144 réponses à ce sujet

[AtreiyaN7]

harkness72 wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Some fans are also under the mistaken assumption that they are the ones creating the game, and assuming any kind of risk. They are not. Whether the game succeeds or fails, they won't have spent millions of dollars, won't have spent hundreds of hours of work, have no financial or professional stake in the project, and aren't responsible for any of the content. All they've done is make a bunch of suggestions based on their preferences.

For a customer, there is only gain. For a company, it's work and risk and reputation at stake. so yes, we are definitely listening to feedback, because you guys represent a good cross-section of fans, you're very vocal and you have some great ideas. But no, there is no contract or obligation to implement your suggestions. At best, we can promise only to hear the feedback and think about it along with the hundreds of other suggestions we get. It doesn't mean we don't love you.

Thanks, Stanley. It's really nice to know that you don't care about the £40 I spent on DAII which I didn't feel I recieved value for money. It's also so lovely of you to trivialise the "bunch of suggestions" that dissapointed fans make. Guess you won't care about people illegally downloading DAIII?

It's the guys like you and Gaider who need to be muzzled. 

Actually, I'd prefer that fans who think they have a God-given right to behave like jerks just because they spent $60 on game be muzzled, but that's just me. Customers have a right to give feedback, and funny thing, there's been this gigantic constructive criticism thread for people to post in - not to mention plenty of communication with devs responding in these forums.

[Yuqi]

As someone who has worked in the industy. It would be nice to give credit,to the design team, like animators who slog hours trying to get your characters to move right.Or the modelers who have to make sure detals are correct. There is a bucket load involved in making a game, alot of time and effort.Making a sequance of a game(depending on technology) can take up to a week or longer.They do have restrictions, on what will render,what wont.

Mr Woo, can you give my regards to the animation team! I really appriciate what they do,and the hours they slog in~ And the amount of coffee they must drink!

All this negative feedback,must make them feel like shi* They did alot of hard work,Ican appriciate that even if Idont agree on some points.

Modifié par Yuqi, 10 août 2011 - 09:40 .

[AmstradHero]

harkness72 wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Saying "the customer is always right" is a little silly. Case in point:

Customer 1: I hated the over-the-top animations in combat. It made me feel like it wasn't even remotely realistic and totally shattered my sense of immersion.

Customer 2: I loved the over-the-top animations in combat. It made me feel larger-than-life, like a real fantasy action hero, rather than an ordinary person, and I really enjoy that feeling.
Designer: 

Ten you go with the clearest majority or make OTT comabt optinal.

Clearest majority: Where, pray tell, will you get that from? The forums filled with a small number of highly vocal fans? A group that is statistically insignificant and probably not representative of the total customer base? That sounds like a bad idea to me.

"make OTT combat optional": I'm afraid you don't seem to understand exactly the ridiculously large amount of work such an option would involve. You may as well say "just create two completely different stories based on which factions Hawke supports at the very beginning of the game."

Modifié par AmstradHero, 10 août 2011 - 09:39 .

[King Cousland]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

harkness72 wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Some fans are also under the mistaken assumption that they are the ones creating the game, and assuming any kind of risk. They are not. Whether the game succeeds or fails, they won't have spent millions of dollars, won't have spent hundreds of hours of work, have no financial or professional stake in the project, and aren't responsible for any of the content. All they've done is make a bunch of suggestions based on their preferences.

For a customer, there is only gain. For a company, it's work and risk and reputation at stake. so yes, we are definitely listening to feedback, because you guys represent a good cross-section of fans, you're very vocal and you have some great ideas. But no, there is no contract or obligation to implement your suggestions. At best, we can promise only to hear the feedback and think about it along with the hundreds of other suggestions we get. It doesn't mean we don't love you.

Thanks, Stanley. It's really nice to know that you don't care about the £40 I spent on DAII which I didn't feel I recieved value for money. It's also so lovely of you to trivialise the "bunch of suggestions" that dissapointed fans make. Guess you won't care about people illegally downloading DAIII?

It's the guys like you and Gaider who need to be muzzled. 

Actually, I'd prefer that fans who think they have a God-given right to behave like jerks just because they spent $60 on game be muzzled, but that's just me. Customers have a right to give feedback, and funny thing, there's been this gigantic constructive criticism thread for people to post in - not to mention plenty of communication with devs responding in these forums.

I posted in the CC thread, but when Bioware employees say that they don't care if they lose fans and say that all we do is give them feedback (like it's US that are fault for something!), how can they not expect a huge backlash?

Modifié par harkness72, 10 août 2011 - 09:45 .

[axl99]

Still no excuse to be jerks to each other. All it does is give all the forumites here a bad name.

