Nods. Cailan's a moron. For awhile there I thought maybe he was smarter than Loghain thought . . . but nah. I mean the boy is willing to wait for the Orlesians to show up but not his own Uncle's forces? That's some serious vanity without any military sense. He's just as bad as Loghain. If he was willing to bring in the Orlesians he should've been responsible and brought in Redcliffe's troops. In fact . . . now I'm really steamed (as steamed as I can get over a make believe game) because Cailan has no problem pulling all the troops out of Highever but Maker forbid he bother Redcliffe for troops.
But back to Loghain - if Loghain knew they were going to lose, and he wouldn't use the Orlesians, and the King wouldn't use Redcliffe's troops . . . huh. I guess Loghain did the right thing and overthrew the little twerp. He knew Cailan was going to screw everything up. His only options were to overthrow Cailan covertly (as he did) or overthrow him by civil war. Simply refusing to fight would've been open treason.
But see . . . then I get back to thinking about the plot point where Loghain is tryng to convince Cailan to hold off on the battle or at least not fight on the front lines. We know from both men's guards they'd been arguing about it for days. We talk to Loghain and he says to pray that Cailan is amenable to wisdom. We see the two argue right in front of our eyes. What was Loghain going to do if Cailan agreed not to fight on the front lines but insisted the battle proceed? Would he still have turned and walked away leaving the Wardens and Highever troops and ash Warriors to die? Now we are back to treason.
Mind boggling.
Duncan - Most likeable character in a game?
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Dezhem
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#102
Posté 23 mai 2010 - 02:39
Addai
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Cailan is not willing to wait for the Orlesians, either. Duncan tells you that if you ask him what he wants the king to do.
#103
Posté 23 mai 2010 - 02:43
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Yeah, Cailan's just trying to force Loghain to give in because he knows that if the only options are Orlesians or fighting with what they've got he'll always go for the latter. And I thought the reason he didn't want Eamon there wasn't vanity so much as his argument with him about Anora. We don't know if they were on speaking terms in the year between the last time Eamon brought it up and Ostagar but if Cailan and Loghain are already fighting about her and Eamon just sent a letter saying he still wanted her gone then that was just an explosive situation and not what they needed when trying to stop a potential Blight in its tracks.
#104
Posté 23 mai 2010 - 02:57
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Gr4ntus wrote...
Riordan is my hero.
Oh Maker no. He may well be one of the stupidest characters in the game.
"Oh lookie lookie, a giant flying dragon:O! Oooooh, maybe if I jump on its back mid-flight, I can kill it! I mean, theres no possible way it could shake me off or anything, nope, no way..."
#105
Posté 23 mai 2010 - 03:01
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Based on what David Gaider has said, and what Loghain says once you recruit him, I'd say that the only crime he wasn't guilty of was setting up Cailan to die. He did leave Cailan on the field when he might have been able to rescue him, but he didn't want Cailan on the front lines in the first place. He was planning to get Cailan under control and stop him from handing the country back to the Orlesians, maybe even overthrow him, but he didn't (I think) plan to kill him. Not that way, anyway. Leaving him to die may have been a bad call, a good call, or just a choice to be rid of the troublesome boy; we can't really tell.
Duncan was pretty helpless to affect things one way or the other. Loghain had very good reason not to trust him (after all, in their first encounter Duncan appeared to be involved in a plot to kidnap Maric and hand him over to Orlais), and Cailan wasn't interested in boring old tactics. Duncan should probably have taken his Wardens and left.
Duncan was pretty helpless to affect things one way or the other. Loghain had very good reason not to trust him (after all, in their first encounter Duncan appeared to be involved in a plot to kidnap Maric and hand him over to Orlais), and Cailan wasn't interested in boring old tactics. Duncan should probably have taken his Wardens and left.
#106
Posté 23 mai 2010 - 03:02
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Not to mention his inability to relay important information in a timely manner. I know I would have much preferred to be able to decide without metagaming to recruit Loghain for dragon food and Alistair could know why I did it but still be upset because he was willing to die instead and now Loghain was disrespecting all of the Wardens, ect.
It's certainly a less controversial reason than just 'he might be more useful than Alistair' or 'not going to kill a guy who surrendered in front of his daughter.'
It's certainly a less controversial reason than just 'he might be more useful than Alistair' or 'not going to kill a guy who surrendered in front of his daughter.'
