144 réponses à ce sujet

[Willybot]

harkness72 wrote...

My apologies, there isn't a quote, but when Woo states that they do everything and the fans do nothing but give feedback, how does that not have tones of arrogance and indifferance?

Percieved tone aside, it genuinely works this way however. Don't get me wrong, if a company is releasing a series of products it may be a good decision to look at *why* one sells less than another. If Product A is done a certain way and sells very well, then Product B is done differently and sells half as much....you may wish to look into the reasons. Perhaps when the time comes to make Product C, incorporating what made Product A sells so much better may be a good idea.

At this point the jury is in and gone home in regards to DA2. Those who liked it are still going to like it, and those who did not will still not. No amount of hyperbole on either side is likely to change anyone's mind or impact DA2 sales. Going forward to DA3, the Devs can either try to attract a new audience or woo back those they lost. Until actual features are in the works, PR is all they have.

[Realmzmaster]

IanPolaris wrote...

Business 101. The Customer is ALWAYS right. The customer might not be able to clearly articulate what he or she wants all the time but the CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT.

If you deliberately take a dump on your customers (which IMO DA2 did), then you won't be in business long. In a contest between what the Devs want and what the Customers want, the Customers should always win if you expect to stay in business.

Bottom line.

-Polaris

What happens when the customers do not agree. Those who like DA2 are as much a customer as those who do not like it. So as a customer those who like DA2 are correct.  Bioware is going in the right direction.
As a customer those who dislike DA2 are correct.  Bioware is going in the wrong diection. It depends on who is the customer.

Business 101 The customer is always right, but it depends on the customer. All the customers do not universally agree. If they universally agreed it would be much easier to say the Customer is always right.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 10 août 2011 - 10:14 .

[Gunderic]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

harkness72 wrote...
 all we do is give feeback, it's a lie. We also spend hard earned money on your products, and if we didn't, there wouldn't be any products to buy. 

Buying the product is feedback.

This is a bit misleading. Buying a product isn't *just* feedback. It's also a return of investments. We wouldn't be seeing any games by 'just providing feedback'.

Modifié par Gunderic, 10 août 2011 - 10:14 .

[element eater]

Cutlass Jack wrote...
Just to clarify, I wasn't actually directing that at anything you posted. I apologize if it seemed I was. I was making a more generalized bit of Snarkasm at people who seem to be determined to take offense at nearly anything a Bioware employee says.

ok no worries :happy: just felt that post was escalating into something it wasnt meant to be

Modifié par element eater, 10 août 2011 - 10:28 .

[Jamie_edmo]

Realmzmaster wrote...

What happens when the customers do not agree. Those who like DA2 are as much a customer as those who do not like it. So as a customer those who like DA2 are correct.  Bioware is going in the right direction.
As a customer those who dislike DA2 are correct.  Bioware is going in the wrong diection. It depends on who is the customer.

Business 101 The customer is always right, but it depends on the customer.

I think its not so much as the customer is right no matter what!, but rather every customers opinion is right, and thats what makes a great games dev looking through customer opinion and deciding what they think is right and what "direction" (starting to hate the term) to take that specific franchise/game in, and coming out the other side with a top quality game, no company is bound to meet everybodys taste's but at least trying to cater to as many people as possible is the best option, I personally prefer DA:O to DA2 but thats my opinion and its right to me other disagree and their opinion is also right, its a massive "grey area".

[Sylvius the Mad]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Wait, so you want us to not base our development decisions on what people actually are seen to do in game?

I do want you to base your design on that.

And if you're going to listen to the gameplay behaviour, why did we get paraphrases?  Your testing showed that players would tend to skip the spoken dialogue if it was repeating something they'd already read.  So that clearly demonstrates that the spoken line - with the voices and cinematics all together - weren't that important to players.

And yet this somehow caused you folks to remove a core piece of player agency (choosing dialogue) in order to change player behaviour.

I don't get it.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 10 août 2011 - 10:21 .

[King Cousland]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Wait, so you want us to not base our development decisions on what people actually are seen to do in game?