[Gunderic]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Maybe it's just me, though I remember people who followed the marketing knew what they were getting into with Dragon Age 2. I certainly remember some individuals never quieting down and repeating each feature they'd absolutely loathe for Dragon Age 2.

If they decided to purchase the game despite their beliefs, why are they surprised when they found out it wasn't exactly DA:O? Those who didn't follow the marketing, I understand. Those who followed the marketing and absolutely loathed everything that was advertised but still purchased the game, not so much.

They liked the first game, wanted 'closure', or weren't sure if 'failure' would be that likely ( even if they were vocal about some changes, the game could have still been 'good' ). A lot of things like bland, repetitive environments and enemy encounters or plot linearity -- a lot of faults -- they had no way to pinpoint early on, not even if they played the demo.

I definitely didn't waste money buying the game, myself. Things like the new features, the marketing, and former lead designer leaving were already pretty damn strong warning signs to me.

There are just far, far better games out there from companies that don't try as hard to jerk me around with their 'new directions' and asinine, made-by-marketing chimps advertising.

Modifié par Gunderic, 10 août 2011 - 09:42 .

[happy_daiz]

Personally, I'm glad I'm not angry about DA2. It sounds like a lot more effort than I'm willing to expend.  

[Cutlass Jack]

harkness72 wrote...

I posted in the CC thread, but when Bioware employees say that they don't care if they lose fans and say that all we do is give them feedback (like is US that are fault for something!), how can they not expect lashback?

I seemed to have missed the quote where they stated they don't care. Link please?

[AtreiyaN7]

harkness72 wrote...

I posted in the CC thread, but when Bioware employees say that they don't care if they lose fans and say that all we do is give them feedback (like is US that are fault for something!), how can they not expect lashback?

I don't see Stanley or anyone else saying that they don't care if they lose fans. Would you like to provide an actual quote where the man said that in his post? Because I sure as heck don't see that anywhere in there - at all - and I fail to see how someone can interpret it as such, unless he/she is really going out of his/her way to twist things. EDIT: I'm not really seeing it anywhere in the article either, so hey, feel free to provide proof that someone at BW said that.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 10 août 2011 - 10:03 .

[happy_daiz]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

harkness72 wrote...

I posted in the CC thread, but when Bioware employees say that they don't care if they lose fans and say that all we do is give them feedback (like is US that are fault for something!), how can they not expect lashback?

I seemed to have missed the quote where they stated they don't care. Link please?

Indeed, I'm curious as well.

[Gunderic]

dheer wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...
Customer 1: I hated the over-the-top animations in combat. It made me feel like it wasn't even remotely realistic and totally shattered my sense of immersion.

Customer 2: I loved the over-the-top animations in combat. It made me feel larger-than-life, like a real fantasy action hero, rather than an ordinary person, and I really enjoy that feeling.
Designer: 

I think the designer should think of both of these opinions in relation to the story. DA2's story was not over the top or larger than life in any way. The look and feel of playing a game shouldn't be seperate.

The "larger-than-life" part gave me a pretty good laugh. Thanks for that.

[Kharizma]

happy_daiz wrote...

Personally, I'm glad I'm not angry about DA2. It sounds like a lot more effort than I'm willing to expend.  

Amen.  It seems to me that those who have complained, over and over and over, have some expecation that BW and EA will appear at the house with $60 in one hand and ML's head in the other by way of making amends.  Rather than accepting that isn't going to happen, the vitriolic vocal few merely ramp up the vitriol another notch.  I can't see that it does any good and it certainly doesn't facilitate civil discourse.  

[Eldred]

business theory in a DA topic. interesting.

If you ever tried to do a survey to customer for a product you'd know they never ever mention the things they take for granted. Like that there should be a power button on a vacuum, what they will talk about and be vocal about is features they like or want that are the extra stuff that will increase their experience of quality. Which makes it difficult for a game developer to always hit the jackpot.

But then there is obviously always the functions the costumer didn't know he even wanted. Which is why developers need to be allowed to play with their art and be innovative. Else we end up with CoD 1 2 3 4 5 6 in RPG world and that would be so dull

Bottom line is if Dragon Age 2 was an unique IP they game would have received a whole other reception. But since it is a DA game it had the tough luck trying to measure up to what was game of the year? Knowing this Bioware made a bold move to do major overhaul of the IP, it could have payed of. I think we all can agree it was far from a success but it was not all that bad either.

And as some say costumers here have very different opinions about several key features of the game. I for one liked the idea of most of the game taking part in a City, I liked the story. It was different from the save the world. But what killed the experiance for me is and will always be the combat. I just don't like my RPG with that fast paced over the top combat. Where as DA is way closer to the combat style I like.,Graphics wise I also prefered DA especially when it came to magic and AOE abilities. Much prettier in DA than DA2.

