220 réponses à ce sujet

[Jamie_edmo]

Morroian wrote...

Fixed in original post. Weird forum behaviour, came up with Stanley's name because he'd edited the post I was replying to.

Lol, didn't think Stanley would say that about his boss:P

[KnightofPhoenix]

Monica21 wrote...
The difference here too is that people ran out to buy a game based on their first experience and then you gave them an entirely different experience. You realize that we're talking about actual money here, right? This isn't a game where you get coppers for selling Tiger's Eye Fragments. People paid for it and it wasn't what they thought it was. Also, just FYI, the world economy is crashing, so be honest with us about what you're giving us. Some people play for escapism, and I certainly don't want to spend $60 on a game I won't like based on the expectation of a previous game when that money could just as well have been spent on gas. This isn't a movie where you feel like you can get away with spending $10 at a matinee and it's not a car you can test drive before you buy. When you buy it, too bad, it's yours.

I want to cry for my 60$. Serious, I never regretted a purchase as much as this one. The money that I could have used to buy Deus Ex, I completely and utterly wasted.

I could blame the dishonest, vague marketing, but ultimately, I admit that I was being stupid. I believed Bioware like the fan I was, thought they would make a quality product (I was never expecting Origins), thought they respected the franchise, and like an idiot I pre-ordered. A mistake I will never commit again.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 10 août 2011 - 09:31 .

[FieryDove]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Not that it's a perfect representation but we can tell who is importing from DAO and who isn't so that would be my guess as to how they distinguish that.

That isn't a good way to judge I'm thinking.

I went from xp to 7, I lost all xxx of my wardens. Not to mention I had data collecting off and internet blocked while playing. I don't mind data collecting per se but if it's not spelled out what is being collected I go out of my way to block it. Just a personal nitpick of mine.

Besides if someone found out what xxx was they would probably come to my house and try to escort me away in something white. (I did say try Chow -Chows of doom and all) ha.

[Morroian]

alex90c wrote...

Morroian wrote...

Statements from the interview  like: "We also recognize that feedback from core fans is incredibly important, so we take that to heart. We’re listening to it." and "and what we want to do in the future is make sure we integrate that feedback from our core fans, so they come along with us for the journey, as we continue to build up the Dragon Age franchise" and We wanted the team to push in that direction, but we also want to integrate feedback from our core fans because they’re really important to us. " are rage inducing?

You know full well that it's not those statements that irritate me, don't play dumb.

I wasn't, even with the other statements in it when he says the above why get angry? 

[Monica21]

Morroian wrote...

alex90c wrote...

Morroian wrote...

Statements from the interview  like: "We also recognize that feedback from core fans is incredibly important, so we take that to heart. We’re listening to it." and "and what we want to do in the future is make sure we integrate that feedback from our core fans, so they come along with us for the journey, as we continue to build up the Dragon Age franchise" and We wanted the team to push in that direction, but we also want to integrate feedback from our core fans because they’re really important to us. " are rage inducing?

You know full well that it's not those statements that irritate me, don't play dumb.

I wasn't, even with the other statements in it when he says the above why get angry? 

Because your entire post is out of context since you thought you were replying to Stanley and you weren't. Just a guess.

[hoorayforicecream]

FieryDove wrote...

Luke Barrett wrote...

Not that it's a perfect representation but we can tell who is importing from DAO and who isn't so that would be my guess as to how they distinguish that.

That isn't a good way to judge I'm thinking.

I went from xp to 7, I lost all xxx of my wardens. Not to mention I had data collecting off and internet blocked while playing. I don't mind data collecting per se but if it's not spelled out what is being collected I go out of my way to block it. Just a personal nitpick of mine.

Besides if someone found out what xxx was they would probably come to my house and try to escort me away in something white. (I did say try Chow -Chows of doom and all) ha.

There are other ways to do so rather easily. For example:

1. EA accounts that had DAO registered first, then DA2 second <<< returning player
2. EA accounts that had DAO registered, but no DA2 <<< not returning player
3. EA accounts that had DA2 registered first, then DAO second <<< new player
4. EA accounts that had DA2 registered, but no DAO <<< new player

... etc.

Edit: To head it off at the pass, yes. This isn't perfect either. Some people may not have liked it. Some people may have registered DAO on a different account, some people may have forgotten to register DAO until after DA2, blah blah. That's all possible. However, since many features (special items, etc.) require registering at startup, it's still acceptable within a certain degree of error, and much more accurate than blind guessing.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 10 août 2011 - 10:45 .