I do want you to base your design on that.

And if you're going to listen to the gameplay behaviour, why did we get paraphrases?  Your testing showed that players would tend to skip the spoken dialogue if it was repeating something they'd already read.  So that clearly demonstrates that the spoken line - with the voices and cinematics all together - weren't that important to players.

And yet this somehow caused you folks to remove a core piece of player agency (choosing dialogue) in order to change player behaviour.

I don't get it.

And neither do they. I beleieve they're keeping DAII style for DAIII. So I won't be able to break off a romance if I want to, or kiss my LI whenever I want, or ask Leliana to tell me a story, or ask Alistair about the Wardens, or even invite someone to bed.

[nitefyre410]

Gunderic wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

happy_daiz wrote...

Personally, I'm glad I'm not angry about DA2. It sounds like a lot more effort than I'm willing to expend.  

 

I know right  - a lot of  wasted energy and effort .

I could have created Dragon Age 2 with the same level of ambition, truly.

 

Thats nice... 

Truly

[AtreiyaN7]

IanPolaris wrote...

Business 101. The Customer is ALWAYS right. The customer might not be able to clearly articulate what he or she wants all the time but the CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT.

If you deliberately take a dump on your customers (which IMO DA2 did), then you won't be in business long. In a contest between what the Devs want and what the Customers want, the Customers should always win if you expect to stay in business.

Bottom line.

-Polaris

The customer is NOT always right - that saying is just something that applies to, I expect, people involved in customer relations and is a matter of general good practice. You can and should try to keep customers happy, but I recently dealt with a "customer" (an author) who claimed that the line spacing in her manuscript was true 1.15 line spacing and demanded that I make yet another change to the galley proof. Her manuscript did NOT have true 1.15 line spacing, which I proved unequivocally. So guess what? I was right, and the customer was NOT right. She also backed down after I proved it.

With a game, you're buying a product that a bunch of developers created. They had vision of a specific story, a specific place and specific characters. A person who buys that game has a right to their opinion about it (good or bad) and a right to give feedback. We get to make suggestions, and the devs do listen, but we are NOT always right about everything.

Van Gogh certainly never listened to his "customers" (art collectors) and followed his own vision, which resulted in him being poor and largely ignored during his lifetime. People back then thought his paintings were garbage. After he died? People thought he was a bloody genius, and his works have sold for millions and millions of dollars. So tell me which "customers" were right: the ones who despised him and left him impoverished or the people who now think his paintings are brilliant?

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 10 août 2011 - 10:38 .

[Bryy_Miller]

harkness72 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Wait, so you want us to not base our development decisions on what people actually are seen to do in game?

I do want you to base your design on that.

And if you're going to listen to the gameplay behaviour, why did we get paraphrases?  Your testing showed that players would tend to skip the spoken dialogue if it was repeating something they'd already read.  So that clearly demonstrates that the spoken line - with the voices and cinematics all together - weren't that important to players.

And yet this somehow caused you folks to remove a core piece of player agency (choosing dialogue) in order to change player behaviour.

I don't get it.

And neither do they. I beleieve they're keeping DAII style for DAIII. So I won't be able to break off a romance if I want to, or kiss my LI whenever I want, or ask Leliana to tell me a story, or ask Alistair about the Wardens, or even invite someone to bed.

I get your frustration, but in all honesty, you still had party dialogue in their "base".

Gunderic wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

harkness72 wrote...
 all we do is give feeback, it's a lie. We also spend hard earned money on your products, and if we didn't, there wouldn't be any products to buy. 

Buying the product is feedback.

This is a bit misleading. Buying a product isn't *just* feedback. It's also a return of investments. We wouldn't be seeing any games by 'just providing feedback'.

Okay, but what does that return of investments SAY?

It says that the gamer felt comfortable buying.

Feedback.

Harkness is trying to say that buying the game entitles him to something more than simply giving feedback.

Modifié par Bryy_Miller, 10 août 2011 - 10:43 .

[element eater]

you know what never mind

Modifié par element eater, 10 août 2011 - 10:49 .

