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Industrygamers interviews Ray Muzyka


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#26
billy the squid

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devSin wrote...

Oh, please. You don't even have an accurate sales number for Origins. You can say 3-4 million, but is that Origins, or is that Dragon Age (Origins, Awakening, and Ultimate Edition)? And you don't have period sales for Origins, because the numbers have been fudged.

Dragon Age II shipped around 2 million copies and sold around 75% of them, near as anyone can tell. It also broke a million units much faster than Origins, by all accounts, and initial sales have more weight than lifetime sales (it's not enough to sell 3 million copies 2 years later).

Hate DA2 if you want, but stop with the nonsense. Ray said it's commercially successful, so guess what: Dragon Age II was a commercially successful product. That doesn't mean you have to like it, that doesn't mean you have to be happy about it, but you need to at least accept it.


It is utterly daft to blindly accept a PR statement.

Initial sales of DA2 were inflated by the initial marketing and buzz generated by the being the sequal to DAO, product equity is important, especially if the developer tries to sell another product to the same market again. Sold in numbers do not reflect any contractual obligations EA has with disrtibution channel players, namely credit arrangements, buy back clauses, bulk shipments. To bump up the sold in numbers and associated revenue  for the fiscal report to shareholders.

In addition no publicly listed company would ever allow an employee to state that their product failed to reach projected profits, not without inviting investors to short stock or spread bet against the company. "commercially succesful" can imply anything better than breaking even, not particularly great if the cost to earnings ratio is low enough that EA has to find the development revenues from other products, causing potentially higher gearing ratios if the company has to go to the market again to secure short term finance.

So simple arguements, that it was commercially succesful, without context are not particularly good.

Modifié par billy the squid, 10 août 2011 - 06:54 .


#27
xtemporary

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Actually you can check the sales for DAO at any given time - no problem - you don't belive, go check for yourself.
And it is for DAO only. DAA have separate page on vgchartz.
OK:
after 22 weeks
DAO - 2,62 mils
DA2 - 1,46 mils

At this time there was no Ultimate edition so these sales are for DAO only.

#28
erichtho

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"There’s some cool stuff in the works there."

I don't want cool, I want earth-shattering... XD

Though really, even a bit of seriousness would work as a delightful surprise.

#29
devSin

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billy the squid wrote...

So simple arguements, that it was commercially succesful, without context are not particularly good.

It's irrelevant (and it's odd that you would lecture context, seemingly ignoring the context of the thread's responses).

Nobody is saying that the game was a blockbuster. Nobody is suggesting that it's proof of a sustainable business.

What is suggested is that there are less fans coming in than going out, and that success was less than Origins. Since you can't say exactly how well Origins performed (nor can you map any sales number to meaningful data), it doesn't seem to be a particularly good use of effort to try to argue Ray's statements.

Modifié par devSin, 10 août 2011 - 07:06 .


#30
Brockololly

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Meh- same old, same old.

"Surprise and Delight!" "Core fans!" "Best of both!" "Innovation!" "Risky!" "Critical and commercial success!" "Feedback!" "Drawing new fans in!"

The biggest thing that gets me is how they keep saying they'll take feedback to heart from "core fans" when, as the 180 DA2 took shows, they'll just do whatever the hell they want. Which is BioWare's right of course, but then they shouldn't be surprised when they lose a healthy chunk of their "core" audience.

#31
T764

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Monica21 wrote...


"Maybe some of that can be attributed to some of the fans of Dragon Age: Origins who were maybe expecting a similar experience."

I never understand quotes like this. When a game is a sequel, yes, you expect it to have similar gameplay and mechanics than the original. As a player, I wish a dev would explain what this means.


The problem with change is that its critical reception is random, some games will be hammered for "not changing" (even when they do) and in some that don't change, nobody cares.

I think that expectation is one of the most influential factors in a person liking or disliking something and that those comments are not entierly unreasonable. 

#32
Dragoonlordz

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And part of the solution for core fans should also come via DLC, said Muzyka.


Sure, core fans specifically ones who didn't like DA2 will have to pay 'extra' money through DLC to just maybe get same level of enjoyment as the ones that liked the game, win/win there RM. /sarcasm.

