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Industrygamers interviews Ray Muzyka


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#176
LobselVith8

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txgoldrush wrote...

I do....

If Bartrand is spared, Varric has extra incentive to keeping the piece of the idol in Act III.


Which has no impact on Varric's sanity even if he keeps it, despite what we saw during the actual quest.

txgoldrush wrote...

If Keldar is killed in Magister's Orders, Lia shows up later.


Yet Vanard vanishes into thin air despite being a powerful political figure, and no one else in the Alienage seems to care about what happened to Kelder.

txgoldrush wrote...

And Bethany or Carver's fate once again has more impact on the plot than any DAO choice.


I felt sparing Loghain had more of an impact than Bethany or Carver's fate. Again, it's an issue of opinion.

txgoldrush wrote...

All WRPG plots are railroaded. And when is being reactive bad? Its not. How would he or she investigate Quentin's note?


You mean a handwritten note that's signed "O"? Fenris probably had more trouble investigating Tevinter for his Act III quest than Hawke would have faced.

txgoldrush wrote...

He or she finds the hatch in Act II because the killer leaves it exposed.


It's a wooden hatch that's closed when Hawke finds it. It's absurdly ridiculous that Hawke wasn't able to locate it.

txgoldrush wrote...

Hawke was also not focused on the hatch at that time, just Ninette's remains. Hawke doesn't need to be proactive when there is nothing to be proactive about. Hawke goal was to live in the city and provide for his or her family, nothing more. its events that prevent him or her from doing it.


Funny, I thought it was an RPG. I guess that's not the case if Hawke's a fixed character I have little control over.

#177
txgoldrush

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LobselVith8 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

I do....

If Bartrand is spared, Varric has extra incentive to keeping the piece of the idol in Act III.


a) Which has no impact on Varric's sanity even if he keeps it, despite what we saw during the actual quest.

txgoldrush wrote...

If Keldar is killed in Magister's Orders, Lia shows up later.


B) Yet Vanard vanishes into thin air despite being a powerful political figure, and no one else in the Alienage seems to care about what happened to Kelder.

txgoldrush wrote...

And Bethany or Carver's fate once again has more impact on the plot than any DAO choice.


c) I felt sparing Loghain had more of an impact than Bethany or Carver's fate. Again, it's an issue of opinion.

txgoldrush wrote...

All WRPG plots are railroaded. And when is being reactive bad? Its not. How would he or she investigate Quentin's note?


d) You mean a handwritten note that's signed "O"? Fenris probably had more trouble investigating Tevinter for his Act III quest than Hawke would have faced.

txgoldrush wrote...

He or she finds the hatch in Act II because the killer leaves it exposed.


e) It's a wooden hatch that's closed when Hawke finds it. It's absurdly ridiculous that Hawke wasn't able to locate it.

txgoldrush wrote...

Hawke was also not focused on the hatch at that time, just Ninette's remains. Hawke doesn't need to be proactive when there is nothing to be proactive about. Hawke goal was to live in the city and provide for his or her family, nothing more. its events that prevent him or her from doing it.


f) Funny, I thought it was an RPG. I guess that's not the case if Hawke's a fixed character I have little control over.


a) so the bare mention of it is a consquence...

B) However, Lia saying he needed to die is enough.

c) so a choice at the end of the game has more impact than a story altering chioce in Act I....ummm, no.

d) and how would Hawke investigate this without wild accusations? Its a dead end plain and simple.

e) Hawke was not looking for a hatch, he or she was looking for the womans remains, that snot incompetence.

f) By your logic, The Witcher games aren't RPGs either, or 70% of games in the genre. You have a too narrow view of RPGs. Not all RPGs have a silent customizable protagonist. Open your mind.

#178
AtreiyaN7

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mrcrusty wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...
snip


Don't get me wrong, I did agree with your end assertions that gameplay can change drastically within series and that a name change wouldn't have done anything to change opinions, just not with your specific examples. UU is not considered apart of Ultima proper and Fallout 3 has extenuating circumstances that makes it clearly not applicable to DA:O - DA 2.

To be fair though, more often than not, a sequel takes an existing foundation and builds on it rather making major changes to the franchise, which are almost always a huge risk. I mean, there wouldn't be an expectation in the first place if it wasn't commonplace. Changing the series is the exception, not the rule. So I don't think it's fair to lay the blame entirely on the consumer as BioWare appears to be doing, especially since many of the changes were flawed in execution. I think that the general expectation of it being a sequel, along with the horrible marketing gave people flawed or false impressions of the game, especially if they decided to skip the demo, or pre-order the game in advance. There are also those who buy because they put blind faith in BioWare to deliver (lol).

Now whether they were saavy consumers or not to pre-order or buy, it has led to lost enthusiasm over the series and lost pre-orders and/or buys for future Dragon Age products, ones that would've not been lost had the game been a "Dragon Age: Origins 2".