[King Cousland]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

harkness72 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Wait, so you want us to not base our development decisions on what people actually are seen to do in game?

I do want you to base your design on that.

And if you're going to listen to the gameplay behaviour, why did we get paraphrases?  Your testing showed that players would tend to skip the spoken dialogue if it was repeating something they'd already read.  So that clearly demonstrates that the spoken line - with the voices and cinematics all together - weren't that important to players.

And yet this somehow caused you folks to remove a core piece of player agency (choosing dialogue) in order to change player behaviour.

I don't get it.

And neither do they. I beleieve they're keeping DAII style for DAIII. So I won't be able to break off a romance if I want to, or kiss my LI whenever I want, or ask Leliana to tell me a story, or ask Alistair about the Wardens, or even invite someone to bed.

I get your frustration, but in all honesty, you still had party dialogue in their "base".

Gunderic wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

harkness72 wrote...
 all we do is give feeback, it's a lie. We also spend hard earned money on your products, and if we didn't, there wouldn't be any products to buy. 

Buying the product is feedback.

This is a bit misleading. Buying a product isn't *just* feedback. It's also a return of investments. We wouldn't be seeing any games by 'just providing feedback'.

Okay, but what does that return of investments SAY?

It says that the gamer felt comfortable buying.

Feedback.

Harkness is trying to say that buying the game entitles him to something more than simply giving feedback.

But how would I be able to give feedback without first buying and testing the product?

[Morroian]

harkness72 wrote...

And neither do they. I beleieve they're keeping DAII style for DAIII. So I won't be able to break off a romance if I want to, or kiss my LI whenever I want, or ask Leliana to tell me a story, or ask Alistair about the Wardens, or even invite someone to bed.

Since when is all that a fundamental part of the design?  

[King Cousland]

Morroian wrote...

harkness72 wrote...

And neither do they. I beleieve they're keeping DAII style for DAIII. So I won't be able to break off a romance if I want to, or kiss my LI whenever I want, or ask Leliana to tell me a story, or ask Alistair about the Wardens, or even invite someone to bed.

Since when is all that a fundamental part of the design?  

It isn't. But neither is most of the fun little features in the games. You want to strip it down to the fundamentals? Fair enough, we're left with NPCs, enviroments, story, combat some dialogue and quests. Maybe companions. Would you play that game?

[Morroian]

IanPolaris wrote...

Sold THROUGH (real sales figures) of DAO approx 5 million.  DA2 less than 1.5 million (per VChartz) which is the best independant estimate we've got.  I am hardly alone....and they are NOT gaining more fans elsewhere.  That is a [i][b]lie.

According to what I get from vgchartz DAO has sold through 3.8M.

Modifié par Morroian, 10 août 2011 - 11:06 .

[Morroian]

harkness72 wrote...

Morroian wrote...

harkness72 wrote...

And neither do they. I beleieve they're keeping DAII style for DAIII. So I won't be able to break off a romance if I want to, or kiss my LI whenever I want, or ask Leliana to tell me a story, or ask Alistair about the Wardens, or even invite someone to bed.

Since when is all that a fundamental part of the design?  

It isn't. But neither is most of the fun little features in the games. You want to strip it down to the fundamentals? Fair enough, we're left with NPCs, enviroments, story, combat some dialogue and quests. Maybe companions. Would you play that game?

You're saying the direction of DA2 precludes those features from being included when in reality the DA2 design does not preclude those from being included. IIRC one of the devs even said they were looking at whether they could increase the interaction with your love interest.

[King Cousland]

Morroian wrote...

harkness72 wrote...

Morroian wrote...

harkness72 wrote...

And neither do they. I beleieve they're keeping DAII style for DAIII. So I won't be able to break off a romance if I want to, or kiss my LI whenever I want, or ask Leliana to tell me a story, or ask Alistair about the Wardens, or even invite someone to bed.

Since when is all that a fundamental part of the design?  

It isn't. But neither is most of the fun little features in the games. You want to strip it down to the fundamentals? Fair enough, we're left with NPCs, enviroments, story, combat some dialogue and quests. Maybe companions. Would you play that game?