[Luke Barrett]

That was just my thought, I have 0 idea how it's actually derived. I'm sure there is some mathemagic at the very least.

And yes, any time we edit a post if someone quotes that person it uses our name. I've frequently been quoted instead of Chris because I like to go in and edit his spelling

Modifié par Luke Barrett, 10 août 2011 - 10:47 .

[Morroian]

Monica21 wrote...

Because your entire post is out of context since you thought you were replying to Stanley and you weren't. Just a guess.

I didn't think I was replying to Stanley, I knew I was replying to Alex and using quotes from the Ray Muzyka interview.

[billy the squid]

Luke Barrett wrote...

That was just my thought, I have 0 idea how it's actually derived. I'm sure there is some mathemagic at the very least.

And yes, any time we edit a post if someone quotes that person it uses our name. I've frequently been quoted instead of Chris because I like to go in and edit his spelling

Thats what you want us to think, isn't it. I'm on to you Mr. Barrett, or should I say Mr.Priestly 

Edit:
Thanks for the attempt at answering that, as I had absolutely no clue as to how metric data would be handled other than giving some indication of who played what, it must be mind boggling to try and work out the details.

Personally I think I'll stick to reading about legislation, business adminstration and socio economics. Fun, Fun, Fun.

Modifié par billy the squid, 10 août 2011 - 11:16 .

[Kaizerzero2]

I find it funny how the team has to continue to defend DA2. You had a game (DAO) that, upon release, the fans loved. Interviews all over the place, told investors that we believe in this new game, even released a Toolset that "will be available to the community, to anyone who wishes to build their own adventures within the Dragon Age universe."
Wow! Great! Day-one purchase for me! So, after 3 months, this comes out:

http://www.ea.com/ne...-platinum-sales

EA internal data used! Metacritic score at 91! Happy people all around!

Now we get to DA2.... Press release of great sales numbers and how the game did so well in 3 months of release:
......uhhh, errr......hmmmm....

You messed up this round. DA2 has split the community. DLC, no matter how good, will not make people run out and buy the game. Fight back! Create something that will blow us away! The 'core' fans will be watching very closely at DA3's progress....

[Cutlasskiwi]

Brockololly wrote...

Meh- same old, same old.

"Surprise and Delight!" "Core fans!" "Best of both!" "Innovation!" "Risky!" "Critical and commercial success!" "Feedback!" "Drawing new fans in!"

The biggest thing that gets me is how they keep saying they'll take feedback to heart from "core fans" when, as the 180 DA2 took shows, they'll just do whatever the hell they want. Which is BioWare's right of course, but then they shouldn't be surprised when they lose a healthy chunk of their "core" audience.

I'm more interested in whether he meant Origins core fans or just BioWare's in general. I'm guessing BioWare.

Besides, after DAO came out I saw a lot of people asking for things that are in DA2. Voiced PC, less clunky and slow combat, more manageable skills, better crafting system etc.. So I don't see the 180 that apparently took place. For me, both games are pretty much the same under the hood.

[hoorayforicecream]

Kaizerzero2 wrote...

I find it funny how the team has to continue to defend DA2. You had a game (DAO) that, upon release, the fans loved. Interviews all over the place, told investors that we believe in this new game, even released a Toolset that "will be available to the community, to anyone who wishes to build their own adventures within the Dragon Age universe."
Wow! Great! Day-one purchase for me! So, after 3 months, this comes out:

http://www.ea.com/ne...-platinum-sales

EA internal data used! Metacritic score at 91! Happy people all around!

Now we get to DA2.... Press release of great sales numbers and how the game did so well in 3 months of release:
......uhhh, errr......hmmmm....

It has this: Dragon Age 2 sells 2 million copies.

This was covered elsewhere already. 

But, you know, whatever.

[bEVEsthda]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Kaizerzero2 wrote...

I find it funny how the team has to continue to defend DA2. You had a game (DAO) that, upon release, the fans loved. Interviews all over the place, told investors that we believe in this new game, even released a Toolset that "will be available to the community, to anyone who wishes to build their own adventures within the Dragon Age universe."
Wow! Great! Day-one purchase for me! So, after 3 months, this comes out:

http://www.ea.com/ne...-platinum-sales

EA internal data used! Metacritic score at 91! Happy people all around!

Now we get to DA2.... Press release of great sales numbers and how the game did so well in 3 months of release:
......uhhh, errr......hmmmm....