Maybe there's been enough enthusiasm and loyalty generated by new fans of Dragon Age 2 to make up for the lost ones, but we won't see any results of that until a third game comes out. Usually, the initial success (pre-orders) of a game comes from how well received the previous one was.


Oh, I know you did - and as I pointed out to clarify in the other post, even in the main Ultima series, there was a distinct and drastic change from Ultima VIII to Ultima IX - this was in the actual numbered series. Using Ultima VIII and Ultima IX, can you dispute that the direct sequel was different in almost every way from previous games in the main series? That's ignoring U:U, which likely had some influence on the changes in the last game (U9).

I don't think that BW is laying blame on the consumers - I mean, where does anyone actually say that? Where? Do people mean THIS?
  • Maybe some of that can be attributed to some of the fans of Dragon Age: Origins who were maybe expecting a similar experience
So, Muzyka posits that some people probably expected a similar experience to DA:O - is he somehow wrong? Is it untrue? I don't think he's saying/implying that people who expected DA:O 2 were at fault somehow. For the general gaming public and/or fans who didn't follow development very closely, it's probably true that the marketing wasn't effective and that it was in part responsible for subsequent disappointment for those who were taken unaware. What Muzyka said does not seem to constitute "laying the blame" on the customers/fans.

What I'm a bit agog at is the fact that a lot of the people in here complaining that they were all "deceived" are the very people who have followed the development of DA2 obsessively and actually knew what they were getting into - or sure should have. I've seen them here posting during development. They've heard the podcasts/read transcripts, saw the reveal of the intent icons, the companion armor, the demo, etc in all likelihood. They were aware of combat changes (which was really more a matter of speed and visuals, since functionally it worked just like DA:O with the ability to pause and issues commands/program your tactics).

Those particular people can't seriously claim that they were in any way deceived about what it was going to be like in my opinion. As for drawing in new fans, I'm sure that they did draw in new people; the problem is that it didn't appeal to enough of the DA:O fans because of the radical changes. I'm guessing that based on the article, the intention in DA3 is probably to achieve balance/harmony and take what was good in DA2 and DA:O and integrate them per what they appear to be doing in ME3 (drawing lessons from ME2, listening to feedback and working more RPG elements in).

As for DA2's changes, I liked many of them - including the move from a silent protagonist to a voiced one. What I had issues with were the recycled environments and uninspired FedEx quests to name two things that I wasn't keen on, but Legacy seems to indicate that they have taken quite a bit of the feedback here into account. They're not ignoring complaints, but they have a vision of the direction that they want to go in. Whether or not any future DA games end up being satisfactory hybrids that can attract old customers and whatever new ones they may have gained by experimenting in DA2 remains to be seen.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 11 août 2011 - 08:35 .


#179
LobselVith8

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There's a difference between being presented with a fixed character and being asked to create a character who is then given a fixed personality, with all your dialogue choices ignored with misleading dialogue choices.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 11 août 2011 - 08:27 .


#180
txgoldrush

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LobselVith8 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Your decisions don't matter except for ending cards and pets in the final battle and really it is the same as DAII, except DAII has a more personal focus, is sibling alive and where, who does Hawke side with, is Fenriyal in Tevinter, a Transquil, or a Dreamwalker, etc. In fact, whether to take you sibling into the Deep Roads HAS MORE PLOT AND PERSONAL IMPACT THAN ANY CHOICE IN DAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Especially if you have the Legacy DLC.


a) First off, you can hear the casteless discuss the change that their people are experiencing with King Bhelen at the helm of Orzammar as soon as The Warden chooses him as the next King, you can visually see Redcliffe either devastated or the village intact, and the Brecillian Forest will be populated by either elves or werewolves. It's not like choices don't matter in Origins.

Also, I don't agree that the Deep Roads quest was more personal and had more impact than any choice in Origins. I felt more at the Landsmeet when The Warden spared Loghain at the cost of his friendship with the newly crowned King Alistair than I did with the plight of [spoiler]. You may feel differently, but it's certainly an issue of opinion, not fact.

txgoldrush wrote...

And when does a WRPG protagonist have to be the sole mover of the events of the story? DAII breaks that cliche by letting other characters play significant roles and make choices too.


B) By making it's protagonist seem lazy and incompetent.

txgoldrush wrote...

Its far more realistic that way. in fact Hawke is FAR MORE HUMAN if things are out of his or her control and he or she has decide how to make do. Why does an RPG world have to bow to his or her whem. That is the problem with WRPGs, the protagonist is way too powerful and seems less of a character and more like a god because of it.


c) How is he more human when Hawke does nothing? I think he would be far more human if he actually seemed to care about what was going on around him, rather than acting like he's been in a coma all this time.

txgoldrush wrote...