You're saying the direction of DA2 precludes those features from being included when in reality the DA2 design does not preclude those from being included. IIRC one of the devs even said they were looking at whether they could increase the interaction with your love interest.

No, I'm not saying that at all. hence the word fundamentals. But if you can tell me a way to speak to Aveline or Isabela whenever I want, then do so. And if the devs are looking at ways to increase interaction, great! But for, I want full interaction with companions at any time. 

[Ariella]

IanPolaris wrote...

Ariella wrote...

You're making assumptions at what the sales numbers mean, colored by your view of the situation. Especially considering the fact that as pointed out several times, much of the changes found in DA2 reflected fan feedback (art is a very specific one from Origins for example as is the dialogue complains addressed from Awakening), so to claim they ignored fan feadback isn't true. They just didn't do what YOU wanted, and there is a difference between a single person's desire and a cross section of feedback, the latter is something none of us really have full access to until the next game comes out, and the devs discuss it, as they did in DA2.

False.  The trajectory of the sales numbers don't lie and NEITHER does the initial feedback from the fans (or ex-fans in many cases) of the Franchise.  The biggest failing of DA2 was that it WASN'T DAO (or more appropriately a reasonable sucessor to it) and that is what we were led to believe....from the title if nothing else.

You're are A) only taking feedback from those who believe your position do not take into account other prevailing factors for lower sales (which is happening througout the industry).

We weren't led to believe anything of the sort. It was made clear from the beginning that this was not Origins.

As for the rest, ML is on record as to why many of the changes were made before DA2 was published and customer feedback was near the bottom of the list.  HE didn't like much of DAO and thus it was changed based on HIS (singular) opinion.  He has said as much.

-Polaris

Where? I never saw ANYTHING in the pre launch interviews or game play vids or anything else. There were parts of Origins that he thinks could have been done better, but I have never seen him be anything but proud of DAO.

[IanPolaris]

Morroian wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Sold THROUGH (real sales figures) of DAO approx 5 million.  DA2 less than 1.5 million (per VChartz) which is the best independant estimate we've got.  I am hardly alone....and they are NOT gaining more fans elsewhere.  That is a [i][b]lie.

According to what I get from vgchartz DAO has sold through 3.8M.

Correction noted.  That's still, what?  Nearly three times as much (certainly at least 2.5) as DA2 so the customers HAVE spoken and not in BW's favor.  I noticed you didn't challenge my DA2 figure.  Good thing since I happen to KNOW that's right.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Ariella wrote...

You're are A) only taking feedback from those who believe your position do not take into account other prevailing factors for lower sales (which is happening througout the industry).

We weren't led to believe anything of the sort. It was made clear from the beginning that this was not Origins.

Actually (second point first) we weren't.  The game was clearly marketed as the sequel to DAO.  Why else call it DRAGON AGE TWO rather than DA: Kirkwall (for example)?  That's a non-starter right there.

As for lower sales, you do know that since late April DAO has been outselling (by a significant margin) DA2.  That is comparing apples to apples and I've even discounting the fact that DAO is an older game.

No, the sales curves and customer feedback really do speak for themselves.  You simply can't accept what they are saying.

As for the rest, ML is on record as to why many of the changes were made before DA2 was published and customer feedback was near the bottom of the list.  HE didn't like much of DAO and thus it was changed based on HIS (singular) opinion.  He has said as much.

-Polaris

Where? I never saw ANYTHING in the pre launch interviews or game play vids or anything else. There were parts of Origins that he thinks could have been done better, but I have never seen him be anything but proud of DAO.

ML had many online interviews where he has said precisely this before DA2 was published including the fact that he felt compelled (to draw in the CoD crowd) to tear down the DAO engine and start ever which is something that NO ONE (other than ML) thought was needed...and is a prime example of what I'm talking about.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 10 août 2011 - 11:39 .

[Ariella]

Gunderic wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

happy_daiz wrote...

Personally, I'm glad I'm not angry about DA2. It sounds like a lot more effort than I'm willing to expend.  