#107
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Posté 23 mai 2010 - 04:25
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old book wrote...
. He was planning to get Cailan under control . . .
And there's the plot hole I was talking about.
Get him under control how? I'm not directing that at you, OldBook. I'm just saying in general - what would Loghain had done if Cailan elected to stay out of the fighting? As soon as Loghain ordered the retreat Cailan would've had a fit and contacted his Uncle Eamon. Cailan would've been told that Eamon was poisoned and that the Redcliffe Knights had caught a Maleficar sent by Loghain . . . DOH! Treason.
Or lets say Eamon died of the poison as expected and the Desire Demon never possessed Connor. So Cailan is told Eamon is dead and he contacts his other Uncle Teagan and tells him to rally the bannorn, Loghain deserted at Ostagar, and Fereldan needs to see Loghain hang for . . . treason.
I mean really . . . how did Loghain think he was going to get Cailan under control after Ostagar? Lock him up? That was Howe's answer when Anora caught on - but I don't think Loghain knew about that.
Sooner or later Loghain was going to have to kill Cailan or swing from the gallows. I see no way around it.
#108
Posté 23 mai 2010 - 04:31
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According to the devs, the poison wasn't supposed to kill Eamon only incapacitate him. If Jowan weren't so incompetent he wouldn't have been caught. I can see Loghain poisoning Eamon before the battle without intending to desert. He probably would have called a Landsmeet to get Cailan removed from power. And if you think about it, if he had allied with Howe to do this that would explain why Howe felt secure killing the Couslands. Loghain didn't have to know that was what Howe would do if he just asked him to keep the Couslands out of the way (he himself, again, wasn't planning on killing Eamon) and that would leave Cailan with no choice but to either start listening to Loghain again or to have to fight to keep his crown without his strongest supporters.
#109
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Posté 23 mai 2010 - 04:34
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This thread got waaay of topic. And that's OK - tis the nature of conversation.
But back to Duncan - I really did like him as a sort of "good" Loghain. But somebody made a good point I never thought of: he wasn't the best military strategist. I mean if the battle at Ostagar was a lost cause, he could've told Cailan to pound sand and come up with a more battle ready army. Sure he'd be angering his only supporter, but the Wardens would've lived to fight at a more appropriate time.
Riordan demonstrated that wisdom when he tells the PC that they Wardens of Orleis won't come now . . . they'll let the Blight demolish Fereldan and fight the Arch Demon on their terms.
And here's a drifting thought: had Duncan told Cailan, "Your majesty, this will not work. I must withdraw my support in order to save lives," right in front of Loghain, maybe Loghain would've let go of his suspiscions and coordinated to fight with the Wardens at Denerim or Redcliffe. But oh yeah . . . Loghain had already poisoned Eamon.
But back to Duncan - I really did like him as a sort of "good" Loghain. But somebody made a good point I never thought of: he wasn't the best military strategist. I mean if the battle at Ostagar was a lost cause, he could've told Cailan to pound sand and come up with a more battle ready army. Sure he'd be angering his only supporter, but the Wardens would've lived to fight at a more appropriate time.
Riordan demonstrated that wisdom when he tells the PC that they Wardens of Orleis won't come now . . . they'll let the Blight demolish Fereldan and fight the Arch Demon on their terms.
And here's a drifting thought: had Duncan told Cailan, "Your majesty, this will not work. I must withdraw my support in order to save lives," right in front of Loghain, maybe Loghain would've let go of his suspiscions and coordinated to fight with the Wardens at Denerim or Redcliffe. But oh yeah . . . Loghain had already poisoned Eamon.
#110
Posté 23 mai 2010 - 05:15
phaonica
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Hanz54321 wrote...
And here's a drifting thought: had Duncan told Cailan, "Your majesty, this will not work. I must withdraw my support in order to save lives," right in front of Loghain, maybe Loghain would've let go of his suspiscions and coordinated to fight with the Wardens at Denerim or Redcliffe. But oh yeah . . . Loghain had already poisoned Eamon.
It is equally likely that Loghain would have seen it as the Wardens stalling and giving even more excuse for the Orlesians to be brought in.
Modifié par phaonica, 23 mai 2010 - 05:16 .
#111
Posté 23 mai 2010 - 09:02
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Hanz54321 wrote...