Ander's story....does the plot revolve around him? No...then its not Anders story. Just because they make a significant impact doesn't mean its their story.


d) Hawke is pretty much an errand boy throughout all three Acts, and I felt like Anders had more of a connection to the story than Hawke did.


a) I can empty the Dalish Camp in DAII from a choice I make, your point? Those are immediate consquences, not plot altering ones or delayed consquences.In fact DAII would be much better at delayed consquences if it weren't for DAO's shallow ending cards. Choice and consquence is shallow in both games compared to a Witcher or a Tactics Ogre.

So a sibling living or dying has less impact than a choice at the end? Ummm no. Also DAII's equal was Anders and Sebastian at the end. Sebastian has a far better reason to bolt the party than Alistair does, the whiner who can't see the biig picture if Loghain is spared.

B) so lets have the character investigate dead ends...

c) why? his or her focus is survival of  him or her and his or her family and so is Varric. Hawke has no other agenda other than normalcy.

d) You really know nothing about plots then....a plot can only be good to you if it sticks to WRPG dogma...lol  Anders does something significant, yes, but so does Varric and Aveline. In fact, Varric has a far better connection to the plot than Anders does as the clear duetragonist of the game. Anders is not needed to find the lyrium idol, Anders doesn't provoke the Qunari, all he does is one action at the end, thats all.

#181
txgoldrush

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LobselVith8 wrote...

There's a difference between being presented with a fixed character and being asked to create a character who is then given a fixed personality, with all your dialogue choices ignored with misleading dialogue choices.


those are not dialgue choices as much as strains of thought...in fact the dialogue wheel allows for more subtle and natural language then what a dialogue tree does.

And Hawke's personality is far from fixed.

#182
Addai

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txgoldrush wrote...
a) I can empty the Dalish Camp in DAII from a choice I make, your point?

That's not a player choice.  It didn't have a "let's fight" icon on those dialogue options.  It's a consequence, but a meaningless and arbitrary one.

Modifié par Addai67, 11 août 2011 - 09:59 .


#183
alex90c

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Are you implying that fighting nutjob 1 and then nutjob 2, with waves in the middle, was satisfying?

Of course I would have taken that option, and it would have been 10 times more satisfying than the joke we got later.
The outcome would have been the same anyhow.


It was fantastic. Honestly. Being able to button bash my way through faceless enemies, even more demons (who seem to be never ending in this game) and the fact that when you storm the Gallows all of the Templars meant to be attacking suddenly vanish made for a truly awesome experience.

It's a shame you didn't like wave after wave of paratroopers, I adored it.

--

Oh, and the whole DA2 lets you make personal choices excuse is just bullsh*t, it's just a way of hiding the fact that the game doesn't let you make any RELEVANT decisions.

Case in point:

Petrice: Oh I am a slimy, slimy woman. Do my quest for me ... Serah Hawke, we are all friends here.

*hissssss*

Hawke: Nah.

Petrice: Very well, but I'm sure you need money for your expedition (note: player has 71 sovereigns) so the offer will always stand.

Player: haha f*ck you b!tch, time to go the deeproads!

Varric: yo Hawke uh yo need to do stuff yo

Player : FFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

Modifié par alex90c, 11 août 2011 - 10:12 .


#184
Morroian

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alex90c wrote...

Oh, and the whole DA2 lets you make personal choices excuse is just bullsh*t, it's just a way of hiding the fact that the game doesn't let you make any RELEVANT decisions.

As opposed to DAO's make a decision and see the consequences in an epilogue slide.

#185
Morroian

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LobselVith8 wrote...

There's a difference between being presented with a fixed character and being asked to create a character who is then given a fixed personality, with all your dialogue choices ignored with misleading dialogue choices.

Neither of which applies to DA2.

#186
alex90c

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Morroian wrote...

alex90c wrote...

Oh, and the whole DA2 lets you make personal choices excuse is just bullsh*t, it's just a way of hiding the fact that the game doesn't let you make any RELEVANT decisions.

As opposed to DAO's make a decision and see the consequences in an epilogue slide.


Let me repeat.

DA:O maintains a very good illusion of choice.

DA2 whacks you repeatedly over the head to remind you nothing you do will change anything. RP-wise, the decision-making in DA:O is great, plus the epilogue slides give it all closure, of course in-game the decisions on the whole tend to not change much. But my fundamental point is that DA:O maintains the illusion, DA2 doesn't.

#187
Bryy_Miller

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alex90c wrote...

Morroian wrote...

alex90c wrote...

Oh, and the whole DA2 lets you make personal choices excuse is just bullsh*t, it's just a way of hiding the fact that the game doesn't let you make any RELEVANT decisions.