 

I know right  - a lot of  wasted energy and effort .

I could have created Dragon Age 2 with the same level of ambition, truly.

Really, then go ahead... Let's see if you can do better.

[Ariella]

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

[quote]Ariella wrote...

You're are A) only taking feedback from those who believe your position do not take into account other prevailing factors for lower sales (which is happening througout the industry).

We weren't led to believe anything of the sort. It was made clear from the beginning that this was not Origins.
[/quote]

Actually (second point first) we weren't.  The game was clearly marketed as the sequel to DAO.  Why else call it DRAGON AGE TWO rather than DA: Kirkwall (for example)?  That's a non-starter right there.
[/quote]

This is funny; because every single piece of pre release said that this game (the second in the dragon age franchise) while taking place in the same world, with many groups and characters we were familiar with was not going to be exactly the same as Origins. They talked about the Framed  Narritive device from the beginning, talked about the character of Hawke. They made certain to point out that the story of the Warden was over with Witch Hunt, and that there was a new story they wanted to tell. All of this has been said from the beginning, Ian. Changing the title to DA:Kirkwall wouldn't have made a difference, and it has a legitimate right to be called DA2 as it is the second core game in the Dragon Age series.

[quote]

As for lower sales, you do know that since late April DAO has been outselling (by a significant margin) DA2.  That is comparing apples to apples and I've even discounting the fact that DAO is an older game.
[/quote]

Show me the figures. Are you counting that DAO has two different editions to DA2's one? Or are you just going with core game sales? And did you consider that maybe some of those people picked up DAO because they played DA2 and liked it? What you have is numbers, but you don't have the why behind the numbers. You can extrapolate to some degree, but I doubt you personally have all the factors to do such a thing with any accuracy, I doubt any fan who doesn't work for Bioware or EA could.

[quote]

No, the sales curves and customer feedback really do speak for themselves.  You simply can't accept what they are saying.
[/quote]

There's a reason why MArk Twain once said: there are lies, damn lies and statistics.



[quote][quote]

As for the rest, ML is on record as to why many of the changes were made before DA2 was published and customer feedback was near the bottom of the list.  HE didn't like much of DAO and thus it was changed based on HIS (singular) opinion.  He has said as much.

-Polaris[/quote]

Where? I never saw ANYTHING in the pre launch interviews or game play vids or anything else. There were parts of Origins that he thinks could have been done better, but I have never seen him be anything but proud of DAO.

[/quote]

ML had many online interviews where he has said precisely this before DA2 was published including the fact that he felt compelled (to draw in the CoD crowd) to tear down the DAO engine and start ever which is something that NO ONE (other than ML) thought was needed...and is a prime example of what I'm talking about.

-Polaris[/quote]

He never said those things. One of the reasons for the revamp on the engine was to make gameplay more even across all three platforms the game is offered on, considering one of the biggest complaints was the huge difference between the PC version and the console versions... Complaints, I might add, that came from fans.

As for "drawing in the CoD crowd", my G-d, could you misrepresent what he said any further? What he said was that there are people out there playing games which have RPG elements, especially things like progression, and pointing out to said people that there's a whole genre based on the concept of progression, with better story and better interaction than anything they've seen in their other games.

BTW here's what he has ACTUALLY said, not just you putting words in his mouth:


[quote]

Mike Laidlaw






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Let's be frank. To my
understanding the "Bioware wants to appeal to the Call of Duty crowd"
myth devloped like this:

Greg
Zeschuk comments in an interview that Bioware aspires to sell to a
larger audience, and that numbers like Call of Duty's 10 million are the
long-term goal.

DAII's combat is,
in fact,  faster, and more "actiony." Some RPG elements are removed
(skills), and others are changed (iconic follower armor, rather than
complete customization).

Magical Alchemy happens and "Apparently Dragon Age only wants Call of Duty players to play their game." is the result.

[/list]In
truth, what we would like is for there to be 10 million RPG fans out
there, not to toss aside RPG fans. If anything, I suspect that we didn't
put enough focus on stats, cross-class combos, and so on in our
message, which would have helped.