[King Cousland]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

harkness72 wrote...

I posted in the CC thread, but when Bioware employees say that they don't care if they lose fans and say that all we do is give them feedback (like is US that are fault for something!), how can they not expect lashback?

I don't see Stanley or anyone else saying that they don't care if they lose fans. Would you like to provide an actual quote where the man said that in his post? Because I sure as heck don't see that anywhere in there - at all - and I fail to see how someone can interpret is as such, unless he/she is really going out of his/her way to twist things. EDIT: I'm not really seeing it anywhere in the article either, so hey, feel free to provide proof that someone at BW said that.

My apologies, there isn't a quote, but when Woo states that they do everything and the fans do nothing but give feedback, how does that not have tones of arrogance and indifferance? And as for twisting things, I guess it's a little like somebody else calling someone a jerk because they don't agree with them, or trying to be sarcastic without actaully checking whether somebody's contributed to feedback  

[kingjezza]

happy_daiz wrote...

Personally, I'm glad I'm not angry about DA2. It sounds like a lot more effort than I'm willing to expend.  

Takes no more effort to moan than it does to praise in all honesty.

[element eater]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

So let's not go crazy and get huffy whenever we do an interview or talk about the game and mention the good parts of it. We do know and freely admit there were problems, but it would be a little unreasonable to stand over us at every interview with your arms crossed until we admit the problems all the time.

I think its pretty clear that some folks won't stop doing this until Bioware employees come over their house personally, and kneel in front of them begging forgiveness. Of course this would have to include posting a video to it to YouTube.

Only then can they begin to recover from the near criminal trauma of seeing that same cave repeatedly.

okie dokie  

seeing as this a reply to a reply about my post i feel i should perhaps explain myself. I did not have any intention of indicating that i was dissatisfied by the fact that they were prowd of the product . By all means they should after all it is a good thing that they are, I know i wouldnt want to purchase a product from anyone that wasnt happy with it themselves. What i meant was i dont feel that the point needs to be continualy made about dao fans expecting more of the same. This is not to say they should have addresed other fan issues with the title far from it i would be happy to hear about what they felt worked well. All im saying is id rather not hear that particular sentiment any more and more over i do not not feel that at this stage it still needs to be made. i hope that cleared things up

Modifié par element eater, 10 août 2011 - 09:56 .

[hoorayforicecream]

harkness72 wrote...

My apologies, there isn't a quote, but when Woo states that they do everything and the fans do nothing but give feedback, how does that not have tones of arrogance and indifferance? And as for twisting things, I guess it's a little like somebody else calling someone a jerk because they don't agree with them, or trying to be sarcastic without actaully checking whether somebody's contributed to feedback  

What do fans do besides give feedback? If they buy the game and dislike it, that's sad. But I don't see how that's not also a feedback mechanism. If you don't like it after paying for it, don't buy any more of it and maybe it will change. If not, there are other products to consider that may be more like what you want. It's not like the fans are the ones writing shaders, creating levels, designing encounters, scripting the cutscenes, or localizing it to different languages. Not that some of us wouldn't love to (TOOLSET PLEASE!).

Personally, I'm glad that it's just feedback. Design by committee never works. Too many cooks and so forth, after all.

[John Epler]

harkness72 wrote...

My apologies, there isn't a quote, but when Woo states that they do everything and the fans do nothing but give feedback, how does that not have tones of arrogance and indifferance? And as for twisting things, I guess it's a little like somebody else calling someone a jerk because they don't agree with them, or trying to be sarcastic without actaully checking whether somebody's contributed to feedback  

What Stan's saying, though, isn't untrue. Before you assume I mean 'YOU UNGRATEFUL FANS I WORKED MY HANDS TO THE BONE MAKING THIS SCENE, WHY BACK IN MY DAY', all I'm saying (and all Stan is saying) is that, in the end, any ideas we take from the forums are implemented by us. There are certain realities of game development which have to be kept in mind whenever we're looking at a particular suggestion in regards to its viability, and these aren't realities which are common knowledge. Nor should they be - as a consumer, it's not something you -need- to know. Whereas, it's very much our job to keep all of this stuff in mind.

It's only arrogance and indifference if you take it as 'well why should we listen to your feedback, we do all the work' as opposed to 'the feedback given on these forums, while always appreciated and solicited, is given without a knowledge of exactly what will be involved re: implementation'. To put it more simply - as a consumer, your primary (and often, only) consideration when giving feedback is 'what would make the game fun for me'. Which is exactly as it should be! It's not your job to keep all the other stuff in mind. Some fans do, of course, and that can be helpful, but in the end, we have to look at it not only as 'is this fun', but also 'does this A) work with other design ideas we have, with the resources we have, C) with the technology we have'. That's all Stan is saying.