As opposed to DAO's make a decision and see the consequences in an epilogue slide.


Let me repeat.

DA:O maintains a very good illusion of choice.

DA2 whacks you repeatedly over the head to remind you nothing you do will change anything. RP-wise, the decision-making in DA:O is great, plus the epilogue slides give it all closure, of course in-game the decisions on the whole tend to not change much. But my fundamental point is that DA:O maintains the illusion, DA2 doesn't.


I sort of agree with this. I feel that if Varric's ending monologues were more varied, it would have worked well like in Origins. As of now, the only real changes in his ending monologue are:

1) Hawke is viscount.
2) Hawke ran to the hills.
3) LI.
4) Sebastian returned with an army.

#188
LobselVith8

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I told you that I find more impact from the decision with Loghain than I did with the sibling in the Deep Roads, and that it was a matter of opinion, txgoldrush. Even Mike Laidlaw addressed that he acknowledged the issues with the narrative and the significance of choice in Dragon Age 2. I wanted Dragon Age 2 to improve upon what I found in Origins, and I don't honestly see any improvement with a lackluster protagonist who doesn't say what I want him to say because the dialogue options don't accurately reflect what's listed and who seems to be so lackluster that he can't even investigate the death of [spoiler] despite finding evidence of an accomplice.

Hawke's story isn't the "rise to power" that it was advertised to be by advertisements, the prologue in Lothering, or the creators of Dragon Age 2. Kirkwall also isn't shaped by every action taken by Hawke despite what the creators had initially said. Hawke isn't the "most important person in Thedas" either, and I find him to be a repellant, incompetent, and very forgettable protagonist who seems to cause more damage than he solves (especially given the ending to Legacy). You're welcome to disagree, of course, but I doubt we'll come to a consensus on this issue.

#189
OdanUrr

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It would seem that yet again the discussion has turned to the unavoidable subjects of choice, marketing, old vs. new fans. I read the interview that led to all this, it said suprisingly little and nothing that hasn't being said before, this leads me to believe that "recently" wasn't actually that recent, but I'll let it slide. I'm starting to believe that articles like this come up from time to time to remind us just how controversial DA2 was. Guys, we remember, we have a good memory for controversy. If an article doesn't add anything new to the debate, it's pretty much pointless all around, but that's just my opinion.

On the matter of choice. I've said it before and I'll say it again: there is choice in both games. Whether they're meaningful or not is a matter of opinion because they're meaningful or not to you. Period. I've seen, however, many people putting forward the issue of "illusion of choice" and how it may have worked better in DAO than in DA2. Again, it's a matter of opinion. Personally, I agree. I found that DA2 seemed to "beat me over the head" with the fact that my choices seemed to matter very little in the grand scheme of things. I found it thoroughly unconvincing that every single member of my family had to die to generate drama and a sense of attachment (txgoldrush, don't even bother arguing that not all family members have to die, I've played enough times to know this is also true). I actually found it comedic. Don't even get me started on mages vs. templars. But, ultimately, whether the illusion works or not depends on whether you buy the story or not. If you do, problem solved.

Both RM and posters here have argued that Bioware took a risk by trying something new and that it was the right direction. That the "hero's journey" storyline is getting old fast. On that last point, I'd argue that it's not a problem with the hero's journey per se but of how it's delivered. The tale of a man that's overwhelmed by circumstance could prove to be an interesting storyline for a game, indeed some books/films deliver on this premise, but since a game is more interactive a medium (something that was argued by another poster here), what results in the character being driven by the player, it stands to lose credibility awfully fast. DA2 does not fully deliver on this premise, leaving the player feeling that it was actually the game's limitations rather than circumstance what led to the series of events that transpired. Other games impose time restrictions to take away some of the character's freedom in an attempt to explain away its linearity (e.g.: The Witcher 2). By developing its story over the course of ten years, DA2 took yet another risk that, to my mind, exposed this problem.

Having said that, DA2 tried many new things that were actually better than in its predecessor, there's no question about it. The issue is whether or not it had to change everything. Personally, I think that decision may have done more harm than good. The other issue here is whether the harm's short-term or long-term, and only time will tell.

Some other time I'll address marketing and old vs. new fans. This will do for now. On a parting note, however, I'd like to point out that CAPS are never a good way to get your point across... ever... for real. When you resort to CAPS, your arguments lose their strength, and any further arguments are "tainted" by this reality. Furthermore, saying things like, "ummm, no" seems a bit contemptuous (yes, txgoldrush, I'm addressing you, but this goes for everyone). Everyone is entitled to their opinion. If you feel perhaps that opinion is somehow flawed, you can argue that case in a respectful manner, but ultimately recognising that the other party may not agree with you in the end. These types of discussions tend to be the most productive and we are all the better for them.