I can't be the only one who interpreted that as group a) enjoyed game for retail price and group B) did not enjoy game and if want to stand even a chance of enjoying it they have to buy the (fixes/improvement DLC) as an added price on top of retail.

Now I knew that would happen and thats not directly the issue but what annoys me is he sounds proud of it.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 10 août 2011 - 07:34 .


#33
fchopin

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I should stop reading the interviews, they are not good for me.

I was going to say more but it's a waist of time.

#34
Stanley Woo

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Let's tone down the bickering a little bit, folks, and try to disagree with each other (and/or us) without resorting to juvenile behaviour. Please remember that, regardless of whether or not you believe in a PR statement, they are made by people with a lot more information than you have and who know what we want to do with Dragon Age and where we want it to go. Your disbelief in or disagreement with that direction does not change that, nor are we making the game specifically for you as an individual, so let's please not all pretend we have any experience or power in driving a multi-billion dollar corporation in any way, shape or form.

Game development is all about making choices, just as buying a game is all about choices. Sometimes our choices will coincide with yours, sometimes they won't, but let's not kid ourselves in thinking that our choices always have to coincide or else it means we're the devil who's stealing money out of your pocket and kicking your puppy.

Dragoonlordz says
Sure, core fans specifically ones who didn't like DA2 will have to pay 'extra' money through DLC to just maybe get same level of enjoyment as the ones that liked the game, win/win there RM. /sarcasm.

You and you alone choose what DLC to purchase. how much fun other people are having with a game is really no one's business but theirs. Take responsibility for your own choices and focus on your own enjoyment of a game instead of blaming anyone else when you feel you're not having as much fun as you could be having.

#35
Dragoonlordz

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Stanley Woo wrote...

Dragoonlordz says
Sure, core fans specifically ones who didn't like DA2 will have to pay 'extra' money through DLC to just maybe get same level of enjoyment as the ones that liked the game, win/win there RM. /sarcasm.


You and you alone choose what DLC to purchase. how much fun other people are having with a game is really no one's business but theirs. Take responsibility for your own choices and focus on your own enjoyment of a game instead of blaming anyone else when you feel you're not having as much fun as you could be having.


It's not a solution that someone aka myself should be happy with. While obviously it was going to happen given negative reaction to the original title, it annoys me tbh slightly when it comes across as don't worry if you invest more money maybe you can get same enjoyment as a solution. Yes thats the way the world works but doesn't mean I have to like it. I got nothing against RM, I would have said same thing if someone at Bethesda or CDPR or even my next door neighbour had said it.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 10 août 2011 - 07:46 .


#36
alex90c

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Stanley Woo wrote...

Let's tone down the bickering a little bit, folks, and try to disagree with each other (and/or us) without resorting to juvenile behaviour. Please remember that, regardless of whether or not you believe in a PR statement, they are made by people with a lot more information than you have and who know what we want to do with Dragon Age and where we want it to go. Your disbelief in or disagreement with that direction does not change that, nor are we making the game specifically for you as an individual, so let's please not all pretend we have any experience or power in driving a multi-billion dollar corporation in any way, shape or form.

Game development is all about making choices, just as buying a game is all about choices. Sometimes our choices will coincide with yours, sometimes they won't, but let's not kid ourselves in thinking that our choices always have to coincide or else it means we're the devil who's stealing money out of your pocket and kicking your puppy.

Dragoonlordz says
Sure, core fans specifically ones who didn't like DA2 will have to pay 'extra' money through DLC to just maybe get same level of enjoyment as the ones that liked the game, win/win there RM. /sarcasm.

You and you alone choose what DLC to purchase. how much fun other people are having with a game is really no one's business but theirs. Take responsibility for your own choices and focus on your own enjoyment of a game instead of blaming anyone else when you feel you're not having as much fun as you could be having.


Maybe Bioware should pull a Hawke, get told to do stuff regarding their games by some higher-up(s) and go through with it anyway even if they personally don't want to :lol:

#37
Salaya

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I understand that devs and managers have to defend their product. What really amuses me is that they treat some of their audience as naive people (or similar, but thougher apelatives). I read this some days ago and I felt dissapointed ._.

