144 réponses à ce sujet

[dmtzcain]

Seems like a paradox,
either listen to fan feedback or support their design ideas. The whole “we
are listening” might be a marketing message for the DLC to sell well.

Fans are
right | Designers are right | They can’t both be right.

Here is a
link to the article.

[Melca36]

Link?

[hoorayforicecream]

Are you trying to say that there are no fans that support their design ideas? Because I'm pretty sure that isn't true.

[Realmzmaster]

The designers can listen to the fan base that does not mean they are governed by the fan base. Also when the fan base has conflicting ideas and wants which part are the designers suppose to listen to? The designers are the ones who make the game. We the fan base can then decide how well they did.

Everybody's ideas and wants are not going to be incorporated especially if they are contradictory. Many of the fan base seem to think that the designers are not listening if they do not see the implementation of their wants and ideas.

Listening and implementing are two different actions. I can listen to what you have to say, but I do not think it will work it will not be implemented.

As far as DA2, the developers did listen to some of the criticism of DAO. Some of the changes in DA2 were do to fan base input. The problem lies in that they may have went to far and the implementation left much to be desired.

Yes both can be right and both can be wrong. it is not a zero sum game.

[dmtzcain]

Duh. Here is the link =P

http://www.industryg...from-core-fans/

[exskeeny]

oh look another one of these

[element eater]

well I don't think one cant exist with the other all id really say is not to develop a game based of in game data they collect that way lies trouble

that said these interviews always make me cringe. Not sure why it seems like such an alien concept that fans of the first game should have expected a similar experiance from its sequel. I just dont think it requires attention to be drawn to it

Modifié par element eater, 10 août 2011 - 07:42 .

[Stanley Woo]

Some fans are also under the mistaken assumption that they are the ones creating the game, and assuming any kind of risk. They are not. Whether the game succeeds or fails, they won't have spent millions of dollars, won't have spent hundreds of hours of work, have no financial or professional stake in the project, and aren't responsible for any of the content. All they've done is make a bunch of suggestions based on their preferences.

For a customer, there is only gain. For a company, it's work and risk and reputation at stake. so yes, we are definitely listening to feedback, because you guys represent a good cross-section of fans, you're very vocal and you have some great ideas. But no, there is no contract or obligation to implement your suggestions. At best, we can promise only to hear the feedback and think about it along with the hundreds of other suggestions we get. It doesn't mean we don't love you.

[IanPolaris]

Without fans and if you dump on old fans (which IMO you've done with DA) you turn customers into people like me: Ex-Customers.

Without your customers, you aren't in business which makes the customer right. Always.

-Polaris

[King Cousland]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Some fans are also under the mistaken assumption that they are the ones creating the game, and assuming any kind of risk. They are not. Whether the game succeeds or fails, they won't have spent millions of dollars, won't have spent hundreds of hours of work, have no financial or professional stake in the project, and aren't responsible for any of the content. All they've done is make a bunch of suggestions based on their preferences.

For a customer, there is only gain. For a company, it's work and risk and reputation at stake. so yes, we are definitely listening to feedback, because you guys represent a good cross-section of fans, you're very vocal and you have some great ideas. But no, there is no contract or obligation to implement your suggestions. At best, we can promise only to hear the feedback and think about it along with the hundreds of other suggestions we get. It doesn't mean we don't love you.

Thanks, Stanley. It's really nice to know that you don't care about the £40 I spent on DAII which I didn't feel I recieved value for money. It's also so lovely of you to trivialise the "bunch of suggestions" that dissapointed fans make. Guess you won't care about people illegally downloading DAIII?

It's the guys like you and Gaider who need to be muzzled. 

[King Cousland]

IanPolaris wrote...

Without fans and if you dump on old fans (which IMO you've done with DA) you turn customers into people like me: Ex-Customers.

Without your customers, you aren't in business which makes the customer right. Always.

-Polaris

Well said sir.