Modifié par OdanUrr, 12 août 2011 - 02:21 .


#190
Dragoonlordz

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OdanUrr wrote...

I've seen, however, many people putting forward the issue of "illusion of choice" and how it may have worked better in DAO than in DA2. Again, it's a matter of opinion. Personally, I agree. I found that DA2 seemed to "beat me over the head" with the fact that my choices seemed to matter very little in the grand scheme of things. I found it thoroughly unconvincing that every single member of my family had to die to generate drama and a sense of attachment (txgoldrush, don't even bother arguing that not all family members have to die, I've played enough times to know this is also true). I actually found it comedic. Don't even get me started on mages vs. templars. But, ultimately, whether the illusion works or not depends on whether you buy the story or not. If you do, problem solved.


It's not just about the impact of those choices between two games with one having more impact than the other but also about how they were implemented. DA2 the choices were very much more bottlenecked and direction was by far a lot more forced in what got picked compared to DAO. I have given examples before about picking choices and being over-ridden by companions or NPCs or plain ignoring of your choice which happens a few times which again I have given examples of before. This was how DA2 was made and was intentional even though badly done at same time, the whole game is about being powerless, inevitability or swimming against the tide imho and this came through very much through in the aspect of choices being ignored even when given the opportunity to say no to something then happens anyways or your choice is over-ridden.

Some examples of this are flemmeths quest at start, some of merrills quests, entering the city, sister patrice moments and especially around the the end of game. It's bad design to give you choice of saying no to something or refuse to do something, say will kill or stop someone or even choose a side or option given to you then it is literally taken away from you specifically after making the choice offered to you already through dialogue. Illusion of choice in DA2 became less about using imagination and more about making excuses for why things happened with bottlenecking playing biggest part which in itself became a flaw because of how badly was implemented.

While both games allowed choices the second title was designed to give the feeling of powerlessness akin to swept up in events unfolding, the biggest difference is how badly it was done in DA2 compared to DAO as it is obvious for those who don't spend all their time making up excuses for why when you get given the option it is snatched away from you either by NPCs or by plain poor design.

This has no effect on some people who like playing DA2 irrespective of that aspect but the difference between DAO choices and DA2 is simply quality, DAO was higher quality than DA2 in this regard; it was done better. This is my personal opinion and people are free to feel different but I have no intention of being baited or arguing with anyone about it which if they disagree then I hereby already state I agree to disagree regardless of if you also agree to that.

P.s.

Both RM and posters here have argued that Bioware took a risk by trying something new and that it was the right direction. That the "hero's journey" storyline is getting old fast.


Don't kid yourself on this issue, progression through medium of acts has been done before vast amount of times, the same applies for main protaganists rising to power and also two sides of a conflict with fair amount picking sides. None of it is new and all of it has been done before, the only thing can really claim if lucky is it's new to 'Bioware's' usage in their titles.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 12 août 2011 - 04:12 .


#191
Realmzmaster

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Everything that has been stated is a matter of opinion. I enjoyed both games and that to me is all they are games. The games provide me with entertainment. I had fun with DAO when it came out. I am having fun with DA2. DA2 story resonates with me more than DAO. That is my opinion.

What many of the gamers on this forum are afraid of it that their direction will not be the one Bioware takes.

The ones who wanted DA2 and any new game in the DA franchise to be in the DAO style versus the ones who like the new direction of DA2 and want future games to be more in that direction.
Bioware could try to straddle the void and make DA3 the best of both worlds (whatever that means) which could turn out to be great or a dismal failure pleasing no one.

The point is that one of the groups is going to be unhappy or maybe both.

I will give my personal opinion. I never expected DA2 to be like DAO nor did I want it to be. I wanted another tale in the Dragon Age universe. As far as I was concerned the warden's story was over. My warden had saved the world now bring me something different. I felt the same way after Ultima III. I have saved the world again. I wanted Origin to give me something different and Origin delivered with Ultima IV which was different in scope than Ultima III.

I like PST (Planescape Torment) because it was different. It was not about saving the world. It was about finding who and what you are. It was a story that did not rely on combat like DAO or DA2. In fact it was different from 99% of the CRPGs out there.

I like that difference. That is my personal opinion. I had fun with DA2 even though it was a flawed product. Others did not receive that enjoyment and I respect that point.

Illusion of choice is subjective. Many here felt that DAO gave the better illusion of choice. I felt neither game did it a good job of it. In fact all the CRPGs I have played has lacked in this regard.

If the game has a story railroading is inevitable, because every story has a beginning, middle and end. Railroading is done to keep the story that is being told moving.

In both games the main protagonist is an errand boy. In most CRPGS the main protagonist acts as an errand boy. Every CRPG has fetch quests and quests whose only purpose is gain experience to build up the character or party.