But back to Duncan - I really did like him as a sort of "good" Loghain. But somebody made a good point I never thought of: he wasn't the best military strategist. I mean if the battle at Ostagar was a lost cause, he could've told Cailan to pound sand and come up with a more battle ready army. Sure he'd be angering his only supporter, but the Wardens would've lived to fight at a more appropriate time.
The important word here is IF. I really do not think the battle was unwinnable. Ostagar is a bulwark that can easily hold of way bigger armies than the defender´s.
I mean, the Fereldans defeated the Blight at Denerim - there, too, they were outnumbered 3 to 1, if not more, and they had worse territory AND the Archdemon in person killed many of them.
As the Fereldans won this battle it seems downright ridiculous to me to say Ostagar was unwinnable. After all, the Darkspawn´s power had grown since Ostagar, while Ferelden lost many.
#112
Posté 23 mai 2010 - 09:15
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Or another thought, if Duncan had picked up the treaties before heading out and finding the PC (works for any origin other than HN and CE) he might have come back with much more than one recruit. I assume he knew about them before telling you because I can't think who else might have told him after returning, after all if a patrol found the ruin all they would've found was a broken chest, so if that were the case why would Duncan send you after something he knew wasn't there? It's not like he could've known about Flemeth.Hanz54321 wrote...
And here's a drifting thought: had Duncan told Cailan, "Your majesty, this will not work. I must withdraw my support in order to save lives," right in front of Loghain, maybe Loghain would've let go of his suspiscions and coordinated to fight with the Wardens at Denerim or Redcliffe. But oh yeah . . . Loghain had already poisoned Eamon.
Although I suppose that's assuming he comes straight from Ostagar before finding the PC, which I don't think we're ever actually told.
But, yes, like you said, way off topic.
#113
Posté 23 mai 2010 - 09:15
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Double post...
Modifié par nerdage, 23 mai 2010 - 09:17 .
#114
Posté 23 mai 2010 - 09:25
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Going back to "Duncan was a Player Character" gives us the answer to why Ferelden lost at Ostagar. Remember how Cailan charged out from cover into a much less advantageous position, opening his army to get slaughtered? When he could have let the enemy come to him?
I figure that the mysterious Click-Click-Clicker above who controlled Duncan and his party was awake, caffeinated, and at the top of his game during The Calling. Then, a few months later, he came back to the game. He was rusty. Couldn't pass the Coercion check to get Cailan to wait for more troops. Finally played the Battle at Ostagar around 3 in the morning, and ended up running it on Tactics rather than paying attention and drawing in Darkspawn a few at a time. TPK.
Clearly, had he reloaded, the game would have gone very differently.
I figure that the mysterious Click-Click-Clicker above who controlled Duncan and his party was awake, caffeinated, and at the top of his game during The Calling. Then, a few months later, he came back to the game. He was rusty. Couldn't pass the Coercion check to get Cailan to wait for more troops. Finally played the Battle at Ostagar around 3 in the morning, and ended up running it on Tactics rather than paying attention and drawing in Darkspawn a few at a time. TPK.
Clearly, had he reloaded, the game would have gone very differently.
#115
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Posté 23 mai 2010 - 09:31
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nerdage wrote...
Or another thought, if Duncan had picked up the treaties before heading out and finding the PC (works for any origin other than HN and CE) he might have come back with much more than one recruit. I assume he knew about them before telling you because I can't think who else might have told him after returning, after all if a patrol found the ruin all they would've found was a broken chest, so if that were the case why would Duncan send you after something he knew wasn't there? It's not like he could've known about Flemeth.
Although I suppose that's assuming he comes straight from Ostagar before finding the PC, which I don't think we're ever actually told.
But, yes, like you said, way off topic.
My head just exploded. Yeah Duncan - why not go grab those treaties instead of recruits. Go find the Dalish and the dwarves, and demand that the Circle of Magi send everything they got. Endrin wasn't dead when duncan visited Orzammar - why not just present the treaty. The Circle of Magi were not having the Abomination Hoedown at the time of Ostagar - why not just present the treaty. The Dalish probably would've had their werewolf problem so Duncan could've just let that one pass.
In any case - good point Nerdage - Duncan could've brought two more armies with him to Ostagar following the timeline for the Dwarven Noble and Mage Origins.
Nobody's perfect. But that would've made sense.
#116
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Posté 23 mai 2010 - 09:51
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Sarah1281 wrote...
