least in part, instead of making people artificially stupid around them just to create yet another disaster and try to bring home the message that "this is eeeeeeevil". That doesn't work any more. Setting up camp in the derelict Reaper was incredibly stupid.

[Seboist]

marshalleck wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

 On the matter of the greybox.
I know some people think the Alliance's rapid rise to power is a bit unrealistic, perhaps it had help? 

Help how? Did the Reapers teach Ambassador Goyle to be a perceptive and shrewd diplomat? Did they help humans quickly integrate and adapt to the galactic culture and economy? 

Edit: Also, BioWare completely botched the reactions of your team to the collector base decision. When you're making the choice, some of them agree with saving it, and others disagree. However, after you make the decision and talk to them on the ship, all of them agree with blowing it up, and all of them have issues if you didn't. That is complete bull****. I don't know who wrote that dialogue, but they did a terrible job. As far as I'm concerned, what they say on the base is the more credible representation of how they feel about it.

Writers be damned, I save the base every time.

I do too, I won't let fear make me sacrifice the soul of my species by destroying such valuable tech and information.

[marshalleck]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Jeth Prime wrote...
If they will study it, they should no how, without having to go nuts. That should be the first thing they try to figure out....

Generally, I don't think anyone who acknowledges the reapers are against studying their tech. But they've seen what happens when people try. At this point, it's safer not to.... But then, how will they figure out how to stave off being mentally screwed.

The interesting thing is they already made inroads on understanding of indoctrination in ME1. Apparently it is based on a combination of radiation and nanites (the latter from Retribution). So if they know some of the components, they should be able to create something that protects you from it. It may not be feasible as a ship defense, but it should be enough to study the stuff more safely, even if it's the equivalent of a ten ton lead wall.

So I think it's time to show us these things can be understood at least in part, instead of making people artificially stupid around them just to create yet another disaster and try to bring home the message that "this is eeeeeeevil". That doesn't work any more. Setting up camp in the derelict Reaper was incredibly stupid.

What I'm curious about is how indoctrination will function if the Reapers are gone. In Retribution we got Grayson's first person perspective of what it's like to be a Reaper avatar, like Saren. We know the Reapers communicate directly within the subject's mind and take control of the body. But if the Reapers are gone, they won't communicate and obviously they won't take control of anything. So is indoctrination only a danger as long as there are Reapers to exploit it, or is it fundamentally different somehow from being an avatar, in which no input from Reapers themselves is required?

[Mister Mida]

marshalleck wrote...

What I'm curious about is how indoctrination will function if the Reapers are gone. In Retribution we got Grayson's first person perspective of what it's like to be a Reaper avatar, like Saren. We know the Reapers communicate directly within the subject's mind and take control of the body. But if the Reapers are gone, they won't communicate and obviously they won't take control of anything. So is indoctrination only a danger as long as there are Reapers to exploit it, or is it fundamentally different somehow from being an avatar, in which no input from Reapers themselves is required?

Vigil stated that when the Reapers aren't around, the indoctrinated just die because they don't know what to do. And I don't think that Grayson's indoctrination is the same as the usual way of indoctrination. Grayson was implanted with Reaper tech to be indoctrinated, the STG captives on Virmire weren't.

[In Exile]

Ieldra2 wrote...
I have put some work into following the research of social psychology into the workings of human morality.

Cross-cultural or no? I've actually done research in moral reasoning in social psychology (though my own work centered around moral blame & legal reasoning).

But I place not much importance in arguments not based on observation.

Look, personally, I agree with you. Thinking really hard doesn't make reality, and we shouldn't take thinking really hard seriously without evidence. 

If we want to talk about it practically, then I think that if we have a technology whose major (or entire) uses are all immoral, the tool itself is immoral. It may well be neccesary, but that doesn't make it morally neutral. That's also my take on reaper tech. We might need to use reaper tech; but that doesn't make it morally neutral, that just means the situation is desperate enough that survival trumps principle. 

This is my view on (for example) indoctrination. It just isn't morally neutral. It's all about one thing: mind control. If we could do it, then we're doing something immoral, even if it were useful. 

There isn't even a definition of what is good that isn't controversial, and it's all because people think their value systems have an objective reality. If that's not evidence enough for you to doubt the whole concept, then I don't know what would do it.

The real problem, though, is that if that's our standard, then it extends to actual observation too. Not the obvious "is this a red ball?" type questions, but the hard questions in physics, chemistry and biology where we deal with non-observable entities. 

Again, I'm not looking for 100% infallible certainty. Overwhelming plausibility is quite enough for me. I do not think I can be more certain than that of anything but the statement "something exists". Outside of mathematics, anyway.

Neither am I. I just don't think the argument that technology is morally neutral actually stands up well on empirical ground.

If I argue with the plausible against the baseless, then no, I am not enshrining a belief. I am making a claim based on reasonable expectations. Arguing against that with the expectation of certainty is destructive sophistry.

Absolutely. It's also logical, which is why logic is useless. 

[marshalleck]

Mister Mida wrote...

Vigil stated that when the Reapers aren't around, the indoctrinated just die because they don't know what to do. And I don't think that Grayson's indoctrination is the same as the usual way of indoctrination. Grayson was implanted with Reaper tech to be indoctrinated, the STG captives on Virmire weren't.

I know that, that's why I called him an avatar like Saren who was also implanted.

Modifié par marshalleck, 10 août 2011 - 10:37 .