Each forum mate has their opinion. I respect that opinion. I do not have to agree with that opinion. The developers do not have to agree with that opinion.

Many on the forum are upset that Brent Knowles left and say that Mike Laidlaw screwed up the DAO vision. Well Brent Knowles left for whatever reasons he had. Some forum mates state that he and management had a disagreement on direction. Well guess what, Mr. Knowles is the employee. This means that he can either follow directions or remove himself from the situation. He choose to remove himself. Mike Laidlaw was given the project. Mike Laidlaw had his own vision whether you agree with it or not. He was willing to follow orders.

So you can all beat up on Mike Laidlaw's vision. He was being a good employee. The same with everyone working for Bioware. The same as any employee working on a job. You get orders (as long as they are legal). You either follow them or leave or get fired.

I do not begrudge Mike Laidlaw for taking the opportunity. Everything I have said here is my opinion.

So you can call me a DA2 liker, a person with low standards or whatever else you wish to say. I paid my money. I got my enjoyment. I had fun that it what matters to me.

Some of the gamers did not have fun, for that I am sorry.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 12 août 2011 - 06:03 .


#192
txgoldrush

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Addai67 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...
a) I can empty the Dalish Camp in DAII from a choice I make, your point?

That's not a player choice.  It didn't have a "let's fight" icon on those dialogue options.  It's a consequence, but a meaningless and arbitrary one.


Annihilating the Dalish Camp can fail the Murder of Crows quest.

#193
txgoldrush

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LobselVith8 wrote...

I told you that I find more impact from the decision with Loghain than I did with the sibling in the Deep Roads, and that it was a matter of opinion, txgoldrush. Even Mike Laidlaw addressed that he acknowledged the issues with the narrative and the significance of choice in Dragon Age 2. I wanted Dragon Age 2 to improve upon what I found in Origins, and I don't honestly see any improvement with a lackluster protagonist who doesn't say what I want him to say because the dialogue options don't accurately reflect what's listed and who seems to be so lackluster that he can't even investigate the death of [spoiler] despite finding evidence of an accomplice.

Hawke's story isn't the "rise to power" that it was advertised to be by advertisements, the prologue in Lothering, or the creators of Dragon Age 2. Kirkwall also isn't shaped by every action taken by Hawke despite what the creators had initially said. Hawke isn't the "most important person in Thedas" either, and I find him to be a repellant, incompetent, and very forgettable protagonist who seems to cause more damage than he solves (especially given the ending to Legacy). You're welcome to disagree, of course, but I doubt we'll come to a consensus on this issue.


That is the entire point of the game, Hawke's involvement in the events of the story make things worse despite his or her good intentions if she has them. Its a common theme of the game. Its not that the protagonist is stupid and really Hawke is far from stupid for the most part, its that the elements of darkness are far more complex to be easily defeated. This is why DAII is the darkest Bioware game they have ever created. This is the opposite of the pukingly cliched hero defeats evil and everything is good for goodie goodie characters that is Origins. Even The Witcher 2 is similiar in that Geralts involvement makes thing worse no matter what he does.

And not everything has to follow WRPG dogma, the hero doesn't have to make everything right if he is good, he doesn't have to be the most powerful character that is the only one to make decisions, he doesn't have to be an empty player character, he doesn't have to shift worlds...

Truly WRPG fans have become just as bad if not worse than JRPG fans when it comes to resisting change. That is one reason why JRPGs have declined on consoles, they rehash their elements and their plots.

Modifié par txgoldrush, 12 août 2011 - 07:22 .


#194
alex90c

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txgoldrush wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I told you that I find more impact from the decision with Loghain than I did with the sibling in the Deep Roads, and that it was a matter of opinion, txgoldrush. Even Mike Laidlaw addressed that he acknowledged the issues with the narrative and the significance of choice in Dragon Age 2. I wanted Dragon Age 2 to improve upon what I found in Origins, and I don't honestly see any improvement with a lackluster protagonist who doesn't say what I want him to say because the dialogue options don't accurately reflect what's listed and who seems to be so lackluster that he can't even investigate the death of [spoiler] despite finding evidence of an accomplice.

Hawke's story isn't the "rise to power" that it was advertised to be by advertisements, the prologue in Lothering, or the creators of Dragon Age 2. Kirkwall also isn't shaped by every action taken by Hawke despite what the creators had initially said. Hawke isn't the "most important person in Thedas" either, and I find him to be a repellant, incompetent, and very forgettable protagonist who seems to cause more damage than he solves (especially given the ending to Legacy). You're welcome to disagree, of course, but I doubt we'll come to a consensus on this issue.