[Stanley Woo]

element eater wrote...

well I don't think one cant exist with the other all id really say is not to develop a game based of in game data they collect that way lies trouble

Wait, so you want us to not base our development decisions on what people actually are seen to do in game?

that said these interviews always make me cringe. Not sure why it seems like such an alien concept that fans of the first game should have expected a similar experiance from its sequel. Or the fact that some people have justified reasons to dislike it beyond just that its differant.

It's not an alien concept. We understand many of the reasons some folks didn't like DA2, and we have acknowledged that. but not saying it all the time in every interview does not mean we have forgotten it. At some point, we'd also like to talk about how well we did some things in the game, you know. We happen to be proud of the work we do (and some of the community does as well) and mentioning that does not negate any of the problems we have talked about.

We have also admitted and talked about how we should have done a better job at managing players' expectation when it came to just how different DA2 was going to be from DA:O. That does not mean there weren't good things in the game.

So let's not go crazy and get huffy whenever we do an interview or talk about the game and mention the good parts of it. We do know and freely admit there were problems, but it would be a little unreasonable to stand over us at every interview with your arms crossed until we admit the problems all the time.

[Bekkael]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Some fans are also under the mistaken assumption that they are the ones creating the game, and assuming any kind of risk. They are not. Whether the game succeeds or fails, they won't have spent millions of dollars, won't have spent hundreds of hours of work, have no financial or professional stake in the project, and aren't responsible for any of the content. All they've done is make a bunch of suggestions based on their preferences.

For a customer, there is only gain. For a company, it's work and risk and reputation at stake. so yes, we are definitely listening to feedback, because you guys represent a good cross-section of fans, you're very vocal and you have some great ideas. But no, there is no contract or obligation to implement your suggestions. At best, we can promise only to hear the feedback and think about it along with the hundreds of other suggestions we get. It doesn't mean we don't love you.

Very true. It's impossible to please everyone, that much is certain. I appreciate the fact that BW is willing to take risks and try new things, rather than always sticking with an older and possibly "safer" formula.

Folks that don't like the direction the DA franchise has taken are always free to play/purchase other games. I, for one, will eagerly anticipate future offerings and play the heck out of 'em.

[happy_daiz]

Stanley Woo wrote...

*snip*

So let's not go crazy and get huffy whenever we do an interview or talk about the game and mention the good parts of it. We do know and freely admit there were problems, but it would be a little unreasonable to stand over us at every interview with your arms crossed until we admit the problems all the time.

BioWare should not be made to feel like they have to apologize any time there is mention of Dragon Age 2. It saddens me that people feel such negativity toward the game, and at some point, they need to let that venom go. It's not healthy to harbor such ill will.

Please know that alongside the haters, BioWare has a lot of fans. We just aren't as vocal as the other group. 

[Masako52]

IanPolaris wrote...

Without fans and if you dump on old fans (which IMO you've done with DA) you turn customers into people like me: Ex-Customers.

Without your customers, you aren't in business which makes the customer right. Always.

-Polaris

Not true. Why? Because customers DON'T know what they want all the time. More importantly, customers are often divided in opinion about games. The game producers' job is to put together a game when no matter what they do, not everyone is going to be happy.

Sure, DA2 had some flaws that most people agree on. Generally, these are time constraint flaws - short quests, reused backgrounds, fewer locations. But you'll find that quite a lot of DA2's criticism are things that other people loved. For example, some people complain about the new race designs, such as elves and qunari. Some people adore them. Some people like the talent trees, some people don't. And so on.

No company can design a company based upon one fan's opinion alone. You're NOT "always right." Frankly, losing a single fan is not a big deal if they're gaining more fans elsewhere.

I'm not saying Bioware shouldn't bear in mind feedback. But they need to make the decision themselves about what to do, and look at it from an artistic and a business standpoint both. There's a reason most fans don't design games - they don't know the first thing about how it's done.

[Cutlass Jack]

Stanley Woo wrote...

So let's not go crazy and get huffy whenever we do an interview or talk about the game and mention the good parts of it. We do know and freely admit there were problems, but it would be a little unreasonable to stand over us at every interview with your arms crossed until we admit the problems all the time.

I think its pretty clear that some folks won't stop doing this until Bioware employees come over their house personally, and kneel in front of them begging forgiveness. Of course this would have to include posting a video to it to YouTube.