Yeah, as if expecting something in the lines of Origins was absurd... sigh. I read this, and even if that's not his inttention, I feel as if it's my fault not to like DA2!

Anyway, whatever happens to Dragon Age 3 (or any other title in the franchise), I hope that press statements low their tone, and just stay in the line of defending the game.

#38
Monica21

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Stanley Woo wrote...

Let's tone down the bickering a little bit, folks, and try to disagree with each other (and/or us) without resorting to juvenile behaviour. Please remember that, regardless of whether or not you believe in a PR statement, they are made by people with a lot more information than you have and who know what we want to do with Dragon Age and where we want it to go. Your disbelief in or disagreement with that direction does not change that, nor are we making the game specifically for you as an individual, so let's please not all pretend we have any experience or power in driving a multi-billion dollar corporation in any way, shape or form.

Stanley, no one is saying that a billion dollar corporation can't go where it wants to go. The majority of us understand that game companies are a for-profit industry and need to make money. The problem you have is that you made a game and people liked it. Then you made a sequel and a whole hell of a lot of fans who liked the first game didn't like the second one. You all are saying you want fan feedback and that you're reading comments, but then I read this and I think all I'm getting is a "multi billion dollar company" telling me how it's going to be. Well, which is it? Do you want fan feedback or had you already determined where DA is going and by God that's where it's going?

Game development is all about making choices, just as buying a game is all about choices. Sometimes our choices will coincide with yours, sometimes they won't, but let's not kid ourselves in thinking that our choices always have to coincide or else it means we're the devil who's stealing money out of your pocket and kicking your puppy.

*facepalm*

The difference here too is that people ran out to buy a game based on their first experience and then you gave them an entirely different experience. You realize that we're talking about actual money here, right? This isn't a game where you get coppers for selling Tiger's Eye Fragments. People paid for it and it wasn't what they thought it was. Also, just FYI, the world economy is crashing, so be honest with us about what you're giving us. Some people play for escapism, and I certainly don't want to spend $60 on a game I won't like based on the expectation of a previous game when that money could just as well have been spent on gas. This isn't a movie where you feel like you can get away with spending $10 at a matinee and it's not a car you can test drive before you buy. When you buy it, too bad, it's yours.

#39
bEVEsthda

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I think that when we say we "can't understand" we're overestimating people.

Which is where this story from real life fits in:
There was once upon a time a hugely anticipated game title up for launch. We can call it 'Wacka'. The developer of 'Wacka', which we can call 'Minute', had a very solid reputation for producing games resembling simulations. There was always something interesting going on in Minute's games. But never much combat or war. In short, they weren't like most other games at all. But they did have a large following of people.

Well, this developer, Minute, had been purchased by a large publisher, which we can call 'Soft Creations'. And Minute was pulling in a lot of money to 'Soft Creations'. They did this mainly with a franchise which many in the marketing department of 'Soft Creations' had never believed in. So the spectacular success of this franchise surprised them greatly. Clearly, here was an opportunity to learn something new.
So they invented a label for this crowd of gamers, we can pretend that label was "accidental gamers". And they set out to learn as much as possible about these gamers.

This is where something went horribly wrong. I don't know exactly what, but there seem to have been conflicting interests inside the marketing department. This is at a time when it's a great concern that the age distribution of gamers is so even. Too many players are too old. Clearly, there is not the healthy recruitment of new players through kids, that the corporation had built their expectations for the future on. So getting more children to play video games became a major goal of marketing.

Now I can tell exactly who the "accidental gamers" are and what they like. They are really two different groups, combined.
Group One: They are intelligent people, but of the kind of intelligence which makes them consider most videogames beneath them and 'childish'. And they particularly abhor games putting violence as their focus. What draws them and entertains them is when they see something interesting going on. And they almost always got introduced to their gaming on their PC, and through their gaming children, husbands, girlfriends whatever family members. 
Group two: Is all the usual hardcore gamers, who want to experience something new, and actually also likes when there is something interesting going on. These are also the very same family members who originally purchased the games which the 'Group One' got hooked on.