That is the entire point of the game, Hawke's involvement in the events of the story make things worse despite his or her good intentions if she has them. Its a common theme of the game. Its not that the protagonist is stupid and really Hawke is far from stupid for the most part, its that the elements of darkness are far more complex to be easily defeated. This is why DAII is the darkest Bioware game they have ever created. This is the opposite of the pukingly cliched hero defeats evil and everything is good for goodie goodie characters that is Origins. Even The Witcher 2 is similiar in that Geralts involvement makes thing worse no matter what he does.

And not everything has to follow WRPG dogma, the hero doesn't have to make everything right if he is good, he doesn't have to be the most powerful character that is the only one to make decisions, he doesn't have to be an empty player character, he doesn't have to shift worlds...

Truly WRPG fans have become just as bad if not worse than JRPG fans when it comes to resisting change. That is one reason why JRPGs have declined on consoles, they rehash their elements and their plots.


See, now it's arguments like these which are just hilariously retarded.

THE LACK OF CHOICE IS INTENDED GUISE!!!!

"the game will shape itself around your every choice" obviously meant "you are unable to change anything" :innocent:

#195
Guest_Fandango_*

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Leave it out Ray, Dragon Age 2 is a stain on Biowares reputation and you know it.

#196
Out to Lunch

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Realmzmaster wrote...

Everything that has been stated is a matter of opinion. I enjoyed both games and that to me is all they are games. The games provide me with entertainment. I had fun with DAO when it came out. I am having fun with DA2. DA2 story resonates with me more than DAO. That is my opinion.

What many of the gamers on this forum are afraid of it that their direction will not be the one Bioware takes.

The ones who wanted DA2 and any new game in the DA franchise to be in the DAO style versus the ones who like the new direction of DA2 and want future games to be more in that direction.
Bioware could try to straddle the void and make DA3 the best of both worlds (whatever that means) which could turn out to be great or a dismal failure pleasing no one.

The point is that one of the groups is going to be unhappy or maybe both.

I will give my personal opinion. I never expected DA2 to be like DAO nor did I want it to be. I wanted another tale in the Dragon Age universe. As far as I was concerned the warden's story was over. My warden had saved the world now bring me something different. I felt the same way after Ultima III. I have saved the world again. I wanted Origin to give me something different and Origin delivered with Ultima IV which was different in scope than Ultima III.

I like PST (Planescape Torment) because it was different. It was not about saving the world. It was about finding who and what you are. It was a story that did not rely on combat like DAO or DA2. In fact it was different from 99% of the CRPGs out there.

I like that difference. That is my personal opinion. I had fun with DA2 even though it was a flawed product. Others did not receive that enjoyment and I respect that point.

Illusion of choice is subjective. Many here felt that DAO gave the better illusion of choice. I felt neither game did it a good job of it. In fact all the CRPGs I have played has lacked in this regard.

If the game has a story railroading is inevitable, because every story has a beginning, middle and end. Railroading is done to keep the story that is being told moving.

In both games the main protagonist is an errand boy. In most CRPGS the main protagonist acts as an errand boy. Every CRPG has fetch quests and quests whose only purpose is gain experience to build up the character or party.

Each forum mate has their opinion. I respect that opinion. I do not have to agree with that opinion. The developers do not have to agree with that opinion.

Many on the forum are upset that Brent Knowles left and say that Mike Laidlaw screwed up the DAO vision. Well Brent Knowles left for whatever reasons he had. Some forum mates state that he and management had a disagreement on direction. Well guess what, Mr. Knowles is the employee. This means that he can either follow directions or remove himself from the situation. He choose to remove himself. Mike Laidlaw was given the project. Mike Laidlaw had his own vision whether you agree with it or not. He was willing to follow orders.

So you can all beat up on Mike Laidlaw's vision. He was being a good employee. The same with everyone working for Bioware. The same as any employee working on a job. You get orders (as long as they are legal). You either follow them or leave or get fired.

I do not begrudge Mike Laidlaw for taking the opportunity. Everything I have said here is my opinion.

So you can call me a DA2 liker, a person with low standards or whatever else you wish to say. I paid my money. I got my enjoyment. I had fun that it what matters to me.

Some of the gamers did not have fun, for that I am sorry.


Well put!


There comes a point when complaining loses it's credibility and simply becomes annoying noise. This board passed that point a long time ago. I doubt Bioware is still listening. Why should they? People have been complaining about the same things for 5 months straight. Bioware probably feels like they've heard it all, taken what they needed from it and moved on with their work.

We have now been told by most of the Bioware people that post here that the DA2 model is the direction they are going in. They will be continually tweaking and upgrading but it's the direction they intend to stick to. If that is not something you're interested in then there is no shame in moving on to a different game/series. If you think it might work out if they just fix certain things (which you've stated many times on here) then take a break from the complaining and wait to see what comes of it.

Really, it'd just be nice to not have every thread derailed with negativity.

