155 réponses à ce sujet

[Dezhem]

Anyone share my view that Duncan is probably the most likeable character ever? No matter what sort of character I'm playing, be it xenophobic insane dwarf, blood mage, 'Paladin', manic Elf or any combination really; I just can't bring myself to choose the 'disrespectful' option.

He's honourable, a great fighter, willing to go to great lengths to protect the world, well read and really quite charismatic. Race, colour, station; He doesn't care about any of those things.

I'd love for some DLC taking us through Duncans' earlier years!

[marshalleck]

I didn't really connect with him at all.

[bjdbwea]

I disagree. He's well done as a character, but likeable? This is the non-spoiler forum, so I'll just say I disagree with a certain action he made, and still find it disturbing and unnecessary. Maybe if this topic gets moved we can discuss this further.

[Dezhem]

Ick, thought I stuck this in the Spoilers forum.



Still, I'm surprised to see that others don't feel the same way. Considering the context all his actions are understandable.

[Zenthar Aseth]

I agree with the OP. And Bjd, there's already a lot of discussion about that. But the conclusion 1) He acted in self defense(he blocked first.. so he didn't strke first) and 2) the Warden in charge of the Joining has to kill the recruit immediately who draws his weapon.. that is a rule. So if anything, Duncan was being merciful

Modifié par Zenthar Aseth, 21 novembre 2009 - 02:42 .

[Darpaek]

Really? Who says it's a rule? The guy who conscripted you?



Short of a late game character (no spoilers) we have absolutely no impartial knowledge on the behaviors of the Wardens.



Maybe the Joining's only secret in Ferelden because the Wardens are such minor players in the country? Maybe it's only forced during a Blight under the Rite of Conscription - otherwise, it is a known hazard (and, therefore, a real sacrifice on the part of the Joiner).



Frankly, an organization that misleads and then imposes a death sentence upon all new members (be it immediate or a few years down the road) does not create a recipe for either longevity or secrecy. I have to imagine that in a country like the Anderfels knowledge of the Joining is common because there are just so many GWs and there have to have been at least a few individuals that survive the Joining that are openly pissed off, or at least, resentful and get drunk in a tavern one day. Compare this to the secrecy of the Magi: the Harrowing being a secret makes sense - they spend their entire lives locked in a tower with the threat of imminent Templar death. Such a secret from the masses would be possible. A GW doesn't live that kind of life.



That being said, other than the Human Noble origin (and perhaps the Magi origin if you talk to Irving), I haven't seen a valid in-game reason for my characters to be a jerk to Duncan before the Joining. On my first playthru (a Human Noble), my character was completely pissed off at Duncan and was openly disrespectful. His opinion of Duncan dropped even lower during the Joining (I would have liked to ability to discuss this more with Alistair - who my first PC really liked).



But - maybe this is metagaming - I've never been able to shake the feeling that Duncan was full of **** about all the secrecy and was just using us to get recruits (especially with the "Will Do Anything To Win" ethic of the GWs).

[Zahnfleisch]

Duncan is the ****, seriously. He's frickin' Aragorn and Chuck Norris in one person.

I think BW has done a great job designing him.

His appaerance is fitting (got to have that armor!) and he seems noble and generous though he has no mercy for those who stand in his way. Men (women)  of his kind are needed during the Blight to guide Ferelden to victory.

His decision  at the joining was right. There was no turning back...Jori knew.

[Zenthar Aseth]

Apparently there is a Codex entry on it.

And Darpaek... the recruits were told SEVERAL TIMES that the Joining is dangerous, possibly lethal.
Did you know that all humans have a death sentence? What the Warden's give is really no different, possible to live 30+ years after the Joining is a very good deal..

And what did the recruits expect when wanting to join the Grey Wardens? It's an that fights monstrous Darkspawn, not a pre-school...

Zahnfleisch wrote...

His decision  at the joining was right. There was no turning back...Jori knew. 

Not only that, Jori attacked Duncan first...

Modifié par Zenthar Aseth, 21 novembre 2009 - 03:09 .