But somehow, don't ask me how, 'Accidental Gamers' suddenly became about recruiting and introducing children to videogaming. If you think that's a crazy leap that defies all logic and that there can't possibly be so stupid people holding jobs in marketing at a big corporation, well wait for the end of this story, because it gets crazier.

The fundamental cornerstones in the marketing's 'accidental gamer' theory was that he/she was inept and new at playing videogames and thus needed easy gameplay. And also easily amused simpletons. The idea seems to be that children and 'accidental gamers' were groups that could and should be recruited and educated together, with the same means, to real videogaming and thus enlarging the market for farther goals.

And the task to do this went to 'Minute' by association. Minute was Soft Creation's spectacularly successful and major developer for what was now considered 'accidental gamers'. And they had a new game going, Wacka. They had developed fantastic new technologies and entirely new concepts in gaming. It all looked very exiting. But it also seemed like it wouldn't do. Minute was screwing things up. They weren't at all going into the directions that they should. And Wacka's head designer had always been an odd, unreliable and strange goof. Everybody knew that. Certainly, his straight line of successes must be mostly due to sheer luck? And this time it seemed he would surely fail most ugly. And with tons of Soft Creations money invested in the project.

Soft Creations consider their marketing group an asset, an in house research tool for developers to use, in shaping their games for greater success. So the head designer was taken to a number of meetings where he was educated about his customers, the 'accidental gamers', and how big this market was, how important it was to recruit more kids to gaming, and how important this game, Wacka, was for all this. If he got it "right". "Don't screw up this!" "Don't drop the ball on this". This designer, who until this always had gone on his own instincts and taste, was taught something entirely new: To design a game by calculation and targeting the gamers. He had no reasons to doubt the marketing people. After all, they knew so much more about this than he, didn't they?

So when Wacka was released, it came out with fantastic, never before seen technologies. But instead of the intricate and interesting simulation, that millions of gamers had anticipated for years, actual gameplay consisted of extremely simplified versions of Soft Creations more normal game genre's. RTS, RPG, and an ultra-tedius 4X (maybe intended as teraphy for retards).
And the overwhelming emphasis on gameplay was on KILLING, GENOCIDE, WAR, CONQUERING, EXTERMINATION.

But the "funniest" thing in this story (if one can talk about "funny" in this context) is still not told.
While there was a horrible and lasting uproar about the poor gameplay, this was initially drowned in another uproar.
You see, before Wacka was released, it was decided on a new IP-protection. Each and every copy would only be possible to install precisely three times. No more. No rollback. And you must be connected to internet while installing, and it will only be possible to install as long as the online servers are up.

It certainly defies my imagination how something as crazy as this could pass Soft Creation's marketing department. Why didn't they react and stop this madness? It's their job and duty. I mean this is not just stupid, it's so unthinkingly stupid that it's insane. And how could this decision pass the CEO and the leadership?

But it gets worse, much worse. Because Wacka also introduced a piece of code that permanently altered the OS of the customers PC, with no possibilty to change back, but format C: and reinstalling Windows. Now if that seems alarming to you, consider this: This code, which we can call 'RiscyDriveVirus' had ALREADY collected, AND LOST, a number of lawsuits all over the world. It had already been ruled against!
Can anybody who delivers this with his product be considered competent? Isn't there something fantastically, unbelievably wrong here?
But it gets even worse: It was kept completely secret! The product was distributed utterly void of any information about this. Not even in the licence, which nobody bothers to read, was there any mention of this. So not only did they do something bad, they also spread wide for class lawsuits.
...
...
Posted Image


But Nah, Posted Image Fooled you! This has of course never happened Posted Image Surely not. It cannot happen. HaHa. Right?

...or.. Posted Image  Did it really?

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 10 août 2011 - 11:03 .


#40
billy the squid

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devSin wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

So simple arguements, that it was commercially succesful, without context are not particularly good.

It's irrelevant (and it's odd that you would lecture context, seemingly ignoring the context of the thread's responses).