It has this: Dragon Age 2 sells 2 million copies.

This was covered elsewhere already. 

But, you know, whatever.

The key word here is "in". I'm afraid that means it hasn't sold 2 mil at all.
It's how many copies have been delivered to retailers, on these retailers expectations on how well the game will do.
And that 'sell in' was the accomplishment of DA:O. the previous game.

[hoorayforicecream]

bEVEsthda wrote...

The key word here is "in". I'm afraid that means it hasn't sold 2 mil at all.
It's how many copies have been delivered to retailers, on these retailers expectations on how well the game will do.
And that 'sell in' was the accomplishment of DA:O. the previous game.

The link from the post I quoted said 3.2 million units sold in. The articles I linked also say over 2 million units sold in. Why are the sold in units of one a good gauge, but the sold in of the other somehow not?

Oh, are you doing that thing where you move the goalposts?

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 10 août 2011 - 11:57 .

[In Exile]

Aaleel wrote...

I don't know if I buy the whole PR speak, we got lots of new fans. But for arguments sake, say it's true. If they brought in "a lot of new fans", and sold less copies, it means they lost A LOT of the core fans from the first game.  

It could also mean that the first game was not succesful in keeping fans, i.e. lots of people bought DA:O, then said "this is a POS, never buying DA product again."

[In Exile]

billy the squid wrote...
Even ball park figures of origins in statements from EA ranked it at roughly 3.8 million, I believe, in mid 2010, which were apparantly for origins only. Sales figures though do not soley dictate commercial success, which is why I have made no attempt to claim such a thing. Yet, commercial success neither deals with product equity, marketability of successors, consumer base expansion, which would be increadibly difficult to determine. As such the only reliable data they would have is revenue, which of course I would not argue over as I don't have that data. 

As to new fans coming in to replace old fans. How does the developer tell which sales are attributed to new fans and which are to the old? In doing so how does one determine if their fan base has grown.

The issue, though, is that if DA:O is not a commercial success, then DA:O fans (in a sense) are not a desirable audience. Because DA:O is not a game the company would want to make again, then fans of DA:O are not a target for the company. So losing 5,000,000 DA:O only fans, but gaining 1,000,000 DA2 fans, even if DA2 has less fans, still makes the DA2 fans "better" in the sense that they are commercially viable for the future.

Not that I buy this one bit. DA:O was clearly well received and had high expectations, and DA2 pretty clearly flubbled these based on user ratings... pretty much everywhere (including gamespot, where DA2 has favourable ratings... but not like DA:O).

Still, you can grow the business by losing 4/5th of your customers.  

[Morroian]

bEVEsthda wrote...

It's how many copies have been delivered to retailers, on these retailers expectations on how well the game will do.

EA gets paid for all of those copies, they are not held at retailers on consignment.

[Gunderic]

In Exile wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

I don't know if I buy the whole PR speak, we got lots of new fans. But for arguments sake, say it's true. If they brought in "a lot of new fans", and sold less copies, it means they lost A LOT of the core fans from the first game.  

It could also mean that the first game was not succesful in keeping fans, i.e. lots of people bought DA:O, then said "this is a POS, never buying DA product again."

It did get a lot of DLC and an expansion pack, so I do believe there was a significant amount of interest/demand for the game.

To be frank, I'm not expecting Dragon Age 2 to get the same treatment.

[Dragoonlordz]

In Exile wrote...

billy the squid wrote...
Even ball park figures of origins in statements from EA ranked it at roughly 3.8 million, I believe, in mid 2010, which were apparantly for origins only. Sales figures though do not soley dictate commercial success, which is why I have made no attempt to claim such a thing. Yet, commercial success neither deals with product equity, marketability of successors, consumer base expansion, which would be increadibly difficult to determine. As such the only reliable data they would have is revenue, which of course I would not argue over as I don't have that data. 

As to new fans coming in to replace old fans. How does the developer tell which sales are attributed to new fans and which are to the old? In doing so how does one determine if their fan base has grown.

The issue, though, is that if DA:O is not a commercial success, then DA:O fans (in a sense) are not a desirable audience. Because DA:O is not a game the company would want to make again, then fans of DA:O are not a target for the company. So losing 5,000,000 DA:O only fans, but gaining 1,000,000 DA2 fans, even if DA2 has less fans, still makes the DA2 fans "better" in the sense that they are commercially viable for the future.