And to be really honest, if we were dead-set on cutting RPG systems, we could have cut much, much deeper.

[/quote]

http://social.biowar...ex/7992640&lf=8

[DariusKalera]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Business 101. The Customer is ALWAYS right. The customer might not be able to clearly articulate what he or she wants all the time but the CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT.

If you deliberately take a dump on your customers (which IMO DA2 did), then you won't be in business long. In a contest between what the Devs want and what the Customers want, the Customers should always win if you expect to stay in business.

Bottom line.

-Polaris

The customer is NOT always right - that saying is just something that applies to, I expect, people involved in customer relations and is a matter of general good practice. You can and should try to keep customers happy, but I recently dealt with a "customer" (an author) who claimed that the line spacing in her manuscript was true 1.15 line spacing and demanded that I make yet another change to the galley proof. Her manuscript did NOT have true 1.15 line spacing, which I proved unequivocally. So guess what? I was right, and the customer was NOT right. She also backed down after I proved it.

With a game, you're buying a product that a bunch of developers created. They had vision of a specific story, a specific place and specific characters. A person who buys that game has a right to their opinion about it (good or bad) and a right to give feedback. We get to make suggestions, and the devs do listen, but we are NOT always right about everything.

Van Gogh certainly never listened to his "customers" (art collectors) and followed his own vision, which resulted in him being poor and largely ignored during his lifetime. People back then thought his paintings were garbage. After he died? People thought he was a bloody genius, and his works have sold for millions and millions of dollars. So tell me which "customers" were right: the ones who despised him and left him impoverished or the people who now think his paintings are brilliant?

Well, from the first example that you give about the author, it seems like you are more the customer than her since SHE is trying to YOU to accept something.  Since the manuscript was not something that you wanted, you did not want to have anything to do with it until it met your guidelines on what you thought the product should be.

As for Van Gogh, if he had listened to his "customers" he might have not been poor and ignored.  However, unless I misread something about Van Gogh, he did his paintings for himself, and not specifically for others.  Hence, he did need to please any one other than himself with his works.  Now, if he was actually trying to sell them, then he would have been painting something that sold to insure that his customers were happy with the product.  He more than likely would careless what someone int he future thought about his work.

I would agree that customers are not ALWAYS right, but when you are trying to sell to them, you need to look at what does actually sell.  DA:O sells, DA2 does not, at least, not to the extent of its predecessor.

[Bryy_Miller]

harkness72 wrote...
But how would I be able to give feedback without first buying and testing the product?

Easy. You don't buy it.

Modifié par Bryy_Miller, 11 août 2011 - 12:24 .

[Gunderic]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

harkness72 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Wait, so you want us to not base our development decisions on what people actually are seen to do in game?

I do want you to base your design on that.

And if you're going to listen to the gameplay behaviour, why did we get paraphrases?  Your testing showed that players would tend to skip the spoken dialogue if it was repeating something they'd already read.  So that clearly demonstrates that the spoken line - with the voices and cinematics all together - weren't that important to players.

And yet this somehow caused you folks to remove a core piece of player agency (choosing dialogue) in order to change player behaviour.

I don't get it.

And neither do they. I beleieve they're keeping DAII style for DAIII. So I won't be able to break off a romance if I want to, or kiss my LI whenever I want, or ask Leliana to tell me a story, or ask Alistair about the Wardens, or even invite someone to bed.

I get your frustration, but in all honesty, you still had party dialogue in their "base".

Gunderic wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

harkness72 wrote...
 all we do is give feeback, it's a lie. We also spend hard earned money on your products, and if we didn't, there wouldn't be any products to buy. 

Buying the product is feedback.

This is a bit misleading. Buying a product isn't *just* feedback. It's also a return of investments. We wouldn't be seeing any games by 'just providing feedback'.

Okay, but what does that return of investments SAY?

... EA has our money?

They're ripping her off! And then they're going to rip me off! Oh my Gooooooood!! 

Modifié par Gunderic, 11 août 2011 - 12:34 .