[In Exile]

Ieldra2 wrote...
The interesting thing is they already made inroads on understanding of indoctrination in ME1. Apparently it is based on a combination of radiation and nanites (the latter from Retribution). So if they know some of the components, they should be able to create something that protects you from it.

Maybe we could protect ourselves from the radiation (we have that tech already), but what makes you think we could protect ourselves against nanites?

It may not be feasible as a ship defense, but it should be enough to study the stuff more safely, even if it's the equivalent of a ten ton lead wall.

Only if a counter-measure is possible in principle.

So I think it's time to show us these things can be understood at least in part, instead of making people artificially stupid around them just to create yet another disaster and try to bring home the message that "this is eeeeeeevil". That doesn't work any more. Setting up camp in the derelict Reaper was incredibly stupid.

Let's say they made camp far away from the derelict Reaper. How does that change things? Maybe they just end up bringing the nanites with them, which can reproduce on their own, so they wind up indoctrinating even larger populations. And how would that reduce the exposure to the indoctrination signal? 

[Mister Mida]

marshalleck wrote...

Mister Mida wrote...

Vigil stated that when the Reapers aren't around, the indoctrinated just die because they don't know what to do. And I don't think that Grayson's indoctrination is the same as the usual way of indoctrination. Grayson was implanted with Reaper tech to be indoctrinated, the STG captives on Virmire weren't.

I know that, that's why I called him an avatar like Saren who was also implanted.

I don't think there's that much of a difference since implanted Reaper tech is probably not good for the brain and/or mind of its host.

[Keatons]

didymos1120 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

jasonsantanna wrote...

I think Greendragon brings up a good point , in another thread I can't recall which one , its an older one but it blows up the images of Kasumi's images she looks through from Keiji's greybox and one of those images are of a reaper which looks slightly different from the other reapers...

The reaper in question is identical to Sovereign.  The two textures used in that scene are called "sovereign1" and "sovereign3".  That doesn't necessarily mean it is Sovereign though, as they could have just been recycling.

recycling from what? those images aren't used anywhere else to my knowledge

The Sovereign model?  The textures (all of them, including the Kasumi/Keiji ones) are obviously made from in-game captures.  They likely just put the Sovvy model in an all-black space and picked a couple angles to use.

Unless my memory has gone bad, Didn't 1) The turians take Sovereigns gun for study to make the Thanix? and 2) Between the explosion, rushed clean-up, and the keepers hauling pieces away to recycle and use to repair the Citadel, wasn't there less than half of Sovereign left for study? Hard to reconstruct something you've only seen the outside of when you don't even have half of it to begin with.

[Meshaber]

In Exile wrote...

Meshaber wrote...
Also, @exile: There is no such thing as a delusion of morally neutral technology. All technology is morally neutral, the end.

I could reply to this in lots of ways, but I'm going to go with the most fun one:

Some set of Reaper technology melts people alive, and they scraem and beg in pain for it to stop. How is this technology (just the melting them down one) morally neutral? 

I could reply to this in lots of ways, but I'm going to go with the most fun one:

The same set of reaper technology is melting down a homicidal, depressed krogan who wants nothing more than to end his miserable existance and also happens to have a neural disorder causing him to feel like he is undergoing a massage before his brain finally collapses.

Oh, FAWK.

[didymos1120]

Inverness Moon wrote...

 However, after you make the decision and talk to them on the ship, all of them agree with blowing it up, and all of them have issues if you didn't.

Actually, I think the problem was having them support it so unhesitatingly in the first place, given that you were handing it to TIM and most of the supporters were non-human. And their reasons for disliking that outcome also fit with things they'd said previously:  Mordin despised what was done to the Collectors, had dealt first hand with one of their bioweapons, has no reason to trust Cerberus at all and was very conflicted about keeping even the preliminary genophage research.  Grunt just plain doesn't respect TIM's from-the-shadows way of doing things, and knows their attitudes towards non-humans perfectly well. Garrus has his history with mad-science maven Dr. Saleon and also has little trust in TIM or Cerberus. Lastly, Legion was quite clear that the geth feel just grabbing technology from other sources blinds you to other viable, and possibly better, paths, and is from the faction of the geth who refused to accept the offer of Reaper tech even though it would have given them exactly what they wanted.  The only one it made sense for, really, was Zaeed.

[didymos1120]

Keatons wrote...

Unless my memory has gone bad, Didn't 1) The turians take Sovereigns gun for study to make the Thanix? and 2) Between the explosion, rushed clean-up, and the keepers hauling pieces away to recycle and use to repair the Citadel, wasn't there less than half of Sovereign left for study? Hard to reconstruct something you've only seen the outside of when you don't even have half of it to begin with.

Dude, I'm talking about the developers, not the Alliance.

[Inverness Moon]

Saaziel wrote...

They probably didn't anticipate that people would be gullible to the point of giving the base to T.I.M. So they figured the "Correct/Paragon" dialogue response of NPC was sufficient enough.

Note: Since its the internet , and things can get misinterpreted , the above statement is meant as Tongue-in-Cheek . Also , this is borderline off topic, we should try and avoid this point and focus solely on the Mystification/Cult interpretation of Reapers . I think there is enough CB discussions as it is.

I'm glad you added that note, I was about to go nuclear. :innocent:

But anyhow, I doubt BioWare added that decision without the intent to make it mean something significant. I just think that different writers handled each part and that whoever wrote the dialogue for their responses on the ship is biased towards the Paragon side.