Not that I buy this one bit. DA:O was clearly well received and had high expectations, and DA2 pretty clearly flubbled these based on user ratings... pretty much everywhere (including gamespot, where DA2 has favourable ratings... but not like DA:O).

Still, you can grow the business by losing 4/5th of your customers.  

Question, whats stopping those 1million vanishing when DA3 hits? If you already lose the 5, that 1 that was counting on could be a sign of decline for example imagine that 1 next time around becomes 300k which may end up getting worse. Doesn't mean that will happen but it's not out of realms of possiblity given decrease in sales between first and second which means less fans buying/not enough new ones created to replace, it's possible it could become a trend.

Like said not saying will happen but higher possibility after DA2 then after DAO.

[bEVEsthda]

Morroian wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

It's how many copies have been delivered to retailers, on these retailers expectations on how well the game will do.

EA gets paid for all of those copies, they are not held at retailers on consignment.

But I don't know exactly what deals are around here.

Yes, but the figure of interest, in regards of judging the game, is selling to customers.
And again, this is to a very large degree the accomplishment of the preceding game, just as the sell-in. So when DA2 has huge preorders, we can notch down that for DA:O, not for DA2. But also first and maybe second week sales are mostly an indicator of how well the predecessor was received. People have decided in advance they will buy this game, but only core enthusiasts will pre-order. Again we see DA2 do very well, again we must attribute that mainly to DA:O.
Then sales drop through the floor. The word is out. The sales are not sustained, despite lowered prices and sugared deals. This we can attribute to DA2.

[Zanallen]

billy the squid wrote...

Without figures on expenditure and revenue from EA, anything which does more than break even will be stated as commercially succesful in any PR statement to prevent dips in share price. Whether it is actually viable as a development is another matter entirely, particularly if the funds could have been used elsewhere generating a better cost to earnings ratio.

I believe it was Gaider who said that DA:O cost around 5 times as much as DA2.

[Monica21]

Gunderic wrote...
It did get a lot of DLC and an expansion pack, so I do believe there was a significant amount of interest/demand for the game.

To be frank, I'm not expecting Dragon Age 2 to get the same treatment.

If you go by the numbers on VGChartz then Awakening probably sold less than a million copies. The numbers for the PC sales aren't shown and I'm not sure why, but that's not much. But again, I have no idea what a "successful" expansion pack is. If it's about a quarter of the sales total of the original then maybe that's considered pretty good.

And since everyone's throwing around the VGChartz numbers, here they are:

Dragon Age: Origins (360) = 2.12
Dragon Age: Origins (PS3) = 1.30
Dragon Age: Origins (PC)  = 0.39
Total = 3.81

Dragon Age: Awakening (360) = 0.31
Dragon Age: Awakening (PS3) = 0.19
Total = 0.50

Dragon Age II (360) = 0.76
Dragon Age II (PS3) = 0.41
Dragon Age II (PC)  = 0.29
Total = 1.46

Modifié par Monica21, 11 août 2011 - 01:10 .

[Monica21]

Morroian wrote...
EA gets paid for all of those copies, they are not held at retailers on consignment.

If the copies are not sold then merchants can return them.

[Monica21]

Zanallen wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Without figures on expenditure and revenue from EA, anything which does more than break even will be stated as commercially succesful in any PR statement to prevent dips in share price. Whether it is actually viable as a development is another matter entirely, particularly if the funds could have been used elsewhere generating a better cost to earnings ratio.

I believe it was Gaider who said that DA:O cost around 5 times as much as DA2.

Possibly because it's a new IP they had to create from scratch. A lot of things in DA2 are holdovers from Origins, even things like idle animations. 

(Unrelated, but I'd really like a multi-quote feature on this forum. *sigh*)

Modifié par Monica21, 11 août 2011 - 01:14 .

[bEVEsthda]

Zanallen wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Without figures on expenditure and revenue from EA, anything which does more than break even will be stated as commercially succesful in any PR statement to prevent dips in share price. Whether it is actually viable as a development is another matter entirely, particularly if the funds could have been used elsewhere generating a better cost to earnings ratio.

I believe it was Gaider who said that DA:O cost around 5 times as much as DA2.

I don't think he ever said exactly that. He said something wordy and lengthy, from which some can infer that it cost 5 times as much. However, I interpreted the point as to be that it was impossible to sustain such a long development cycle as DA:O had. I don't see how that would be necessary though, and I can certainly sympathize with goals to shorten the cycle.