Only then can they begin to recover from the near criminal trauma of seeing that same cave repeatedly.

[nitefyre410]

happy_daiz wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

*snip*

So let's not go crazy and get huffy whenever we do an interview or talk about the game and mention the good parts of it. We do know and freely admit there were problems, but it would be a little unreasonable to stand over us at every interview with your arms crossed until we admit the problems all the time.

BioWare should not be made to feel like they have to apologize any time there is mention of Dragon Age 2. It saddens me that people feel such negativity toward the game, and at some point, they need to let that venom go. It's not healthy to harbor such ill will.

Please know that alongside the haters, BioWare has a lot of fans. We just aren't as vocal as the other group. 

  

And its Damn shame that people try too but they in the end only alienate themselves   -  I have seen  it all before.

alot of my fav gaming  franchise with equally passionte fan base of the made changings have survied  Bioware and DA will as well.

[element eater]

Stanley Woo wrote...

element eater wrote...

well I don't think one cant exist with the other all id really say is not to develop a game based of in game data they collect that way lies trouble

Wait, so you want us to not base our development decisions on what people actually are seen to do in game?

i wouldn't say that , but i think if developers(not only applying this only to bioware) are too reliant on it as resource it can be some thing of a minefield to interpretate. I did not mean it as any kind of derogitary statement aimed at you or your company my apologies if it appears that way

the cringe factor generaly just comes from this sort of interview/articlw. what i mean to say is dont feel that it needs to have specific attention drawn to it as much as it has done. Again i do not mean for this to sound as any kind of attack my apologies if appeared so.

Modifié par element eater, 10 août 2011 - 08:22 .

[IanPolaris]

Business 101. The Customer is ALWAYS right. The customer might not be able to clearly articulate what he or she wants all the time but the CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT.

If you deliberately take a dump on your customers (which IMO DA2 did), then you won't be in business long. In a contest between what the Devs want and what the Customers want, the Customers should always win if you expect to stay in business.

Bottom line.

-Polaris

[Ariella]

IanPolaris wrote...

Without fans and if you dump on old fans (which IMO you've done with DA) you turn customers into people like me: Ex-Customers.

Without your customers, you aren't in business which makes the customer right. Always.

-Polaris

If you're an ex-customer, why are you still here? And what if I don't agree with your assessment of what Bioware's done with DA, hmm? Which customer is right, you or me?

This isn't a service based industry. you can't just order a game with the options you want and expect it to be tailored to you like you'd order a meal. Bioware has to take into account tens of thousands of pieces of feedback, then see what's going to work best with what they see as the future of the franchise.

[John Epler]

element eater wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

element eater wrote...

well I don't think one cant exist with the other all id really say is not to develop a game based of in game data they collect that way lies trouble

Wait, so you want us to not base our development decisions on what people actually are seen to do in game?

i wouldn't say that , but i think if developers(not only applying this only to bioware) are too reliant on it as resource it can be some thing of a minefield to interpretate. I did not mean it as any kind of derogitary statement aimed at you or your company my apologies if it appears that way

Telemetry data by itself can be misleading, certainly. Any data point without context is misleading, though - that's true of polls, of fan feedback, any of that sort of information. So you can't just take any of it in isolation - you have to look at all the information at your disposal. And while that includes telemetry data - it's certainly not limited to it.

[Dragoonlordz]

JohnEpler wrote...

element eater wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

element eater wrote...

well I don't think one cant exist with the other all id really say is not to develop a game based of in game data they collect that way lies trouble

Wait, so you want us to not base our development decisions on what people actually are seen to do in game?

i wouldn't say that , but i think if developers(not only applying this only to bioware) are too reliant on it as resource it can be some thing of a minefield to interpretate. I did not mean it as any kind of derogitary statement aimed at you or your company my apologies if it appears that way

Telemetry data by itself can be misleading, certainly. Any data point without context is misleading, though - that's true of polls, of fan feedback, any of that sort of information. So you can't just take any of it in isolation - you have to look at all the information at your disposal. And while that includes telemetry data - it's certainly not limited to it.

