15 réponses à ce sujet

[benzod]

I'm playing through a fully updated and patched NWN2.  I purchased the game when MOB came with it and have tried a few times to work my way through but this is the first time I've been able to make myself get all the way to the end.  I'm at the last area, making my way to the King.  The problems I've been having through out the game are seriously coming to a head here.  The AI, even though I've painstakingly customized each one, is very nearly worthless.  Even though set to defend defend master and guard distance near for the entire party, they will run off to attack creatures across the room, setting off traps and splitting up the party while my main is getting his **** handed to him two feet away or there are monsters RIGHT THERE.  It wouldn't be so bad but this is an area without resting and resources are slim.  I look to Zhaeve to heal some of the party and she has three spells left for no reason I can tell.  I've given everyone in the party stacks of healing potions and turned on item use but they don't use them until after combat, if at all.

The second serious problem is the controls/camera.  I use the character view because it's the least terrrible but it really is very bad as well.  I turn the camera with the left mouse button but most of the time it doesn't register until I click and drag at least 2 - 3 times.  Sometimes the camera sees through walls and other obstructions but sometimes it doesn't.

This really makes me mad because NWN was like this too, but somehow the AI seems much worse than even NWN.   I told myself that this would most likely be the case and I shouldn't waste my money but I really wanted this to be good.  Unfortunately I'm disappointed again.  I doubt I'll make it to MOB.

[MetalGhost]

I agree that the party AI is absolutely terrible. There are various AI packs that are supposed to help, but even with those it was only minimally improved. Best thing to do is just put everyone in puppet mode and micromanage. Which is probably the least fun thing ever. So yeah.

[painofdungeoneternal]

Actually the AI is better in NWN2, they just really did not give you much of a party in NWN1. The same package used by the community for NWN1 ended up in NWN2. It really helps to get the TonyK version which provides the proper 2da files to configure it, and more options on the character sheet. However NWN2 is just having the NPC do far more complex things, so it seems much worse.

Regardless of anything else, AI is only as smart as the guy who set it up, and even if that guy is a genius, you are going to get into situations that they never thought of. It's not thinking, it's doing a lot of "if this happens" then do this. With enough scripting it's passable, but it's not going to be able to deal with new situations. Lately some have even come up with custom AI scripts on a per character basis. You are never going to have AI that works as good as puppet mode, and that is unrealistic as a goal, right now it really depends on your standards.

What is needed is not AI, but better controls so you can issue orders, and so the characters can work together better. ( like baldurs gate had )

There is a wiki page which goes over how to fix up the camera and controls ( there are options up the wazoo, but it's always going to a bit clunky i'm afraid ) Here is a thread with some solutions http://social.biowar...2/index/5508773

Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 10 août 2011 - 09:55 .

[I_Raps]

p.s The atrocious AI is exactly what the computer is using to hand your main PC his ****.  Something to ponder.

Modifié par I_Raps, 11 août 2011 - 12:26 .

[foil-]

Gotta say, I love, looove, love the NWN2 camera. I had been away from the game for a while and it was a shock again at first, but once you get use to it, it allows so much more flexibility and control. But ya, the solid wall non transparency thing is still a pain in the butt.

As for AI, I found tonys AI worked wonders. I'm not sure its up to Dragon Age excellence (which I don't use anyway, just heard word of mouth), but with a little bit of micromanaging you can tightly control the use of potions, magic items, weapons, etc. I think that's why I didn't use Dragon Age AI. It seemed to be an all or nothing feature. TonyK adds a lot of nuance to how the characters will react in situations. And the "V" key to issue commands during battle is essential.

[Dorateen]

Puppet Mode is a companion behavior mode available for advanced players who do not want their companions to engage in combat or use items or spells on their own

Harumph!

[-Semper-]

benzod wrote...

I use the character view because it's the least terrrible

...not. just use exploration or strategy mode without character snapping. the character view is horrible and was only there to please the cod audience!

benzod wrote...

the AI seems much worse than even NWN

yeah, for sure  those henchmen without control wasting all the spells on trash. puppet mode is your friend. dunno how someone even tries to play nwn2 in another control scheme.

Modifié par -Semper-, 11 août 2011 - 03:48 .

[kamal_]

Tldr summary: everything was horrible in nwn1, so I bought nwn2 and played all the way to the endboss, and it was horrible.

[M. Rieder]

I_Raps wrote...

p.s The atrocious AI is exactly what the computer is using to hand your main PC his ****.  Something to ponder.