[Monica21]

harkness72 wrote...
My apologies, there isn't a quote, but when Woo states that they do everything and the fans do nothing but give feedback, how does that not have tones of arrogance and indifferance? And as for twisting things, I guess it's a little like somebody else calling someone a jerk because they don't agree with them, or trying to be sarcastic without actaully checking whether somebody's contributed to feedback  

Well, he's right. I mean, we give them money but that's not the same as what they have to put up with as game developers.

And I'll be completely honest, I hate being invested in a series and then disliking a sequel. I know the developers work hard and do the best they can to deliver a quality product. I don't think the developers stop caring what the fans think. I do however, think that they know what we know, and it's that opinions are subjective and forum posters are a vocal minority. If they are saying they did things right with DA2 and things that earned new fans, then good. They get to be one of the game companies that continues to make games. No game company ever survived by making games for a niche market.

[King Cousland]

JohnEpler wrote...

harkness72 wrote...

My apologies, there isn't a quote, but when Woo states that they do everything and the fans do nothing but give feedback, how does that not have tones of arrogance and indifferance? And as for twisting things, I guess it's a little like somebody else calling someone a jerk because they don't agree with them, or trying to be sarcastic without actaully checking whether somebody's contributed to feedback  

What Stan's saying, though, isn't untrue. Before you assume I mean 'YOU UNGRATEFUL FANS I WORKED MY HANDS TO THE BONE MAKING THIS SCENE, WHY BACK IN MY DAY', all I'm saying (and all Stan is saying) is that, in the end, any ideas we take from the forums are implemented by us. There are certain realities of game development which have to be kept in mind whenever we're looking at a particular suggestion in regards to its viability, and these aren't realities which are common knowledge. Nor should they be - as a consumer, it's not something you -need- to know. Whereas, it's very much our job to keep all of this stuff in mind.

It's only arrogance and indifference if you take it as 'well why should we listen to your feedback, we do all the work' as opposed to 'the feedback given on these forums, while always appreciated and solicited, is given without a knowledge of exactly what will be involved re: implementation'. To put it more simply - as a consumer, your primary (and often, only) consideration when giving feedback is 'what would make the game fun for me'. Which is exactly as it should be! It's not your job to keep all the other stuff in mind. Some fans do, of course, and that can be helpful, but in the end, we have to look at it not only as 'is this fun', but also 'does this A) work with other design ideas we have, with the resources we have, C) with the technology we have'. That's all Stan is saying.

Thanks for clearing that up John. I know that the devs work hard and aim to please, and yes, it is them who implement any suggestions. I felt that Stanley's reply was clumsily worded however, and when he says that all we do is give feeback, it's a lie. We also spend hard earned money on your products, and if we didn't, there wouldn't be any products to buy. 

[nitefyre410]

happy_daiz wrote...

Personally, I'm glad I'm not angry about DA2. It sounds like a lot more effort than I'm willing to expend.  

 

I know right  - a lot of  wasted energy and effort .

[Cutlass Jack]

element eater wrote...

okie dokie  

seeing as this a reply to a reply about my post i feel i should perhaps explain myself. I did not have any intention of indicating that i was dissatisfied by the fact that they were prowd of the product . By all means they should after all it is a good thing that they are, I know i wouldnt want to purchase a product from anyone that wasnt happy with it themselves. What i meant was i dont feel that the point needs to be continualy made about dao fans expecting more of the same. This is not to say they should have addresed other fan issues with the title far from it i would be happy to hear about what they felt worked well. All im saying is id rather not hear that particular sentiment any more and more over i do not not feel that at this stage it still needs to be made. i hope that cleared things up

Just to clarify, I wasn't actually directing that at anything you posted. I apologize if it seemed I was. I was making a more generalized bit of Snarkasm at people who seem to be determined to take offense at nearly anything a Bioware employee says.

[Bryy_Miller]

harkness72 wrote...
 all we do is give feeback, it's a lie. We also spend hard earned money on your products, and if we didn't, there wouldn't be any products to buy. 

Buying the product is feedback. It says you felt confident enough in the brand/franchise/product/company to buy the game. Making it out to seem like buying the product somehow is more than it is.... it's rather silly.

[Gunderic]

nitefyre410 wrote...

happy_daiz wrote...

Personally, I'm glad I'm not angry about DA2. It sounds like a lot more effort than I'm willing to expend.  

 

I know right  - a lot of  wasted energy and effort .

I could have created Dragon Age 2 with the same level of ambition, truly.