Want to borrow my magic 8 ball? I got one.

[IanPolaris]

Masako52 wrote...

Not true. Why? Because customers DON'T know what they want all the time. More importantly, customers are often divided in opinion about games. The game producers' job is to put together a game when no matter what they do, not everyone is going to be happy.

It is (or should have been) known what the customer EXPECATATION is though.  If you call a game DA2 after the first Dragon Age, then the customer reasonably expects an experience much like DAO except perhaps with some improvements.  That is emphatically NOT what happened, and short Dev cycle and EA can't be blamed for it.  The bioware Devs decided unilaterally to strip DAO down and put it back together knowing they were shy on time because apparently the lead dev didn't like DAO.

Not the way it works....not unless you want to kill a franchise.

Sure, DA2 had some flaws that most people agree on. Generally, these are time constraint flaws - short quests, reused backgrounds, fewer locations. But you'll find that quite a lot of DA2's criticism are things that other people loved. For example, some people complain about the new race designs, such as elves and qunari. Some people adore them. Some people like the talent trees, some people don't. And so on.

Wrong.  The biggest and most overreaching flaw with DA2 is that it's not DAO.  Yeah, funny I know but it's the honest truth and it comes from the fact that DA2 is a sequel with the expectations of a sequal.  That's not to say somethings should have been tweaked but the unilateral (the customers were NOT consulted) decision to strip DAO down and "reinvent" it lies solely on the shoulders of BW and it's lead Dev.  The other problems stem from this including a lack of time because the engine was stripped down and rebuilt when that wasn't necessary.

No company can design a company based upon one fan's opinion alone. You're NOT "always right." Frankly, losing a single fan is not a big deal if they're gaining more fans elsewhere.

Sold THROUGH (real sales figures) of DAO approx 5 million.  DA2 less than 1.5 million (per VChartz) which is the best independant estimate we've got.  I am hardly alone....and they are NOT gaining more fans elsewhere.  That is a lie.

I'm not saying Bioware shouldn't bear in mind feedback. But they need to make the decision themselves about what to do, and look at it from an artistic and a business standpoint both. There's a reason most fans don't design games - they don't know the first thing about how it's done.

I didn't say fans should design game.  However, given a choice between what the fans clearly want/expect and what the lead dev wants/expects, the fans should win or you may as well run a hobby store rather than a business.

-Polaris

[nitefyre410]

Ariella wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Without fans and if you dump on old fans (which IMO you've done with DA) you turn customers into people like me: Ex-Customers.

Without your customers, you aren't in business which makes the customer right. Always.

-Polaris

If you're an ex-customer, why are you still here? And what if I don't agree with your assessment of what Bioware's done with DA, hmm? Which customer is right, you or me?

This isn't a service based industry. you can't just order a game with the options you want and expect it to be tailored to you like you'd order a meal. Bioware has to take into account tens of thousands of pieces of feedback, then see what's going to work best with what they see as the future of the franchise.

  

See the bolded Ariellia is exactly the point right there and that is the point alot of people are missing.

[IanPolaris]

nitefyre410 wrote...

Ariella wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Without fans and if you dump on old fans (which IMO you've done with DA) you turn customers into people like me: Ex-Customers.

Without your customers, you aren't in business which makes the customer right. Always.

-Polaris

If you're an ex-customer, why are you still here? And what if I don't agree with your assessment of what Bioware's done with DA, hmm? Which customer is right, you or me?

This isn't a service based industry. you can't just order a game with the options you want and expect it to be tailored to you like you'd order a meal. Bioware has to take into account tens of thousands of pieces of feedback, then see what's going to work best with what they see as the future of the franchise.

  

See the bolded Ariellia is exactly the point right there and that is the point alot of people are missing.

Right back at everyone.  I'd say that's the point Bioware is missing.  The bulk of the customers apparently (per the sales numbers) liked the way it was done in DAO more or less (not saying that improvements couldn't have been made of course).  That input seems to have been completely IGNORED until it was far too late and the damage was done.

-Polaris