[Mnemnosyne]

This really aught to be moved to the spoiler forum, but, since people have already gone on with the spoilers...



The way the Joining was conducted was ridiculous. See the stuff given to one guy, watch him die horribly in front of you, then Duncan turns and goes 'your turn'. It was clearly written that way in order to increase the dramatic tension, and specifically to give Duncan cause to kill Jory. Clearly the reasonable way to perform the joining would be to have three cups and have everyone drink at the same time.

[Darpaek]

Sorry to rag on your pixel boytoy Zenthar... LOL



And the way they are told that it's dangerous, possibly lethal, it creates an image in the mind of the person (particularly the type of person that would be a GW recruit) that it's an enemy that can be fought and not a biological quirk of whether or not you can survive poisoning. Especially when you're presented with a "kill darkspawn and fetch"-type mission at the beginning of the Joining. Honestly, on my first playthru, I thought the blood would be used to summon darkspawn for us to fight in some sort of crazy gauntlet.



And, you know what? My Human Noble was going to live MUCH past the age of 50 ****ing scullery maids and leading overwhelming patrols of guards against lone bandits in the exile of some friendly Bannorn.

[Zenthar Aseth]

Koyasha wrote...

This really aught to be moved to the spoiler forum, but, since people have already gone on with the spoilers...

The way the Joining was conducted was ridiculous. See the stuff given to one guy, watch him die horribly in front of you, then Duncan turns and goes 'your turn'. It was clearly written that way in order to increase the dramatic tension, and specifically to give Duncan cause to kill Jory. Clearly the reasonable way to perform the joining would be to have three cups and have everyone drink at the same time.

Why? Again, it's not pre-school.. if you're too much of a coward to go forward after someone dies, you're just unnecessary baggage

Modifié par Zenthar Aseth, 21 novembre 2009 - 03:19 .

[Zahnfleisch]

Of course this is a dramatic measure. And its very well done.
It's much more entertaining that way and that's what gaming is about, isnt it?

I get your point though, its not quite reasonable. Maybe this is part of the joining to be mentally strong enough to watch other apprentices dying in front of you.

Maybe they only have one cup....

Modifié par Zahnfleisch, 21 novembre 2009 - 03:20 .

[shreddog]

Omg change the topic title to Spoilers Warning. I almost ruined my 5th joining

[Zenthar Aseth]

Zahnfleisch wrote...
 Maybe this is part of the joining to be mentally strong enough to watch other apprentices dying in front of you. 

Exactly..

Maybe they only have one cup....

That works as well..

[marshalleck]

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

Why? Again, it's not pre-school.. if you're too much of a coward to go forward after someone dies, you're just unnecessary baggage

An excellent point. If you can't drink from a goblet, how can you be trusted with the Grey Warden's ultimate mission and purpose?

[marshalleck]

Zahnfleisch wrote...

Maybe they only have one cup....

Two apprentices, one cup!

:/

[Mnemnosyne]

marshalleck wrote...

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

Why? Again, it's not pre-school.. if you're too much of a coward to go forward after someone dies, you're just unnecessary baggage

An excellent point. If you can't drink from a goblet, how can you be trusted with the Grey Warden's ultimate mission and purpose?

I disagree.  There's not much about the Grey Wardens' mission that requires throwing up your hands and putting everything on pure chance, which is what drinking the darkspawn blood consists of.  There's nothing you can do to affect the outcome - you'll either die or you won't.  That's hardly a test of character, it's a test of whether you're willing to blindly gamble with your life.  According to the story, it's necessary for some reason (I haven't gotten to that part yet if they explain why, so please don't tell me) but there's no logical reason to make it more difficult than it already is for people.  You're told that there's a chance you'll die from drinking it, you do not need to see someone die horribly in front of you before getting your turn.  Whether or not you're willing to drink it in the first place is more than enough of a 'test of character' if one is appropriate.

It's written that way for entirely dramatic purposes, and I seriously doubt much, if any, thought was given to how reasonable it may or may not be from an in-character perspective to do it one at a time.