Nobody is saying that the game was a blockbuster. Nobody is suggesting that it's proof of a sustainable business.

What is suggested is that there are less fans coming in than going out, and that success was less than Origins. Since you can't say exactly how well Origins performed (nor can you map any sales number to meaningful data), it doesn't seem to be a particularly good use of effort to try to argue Ray's statements.


My statement has been towards you,what discussions other people are having is not a concern of mine.

I have not ignored the context, in responding to you. No one has stated that the product was not commercially succesfull, it obviously was, expenditure will always be far lower on a project with such a shorter design period unless the development team expanded dramatically, or DAO's costs are far lower than one would expect for a 5 year development. Commercial success does not refer to whether new consumers have been attracted, it refers to has the product been successful as at generating revenue streams, which it has, and no one has stated the contrary.

So your statement that people need to accept it as a commercial success is moot and ignoring the points made. As no one has claimed it is not. I am stating that "commercial success" should not be interpreted as resounding success or anything of the sort, which you seemed to imply by stating it should be accepted directly from the statement, given the multiplicity of unknowns or without any definitive numbers from EA as I stated, I wouldn't hazzard to guess DA2's numbers other than EA's own fiscal report.
 
Even ball park figures of origins in statements from EA ranked it at roughly 3.8 million, I believe, in mid 2010, which were apparantly for origins only. Sales figures though do not soley dictate commercial success, which is why I have made no attempt to claim such a thing. Yet, commercial success neither deals with product equity, marketability of successors, consumer base expansion, which would be increadibly difficult to determine. As such the only reliable data they would have is revenue, which of course I would not argue over as I don't have that data. 

As to new fans coming in to replace old fans. How does the developer tell which sales are attributed to new fans and which are to the old? In doing so how does one determine if their fan base has grown.

#41
CloudOfShadows

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Monica21 wrote...

The difference here too is that people ran out to buy a game based on their first experience and then you gave them an entirely different experience. You realize that we're talking about actual money here, right? 


Well.

Oddly enough, they got my money because they changed so many things. Mind you, I really liked Origins, but after playing through DA2, I think they nailed just about everything. The thing that imho drove most people off was that the story line wasn't stereotypical enough, and wasn't presented in a good way. (Too scattered, I think).

I made my choice to buy DA2 only after playing the demo, and I saw what I wanted to see. I bought the game, thoroughly enjoyed it, and was very glad for what they did. Move away from Origins. What I see "same old, same old" is people still moaning about not getting Origins 2. That's getting really old.

I'm happy with the direction DA2 took from DA:O. I hope they manage to improve on things that were lacking (like story presentation, illusion of choices, etc) I hope they bring back a finished story line - and don't aim for an open end like NWN again.

#42
fchopin

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billy the squid wrote...

As to new fans coming in to replace old fans. How does the developer tell which sales are attributed to new fans and which are to the old? In doing so how does one determine if their fan base has grown.



I think they can get a good estimate by the new accounts created and checking which of the new accounts have registered the game.

#43
Luke Barrett

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billy the squid wrote...
As to new fans coming in to replace old fans. How does the developer tell which sales are attributed to new fans and which are to the old? In doing so how does one determine if their fan base has grown.


Not that it's a perfect representation but we can tell who is importing from DAO and who isn't so that would be my guess as to how they distinguish that.

#44
Monica21

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CloudOfShadows wrote...
Well.

Oddly enough, they got my money because they changed so many things. Mind you, I really liked Origins, but after playing through DA2, I think they nailed just about everything. The thing that imho drove most people off was that the story line wasn't stereotypical enough, and wasn't presented in a good way. (Too scattered, I think).

I made my choice to buy DA2 only after playing the demo, and I saw what I wanted to see. I bought the game, thoroughly enjoyed it, and was very glad for what they did. Move away from Origins. What I see "same old, same old" is people still moaning about not getting Origins 2. That's getting really old.

I'm happy with the direction DA2 took from DA:O. I hope they manage to improve on things that were lacking (like story presentation, illusion of choices, etc) I hope they bring back a finished story line - and don't aim for an open end like NWN again.