Regarding the AI.  Yeah, especially with casters it is unpredictable.  I manage all my non-tanks.  I usually let the computer handle the tanks, but not in difficult situations.  I like to keep my party size small and more manageable. 

The other option is to fill your party with half-orc, then the stupid behavior makes sense.

[elugreymantle]

I figured out early on in my 4+ year relationship with playing NWN2 on and off to go puppet mode and micromanage/hyper-pause constantly. Using Tony K's AI 2.2 which unfortunately hasn't been touched since 2009 I think. His AI mod does make enemies act much more intelligently. I use puppet mode with peaceful follow on, otherwise my characters don't so much as breath without my instruction. Even then, the game engine still causes them to move weirdly, unpredictably from time to time, and to constantly get stuck next to/behind/in between allies and enemies and unable to move or attack the enemy right in front of them until I move them a fraction of an inch manually. This to me is the single most irritating bug in all of nwn2.

Modifié par elugreymantle, 26 septembre 2011 - 03:37 .

[The Fred]

Yeah, OK, the AI kind of sucks. TonyK's AI is widely regarded as a Good Option.

That said, what party AI have you experienced that was actually good? I can't think of many, because most PC games just aren't rigged up to run groundbreaking realism in their AI. The people who are spending money on good AI are not spending it on games, they're spending it on making good AI.

As mentioned, the AI as used by the party is the same as is used by the enemy. If it sucks, it should make the one character you control super-useful, relatively speaking, and thus help you win every balanced battle (obviously though battles are not balanced, for the very reason that people are better than the game, by and large).

The AI is better than NWN1's, though; that's why I always took someone like Daelen for whom the AI only has to ask "who do I hit with my super-massive double axe now?" rather than Boddyknock who has to decide which melee enemy to run up to and start casting ranged spells in front of. You probably just don't notice it so much, because you only have one or two henchmen at most and you can't take control of them.

Just pause and do everything yourself. It can be a tad tedious, but hey, people wanted party control. You can't have your cake and not have your cake.

[dunniteowl]

Actually, I remember Megatraveller's Game AI, both for opponents and Non Player Characters as your Team was pretty damn good. If you had inferior armoring or were less strong the AI almost always directed those characters to immediately hide behind obstacles during a firefight. The most heavily armored or powerful weapon characters would move up and fire. It was actually pretty awesome to watch, considering the game was made in 1990.

I especially loved that the encounters sometimes led to morale checks and as you killed off a leader of some sort, the underlings sometimes scattered and ran away. Other times, when available, they'd call in reinforcements. It was a very cool (though at times quite frustrating) AI system for it's day. Even better in some ways than the characters in Modern Warfare FPSs.

So, there is a stand out here and there, but by and large, AI (or, as I prefer to call it: Simulated (Personality) Traits Systems) are pretty poorly done on the whole. For as frustrating as NWN2s can be, there are several ways to play the characters (in terms of how they can be functionally managed in game) that can ameliorate the issues, but I have found that peaceful follow with occasional paused and issued commands is more enjoyable on the whole than letting the parameters run on their own unchecked and even less enjoyable than puppet mode all the time.

Sorry, I was originally responding to the apparently rhetorical question from "The Fred" :
That said, what party AI have you experienced that was actually good?

Then I stumbled back to NWN2. [hic]

[M. Rieder]

I remember the party AI from the Gold Box Pool of Radiance in which Skullcrusher would inevitably charge forward and generally end up getting *his* skull crushed.

[dunniteowl]

Yeah, but as he was rescued from being a prisoner of hobgoblins for doing that (IIRC) he acted wholly within character. Not like Khelgar and Neeshka, who apparently believe they have this magical inability to really die, conferred upon them by the Gods and so they rush in where angels fear to tread. That's not in character, that's a character flaw. Non Player Characters are not allowed to meta-game.

[M. Rieder]

dunniteowl wrote...

Yeah, but as he was rescued from being a prisoner of hobgoblins for doing that (IIRC) he acted wholly within character. Not like Khelgar and Neeshka, who apparently believe they have this magical inability to really die, conferred upon them by the Gods ...

Well, the fact that after every battle in which they are killed, they magically return to life as long as the PC survives and there are not any enemies too close by, I would say this belief is well-founded! 

Good point on scullcrusher.  What was his int anyway?  6?  


....and yes, I believe he was rescued from hobgoblins...