#197
dheer

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AtreiyaN7 wrote...
 I'm guessing that based on the article, the intention in DA3 is probably to achieve balance/harmony and take what was good in DA2 and DA:O and integrate them per what they appear to be doing in ME3 (drawing lessons from ME2, listening to feedback and working more RPG elements in).

That sounds good to me, but how can that be done when the quote below is what M. Laidlaw thinks about it?

...this is establishing a solid foundation that keeps a lot, in fact almost everything I want to keep about Origins, but still has tons of room to grow and, frankly, a more viable future for the franchise.

His comment about Origins seems to conflict with what most are saying about the future of the DA franchise. PR-wise, or not.

Modifié par dheer, 12 août 2011 - 12:36 .


#198
Wozearly

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txgoldrush wrote...

That is the entire point of the game, Hawke's involvement in the events of the story make things worse despite his or her good intentions if she has them. Its a common theme of the game. Its not that the protagonist is stupid and really Hawke is far from stupid for the most part, its that the elements of darkness are far more complex to be easily defeated. This is why DAII is the darkest Bioware game they have ever created.


Interestingly, although I suppose KOTOR2 wasn't technically a Bioware game, this had exactly the same effect if you went light side. You tried to do the right thing for the galaxy and ended up being castigted for consistently making things worse and bringing down the violent retribution the jedi were specifically trying to avoid.

What goes around comes around, it seems. :innocent:

#199
Wozearly

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Out to Lunch wrote...

There comes a point when complaining loses it's credibility and simply becomes annoying noise. This board passed that point a long time ago. I doubt Bioware is still listening. Why should they? People have been complaining about the same things for 5 months straight. Bioware probably feels like they've heard it all, taken what they needed from it and moved on with their work.

We have now been told by most of the Bioware people that post here that the DA2 model is the direction they are going in. They will be continually tweaking and upgrading but it's the direction they intend to stick to.

Really, it'd just be nice to not have every thread derailed with negativity.


True, but when you get someone like Ray Muzyka doing an interview and the immediate and overwhelming response is a torrent of negative sniping on the site hosting the interview and then here on the forums, that's...well, that's quite concerning really.

Granted, some of the things said were like a red rag to a bull for certain fan groups, but with this coming on the back of a genuinely constructive thread with Mike Laidlaw participating (and a notable absence of people demanding his sacking), its pretty surprising.

I wonder if the reaction would have been less fierce if he'd said something like: "We believe the changes to DA2 were the right direction to take in the round, but we will naturally be looking at whether there are specific things that we should change as part of future DLC and, should it happen, DA3"

Absolutely nothing that hasn't been said before, but a much more conciliatory tone that wouldn't perhaps have sent so many people climbing the walls in frustration feeling that they haven't been heard.

Modifié par Wozearly, 12 août 2011 - 12:58 .


#200
aries1001

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I have played the game now for about 60 hours (50 hours actually, because I had to start the Deep Roads expedition over three times to kill the....rock wraith....). And let me be clear: I like this game, this DA2.

Reading the comments when the game first came out, I expected a nearly unplayable game, a story that doesn't matter at all, where the conflict between templars and mages aren't explained well. And all the other stuiff people complained about. And what did I find; (I play with patch 1.03) - I've found a game that is playable, a game that has the best characters, the best followers, the best dialogues, and the best story yet, in any Bioware game - or in any rpg (well, besided PS Torment, maybe).

Let me be yet more clear: The story in DA2 is not as easy or as straightforward in DA:O; DA2'story is more complicated than DA:O. In DA:O, you job was to rally together four armies to defeat the ancient evil, joining an ancient sceret organization. Why - because it is written and it is your destiny or you just need to. In DA2, your goals and purposes are motivated by your (Hawke's) personal feelings, emotions and actions. From the start of the game to the middle to the end of the game, it seems.

I agree that the rise to power could have been explained better; I think it refers to the the fact that Hawke is the first person in Kirkwall to rise above her station by her own means, not because of some connections, be they friendships or political allies. And yes, the whole point of DA2 is that no matter what Hawke does not make the situation any better; in fact it gets worse. But how much worse would it have been, if Hawke hadn't been there? In TW1, the elves and dwarves are not much better of at the end of the game than they were before; in fact, Geralt's actions could even have made their situations worse.

Both games, DA2 and DA:O are linear games because they end, both sare stories that have an ending and as such there need to be a railroading at least on one point, the point of no return. Within that frame you're free to go wherever you want, do quests when you want to do them, Bioware's games are not sandboxgames like Oblivion or Skyrim, they are games that tell a story. And I, for one, would like to see Bioware continue to do games this way.

I'm not blind to the fact that DA2 has it flaws, too. Most noticeably the combat that way too often comes in waves and phases; and seems to be more suited for an MMO than a singleplayer game...