Modifié par Koyasha, 21 novembre 2009 - 03:35 .

[marshalleck]

So just to be clear, you haven't completed the game yet? Don't worry, I'll be careful to not spoil anything, but I think once you've completely finished your first play through of the game, Duncan's actions will make more sense.

[Zenthar Aseth]

Koyasha wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

Why? Again, it's not pre-school.. if you're too much of a coward to go forward after someone dies, you're just unnecessary baggage

An excellent point. If you can't drink from a goblet, how can you be trusted with the Grey Warden's ultimate mission and purpose?

I disagree.  There's not much about the Grey Wardens' mission that requires throwing up your hands and putting everything on pure chance, which is what drinking the darkspawn blood consists of.  There's nothing you can do to affect the outcome - you'll either die or you won't.  That's hardly a test of character, it's a test of whether you're willing to blindly gamble with your life.  According to the story, it's necessary for some reason (I haven't gotten to that part yet if they explain why, so please don't tell me) but there's no logical reason to make it more difficult than it already is for people.  You're told that there's a chance you'll die from drinking it, you do not need to see someone die horribly in front of you before getting your turn.  Whether or not you're willing to drink it in the first place is more than enough of a 'test of character' if one is appropriate.

It's written that way for entirely dramatic purposes, and I seriously doubt much, if any, thought was given to how reasonable it may or may not be from an in-character perspective to do it one at a time.

Sometimes you just need to leave it all on luck. It's a test of character. If you are not willing to accept the chance of death there, you are not strong enough mentally.

[J.O.G]

It works fine for voluntary recruits but not for conscripts.

It is one thing to put a weapon in someones hand and make him defend his homeland against an invading army, even if he is too cowardish to do so.

It's another thing to abduct someone, drag him in a warzone, poison him and say: "congrats for surviving, now you are ready to join our elite unit."

Modifié par J.O.G, 21 novembre 2009 - 03:43 .

[Zenthar Aseth]

But has anyone ever been forced into the Grey Wardens? I don't remember any mention of such in the game, so..

[Mnemnosyne]

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

Sometimes you just need to leave it all on luck. It's a test of character. If you are not willing to accept the chance of death there, you are not strong enough mentally.

Yes, this is true, but the issue I'm saying is unreasonable is the manner in which it's done, where you're told to drink immediately after seeing someone die an agonizing death.

Being willing to accept the chance of death is mostly reasonable, even if you have no control over whether or not you die.  But being demanded to do it right after witnessing someone die in agony, especially without having any clear understanding of how this is going to benefit anyone, is a pretty extreme thing to demand of a recruit.

[marshalleck]

Well, again, it ties into who and what Wardens are, and their purpose. I can't say more than that without spoilers.

[J.O.G]

Actually, the Grey Wardens were expelled from Ferelden for using the Right of Conscription too often and for political reasons. (At least that was the official explanation)

Also my human rogue was dragged away by Duncan, leaving her parents back to die. This may sound unreasonable, but grief works like that.

Modifié par J.O.G, 21 novembre 2009 - 03:52 .

[Zenthar Aseth]

Koyasha wrote...

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

Sometimes you just need to leave it all on luck. It's a test of character. If you are not willing to accept the chance of death there, you are not strong enough mentally.

Yes, this is true, but the issue I'm saying is unreasonable is the manner in which it's done, where you're told to drink immediately after seeing someone die an agonizing death.

Being willing to accept the chance of death is mostly reasonable, even if you have no control over whether or not you die.  But being demanded to do it right after witnessing someone die in agony, especially without having any clear understanding of how this is going to benefit anyone, is a pretty extreme thing to demand of a recruit.

I disagree. The Grey Warden recruits aren't fresh, 17 year old army recruits.. they've been chosen to join an elite unit for their skill and they weren't forced..

After the Joining, they'll be full Wardens. So even before it they should possess tremendous mental fortitude.. or if they do not, they're not fit to be a Warden.