According to the devs, the poison wasn't supposed to kill Eamon only incapacitate him. If Jowan weren't so incompetent he wouldn't have been caught. I can see Loghain poisoning Eamon before the battle without intending to desert. He probably would have called a Landsmeet to get Cailan removed from power. And if you think about it, if he had allied with Howe to do this that would explain why Howe felt secure killing the Couslands. Loghain didn't have to know that was what Howe would do if he just asked him to keep the Couslands out of the way (he himself, again, wasn't planning on killing Eamon) and that would leave Cailan with no choice but to either start listening to Loghain again or to have to fight to keep his crown without his strongest supporters.
It's funny - I presented almost this exact scenario a week ago on another thread. I said Loghain could've avoided a lot of problems if he just told the Bann's that Cailan was not being realistic, they were losing the battle, and so he cut and run to save lives.
Everyone crapped all over the idea. I'm seeing their point.
As of today I'm going to say in short that your hypothetical is well presented, but I don't think it would go down that way. If Loghain tried to overthrow Cailan by way of Landsmeet after deserting at Ostagar he would fail and be hanged along with Howe.
Look at the facts: Cailan orders Loghain to fight and Loghain refuses. That's mutiny. Howe's army never even showed up at Ostagar. That's disobeying the King's edict. Once the Bannorn finds out where Howe's army were (because the human noble and Duncan told Cailan what happened, Cailan would report it, and there would be an investigation), he'd be found guilty of treason as well. Gallows.
OK - that was not so short. I just don't see Loghain taking Cailan into custody and then letting Cailan speak at a landsmeet going Loghain's way. And if Loghain doesn't let Cailan speak . . . well you saw Bann Teagan's reaction. Same thing would've happened. Teagan would be like "Where is Cailan to defend against these charges?" and the rest of the Bannorn would've done what they did anyway - called for Loghain to step down from the regency.
The only way I see Loghain pulling off "getting Cailan under control" is by killing him in secrecy after Ostagar. I know the devs say Loghain tried to save Cailan - and I agree he did. But Loghain was not thinking ahead very well because saving Cailan just was not going to work out.
#117
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Posté 23 mai 2010 - 09:59
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phaonica wrote...
Hanz54321 wrote...
And here's a drifting thought: had Duncan told Cailan, "Your majesty, this will not work. I must withdraw my support in order to save lives," right in front of Loghain, maybe Loghain would've let go of his suspiscions and coordinated to fight with the Wardens at Denerim or Redcliffe. But oh yeah . . . Loghain had already poisoned Eamon.
It is equally likely that Loghain would have seen it as the Wardens stalling and giving even more excuse for the Orlesians to be brought in.
Yup. My whole thought process on this topic is a buncha "what if"s. I'm finding some to be more likely than others. When I came up w this one I figured it was about 50/50. Loghain could've used it as a reason to distrust the Wardens even more.
#118
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Posté 23 mai 2010 - 10:16
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Modifié par Hanz54321, 23 mai 2010 - 10:21 .
#119
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Posté 23 mai 2010 - 10:36
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Tirigon wrote...
The important word here is IF. I really do not think the battle was unwinnable. Ostagar is a bulwark that can easily hold of way bigger armies than the defender´s.
I mean, the Fereldans defeated the Blight at Denerim - there, too, they were outnumbered 3 to 1, if not more, and they had worse territory AND the Archdemon in person killed many of them.
As the Fereldans won this battle it seems downright ridiculous to me to say Ostagar was unwinnable. After all, the Darkspawn´s power had grown since Ostagar, while Ferelden lost many.
I'm not really discussing whether Ostagar was unwinnable. I'm discussing Loghain and Cailan and Duncan's behaviors based on their belief that it was unwinnable.
So yeah, maybe Loghain was "downright ridiculous" to say that. Based on my discussion with Sarah I'm kind of convinced Loghain had lost his marbles and didn't know what the heck he was doing. Because Loghain knew about the lower chambers in the Tower of Ishal, I know he had no intention of that beacon ever being lit. So he was planning on retreating regardless of whether he could win or not.
But I never said Ostagar was unwinnable. I don't have an opinion on whether Ostagar was winnable or not. I wasn't on the tactical comittee.
#120
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Posté 23 mai 2010 - 10:42
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Sarah1281 wrote...