That's great. You are probably the target market. 

#45
bEVEsthda

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Luke Barrett wrote...

billy the squid wrote...
As to new fans coming in to replace old fans. How does the developer tell which sales are attributed to new fans and which are to the old? In doing so how does one determine if their fan base has grown.


Not that it's a perfect representation but we can tell who is importing from DAO and who isn't so that would be my guess as to how they distinguish that.


That's not smart at all.Posted Image  And you won't learn anything.

Why would all import when it doesn't matter much?
They could have problems choosing what to import, having many different DA:O plays to choose from, so maybe they go first DA2 run (and only, but they didn't know that then) without importing.
They could be on a different or new computer, and not be able to import any DA:O.
They could have uninstalled DA:O for whatever reason.

#46
Morroian

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alex90c wrote...

I find those interviews so rage inducing.

Statements from the interview  like: "We also recognize that feedback from core fans is incredibly important, so we take that to heart. We’re listening to it." and "and what we want to do in the future is make sure we integrate that feedback from our core fans, so they come along with us for the journey, as we continue to build up the Dragon Age franchise" and We wanted the team to push in that direction, but we also want to integrate feedback from our core fans because they’re really important to us. " are rage inducing?

Monica21 wrote...

 You all are saying you want fan feedback and that you're reading comments, but then I read this and I think all I'm getting is a "multi billion dollar company" telling me how it's going to be. Well, which is it? Do you want fan feedback or had you already determined where DA is going and by God that's where it's going?

Given the above comments in the PR statement I don't see how it can be interpreted that way.

Modifié par Morroian, 10 août 2011 - 09:23 .


#47
Monica21

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Morroian wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

I find those interviews so rage inducing.

Statements like: ""We also recognize that feedback from core fans is incredibly important, so we take that to heart. We’re listening to it." and "and what we want to do in the future is make sure we integrate that feedback from our core fans, so they come along with us for the journey, as we continue to build up the Dragon Age franchise" and We wanted the team to push in that direction, but we also want to integrate feedback from our core fans because they’re really important to us. " are rage inducing?

Let's be fair. I can't find a single quote from Stanley saying that unless it's from another thread. Another poster in this thread said that, but not Stanley.

#48
Jamie_edmo

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Monica21 wrote...

Morroian wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

I find those interviews so rage inducing.

Statements like: ""We also recognize that feedback from core fans is incredibly important, so we take that to heart. We’re listening to it." and "and what we want to do in the future is make sure we integrate that feedback from our core fans, so they come along with us for the journey, as we continue to build up the Dragon Age franchise" and We wanted the team to push in that direction, but we also want to integrate feedback from our core fans because they’re really important to us. " are rage inducing?

Let's be fair. I can't find a single quote from Stanley saying that unless it's from another thread. Another poster in this thread said that, but not Stanley.


This, cant find that quote either

#49
Morroian

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Monica21 wrote...

Morroian wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

I find those interviews so rage inducing.

Statements like: ""We also recognize that feedback from core fans is incredibly important, so we take that to heart. We’re listening to it." and "and what we want to do in the future is make sure we integrate that feedback from our core fans, so they come along with us for the journey, as we continue to build up the Dragon Age franchise" and We wanted the team to push in that direction, but we also want to integrate feedback from our core fans because they’re really important to us. " are rage inducing?

Let's be fair. I can't find a single quote from Stanley saying that unless it's from another thread. Another poster in this thread said that, but not Stanley.

Fixed in original post. Weird forum behaviour, came up with Stanley's name because he'd edited the post I was replying to.

#50
alex90c

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Morroian wrote...

Statements from the interview  like: "We also recognize that feedback from core fans is incredibly important, so we take that to heart. We’re listening to it." and "and what we want to do in the future is make sure we integrate that feedback from our core fans, so they come along with us for the journey, as we continue to build up the Dragon Age franchise" and We wanted the team to push in that direction, but we also want to integrate feedback from our core fans because they’re really important to us. " are rage inducing?


You know full well that it's not those statements that irritate me, don't play dumb.