According to the devs, the poison wasn't supposed to kill Eamon only incapacitate him. If Jowan weren't so incompetent he wouldn't have been caught. I can see Loghain poisoning Eamon before the battle without intending to desert. He probably would have called a Landsmeet to get Cailan removed from power. And if you think about it, if he had allied with Howe to do this that would explain why Howe felt secure killing the Couslands. Loghain didn't have to know that was what Howe would do if he just asked him to keep the Couslands out of the way (he himself, again, wasn't planning on killing Eamon) and that would leave Cailan with no choice but to either start listening to Loghain again or to have to fight to keep his crown without his strongest supporters.
Ah crap - you said you don't think he intended to desert.
Well, my point of contention still stands because he did intend to desert. He knew about the Darkspawn in the Tower of Ishal. He intended for the beacon to never be lit, and once the Wardens were over run he would soundthe retreat.
I guess then he could lie to Cailan and chalk it up as a mistake. That might fool the kid long enough to get Cailan to agree with Loghain's plan. But then I still don't know what Loghain was thinking by poisoining Eamon.
I'm gettin tired I gotta go to bed.
#121
Posté 23 mai 2010 - 10:51
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Hanz54321 wrote...
I'm not really discussing whether Ostagar was unwinnable. I'm discussing Loghain and Cailan and Duncan's behaviors based on their belief that it was unwinnable.
Really, it's bad writing that none of them thought it was winable, or bad coordination between writers. Loghain's, Cailan's and Duncan's actions make no sense if we believe the RtO text that says Cailan knew he couldn't win and Loghain never intended to leave Cailan to die. Add in the way the Ostagar cinematic was shot and voice acted, where "Bad Guy" might as well have been written in glowing letters over Lohghain's head. So, as fans, we're left to fan ****** ways to get the story to work.
We do have a structure that kind of holds together, but it makes all three of the LCD trio look either foolish or nuts.
#122
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Posté 23 mai 2010 - 10:51
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old book wrote...
Going back to "Duncan was a Player Character" gives us the answer to why Ferelden lost at Ostagar. Remember how Cailan charged out from cover into a much less advantageous position, opening his army to get slaughtered? When he could have let the enemy come to him?
I figure that the mysterious Click-Click-Clicker above who controlled Duncan and his party was awake, caffeinated, and at the top of his game during The Calling. Then, a few months later, he came back to the game. He was rusty. Couldn't pass the Coercion check to get Cailan to wait for more troops. Finally played the Battle at Ostagar around 3 in the morning, and ended up running it on Tactics rather than paying attention and drawing in Darkspawn a few at a time. TPK.
Clearly, had he reloaded, the game would have gone very differently.
(Applauds)
Refreshing break from more serious minded thinking / debating type discussions.
#123
Posté 23 mai 2010 - 10:58
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Dezhem wrote...
Anyone share my view that Duncan is probably the most likeable character ever? No matter what sort of character I'm playing, be it xenophobic insane dwarf, blood mage, 'Paladin', manic Elf or any combination really; I just can't bring myself to choose the 'disrespectful' option.
He's honourable, a great fighter, willing to go to great lengths to protect the world, well read and really quite charismatic. Race, colour, station; He doesn't care about any of those things.
I'd love for some DLC taking us through Duncans' earlier years!
I think Duncan can come across as the least objectionable character. He's a little bit like "Old Ben" Kenobi from Star Wars (IV) and Gandalf. The wisened, bearded father figure (of sorts) that introduces the hero to his journey. And everyone tends to like that guy. Now, Duncan has a darker past than those others and also does things that are more disagreeable (such as his actions in the Joining). But, on the whole, people still like him.
In polls, it seems Morrigan wins most of the time. So she may be the most cited favorite. But she's certainly not the "least objectionable character" simply because so many just despise her. She's polarizing in a way that Duncan is not.
So "most likable"? Maybe in that he may be the character that has the best Rotten Tomatoes score (like vs dislike), but I wouldn't think he's the #1 pick for a lot of gamers--that would probably go to a player's favorite romanceable character.
#124
Posté 23 mai 2010 - 11:02
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I know what you mean. Duncan's awesome. I wish he didn't have to die at the beginning. It would have been great having him as a party member.
#125
Posté 23 mai 2010 - 12:07
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Aryck1095 V2 wrote...
I know what you mean. Duncan's awesome. I wish he didn't have to die at the beginning. It would have been great having him as a party member.
True. We need another male romance option, we need a dualwielder anyways and he´s the only guy with a cool, shiny armor.
