256 réponses à ce sujet

[Teddie Sage]

Final Fantasy 12. Worst gameplay ever. It killed the game.

[Haplose]

Bad King wrote...
I thought that the combat experience was a vast improvement in Oblivion where you could attack, block (voluntarily), perform dodge rolls, power attack, dissarm etc. your opponent. Combat in Morrowind consisted mainly of repeatedly using your most powerful attack- there was less room for tactics.

And yeah, while there were less skills in Oblivion, each one did have more depth. In Oblivion you earned a skill perk for every 25 level a skill rose- take acrobatics for example. As well as increasing jumping height, increasing your acrobatics skill would also grant you the following perks at certain levels:

Level 25 perk: You can now attack in mid air.
Level 50 perk: You can now do a rolling dodge.
Level 75 perk: You can now jump with a smaller loss of fatigue.
Level 100 perk: You can now bounce on the surface of water.

Meanwhile, in Morrowind increasing acrobatics only increased your jumping height and didn't grant any additional effects. The same can be said of almost any other skill in Oblivion- Block, marksman, sneak etc.

Okay, you have a point. Still, I cannot forgive the horrible implementation of level scaling and getting weaker by using your class skills (as you level faster and get less attribut points per level.. and enemies always level with you). So IMO Morrowind's mechanics were still much better. Also combat... maybe more varied.. but still felt very artificial.

[Rockworm503]

Ringo12 wrote...

Rockworm503 wrote...
I finally installed 1 and 2 after finding my copies.  Got all excited to see what the fuss is about how the first 2 games are so superior.  Started it up and instantly hated it.  Boring turn based with no direction whatsoever.  I get to the first town or whatever and I have no idea what I'm doing.  I lose patience and uinstall never looking back.
Whatever you have against Fallout 3 at least its playable.

Fallout 1 and 2 are just fine and perfectly playable. Have to love Gog.com. You not giving the game time and actually idk learning the mechanics and controls is not our problem or a good reason for hating two fantastic rpg's.

And you not liking the game mechanics of 3 is not our problem or a good reason to hate a fantastic RPG.

My point is I could find no enjoyment in 1 and 2 and you could yet their considered 2 of the best games ever made.  You find no enjoyment in 3 and everyone agrees with you.  Some of us would never have looked twice at Fallout if it weren't for 3.

[Bad King]

Haplose wrote...

Bad King wrote...
I thought that the combat experience was a vast improvement in Oblivion where you could attack, block (voluntarily), perform dodge rolls, power attack, dissarm etc. your opponent. Combat in Morrowind consisted mainly of repeatedly using your most powerful attack- there was less room for tactics.

And yeah, while there were less skills in Oblivion, each one did have more depth. In Oblivion you earned a skill perk for every 25 level a skill rose- take acrobatics for example. As well as increasing jumping height, increasing your acrobatics skill would also grant you the following perks at certain levels:

Level 25 perk: You can now attack in mid air.
Level 50 perk: You can now do a rolling dodge.
Level 75 perk: You can now jump with a smaller loss of fatigue.
Level 100 perk: You can now bounce on the surface of water.

Meanwhile, in Morrowind increasing acrobatics only increased your jumping height and didn't grant any additional effects. The same can be said of almost any other skill in Oblivion- Block, marksman, sneak etc.

Okay, you have a point. Still, I cannot forgive the horrible implementation of level scaling and getting weaker by using your class skills (as you level faster and get less attribut points per level.. and enemies always level with you). So IMO Morrowind's mechanics were still much better. Also combat... maybe more varied.. but still felt very artificial.

Yeah I wasn't a fan of Oblivion's level scaling either (I preferred Fallout 3's level scaling mechanic), but while the combat was somewhat artificial in Oblivion, it was still a big improvement over Morrowind's combat IMO. Also, I thought stealth was better in Oblivion although this may be due to the fact that the stealth based sidemissions in Oblivion (the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood) were generally better than they were in Morrowind rather than there being any big improvements in the mechanics.

Modifié par Bad King, 12 août 2011 - 11:03 .

[Lord Phoebus]

lobi wrote...

Compared to the current crop of RPG 'lite' Fallout 3 is freaking brilliant.

I'd argue it's one of the prime examples of RPG 'lite' myself.

 
The DC wasteland is one of my favourite characters ever. Lord Phoebus should have tried speaking to people in the settlements like andale, republic of dave and following the notes and journals of people who travelled the wasteland.

 
Ah yes, the cannibals and the bad Monty Python government sketch; I wasn't impressed. If the voice acting and timing were a bit better in RoD, it might not have fallen so flat.

It wasn't all fetch quests for Moira.

No, not just Moira, let's see there was hunting for a Stratovarius, a Radio Dish, the Declaration of Independence, Lincoln memorabilia,  Nuka Cola memorabilia, etc.  Not to mention skill books and bobbleheads to improve your character if you were so inclined.  You can't argue that you didn't spend 90+% percent of your time in that game wandering through the wasteland and looting the wreckage of the prewar civilization.

Modifié par Lord Phoebus, 12 août 2011 - 11:34 .

[legion999]

lobi wrote...

Compared to the current crop of RPG 'lite' Fallout 3 is freaking brilliant. The DC wasteland is one of my favourite characters ever. Lord Phoebus should have tried speaking to people in the settlements like andale, republic of dave and following the notes and journals of people who travelled the wasteland. It wasn't all fetch quests for Moira.

Most of the game was a fetch quest of some kind or go here and do this.

[Get Magna Carter]

On Ps1
Kings Field (2?)-rumoured to get better if you made it through the early stages but I never did
Breath of fire 3- after 20 hours of tedium playing a kid too young to speak, running away from bad guys or not being allowed to continue unless I spoke to something hidden by bad camera angles I gave up
Master of Monsters-The sheer frustration of the "randomisation" which wasn't random meant that battles would be interrupted by regular periods in which no-one could hit each other
Blaze and Blade....
Shadow Madness - Americans try to imitate Final Fantasy...
Guardian's crusade....has to be the worst (I hope there's none worse)

more recently
Two worlds
Sacred 2
Risen

[SafetyShattered]

OP you really hate FF don't you?

Mine are:
Two Worlds
Gothic 4
Last Remnant

[marshalleck]

Jade Empire
Mass Effect 2

[marshalleck]

legion999 wrote...

lobi wrote...

Compared to the current crop of RPG 'lite' Fallout 3 is freaking brilliant. The DC wasteland is one of my favourite characters ever. Lord Phoebus should have tried speaking to people in the settlements like andale, republic of dave and following the notes and journals of people who travelled the wasteland. It wasn't all fetch quests for Moira.

Most of the game was a fetch quest of some kind or go here and do this.

Oh jesus christ, if you consider "go to location and do something" a fetch quest, then every quest in the history of forever is a fetch quest. Get over yourself.

[Chromie]

marshalleck wrote...

legion999 wrote...

lobi wrote...

Compared to the current crop of RPG 'lite' Fallout 3 is freaking brilliant. The DC wasteland is one of my favourite characters ever. Lord Phoebus should have tried speaking to people in the settlements like andale, republic of dave and following the notes and journals of people who travelled the wasteland. It wasn't all fetch quests for Moira.

Most of the game was a fetch quest of some kind or go here and do this.

Oh jesus christ, if you consider "go to location and do something" a fetch quest, then every quest in the history of forever is a fetch quest. Get over yourself.

Fallout 3 was terrible for reasons I have already said on page 4. The game is much more shooter than rpg. Most of the game is a fetch quests. I can't remember many but there were maybe a handleful of quests that weren't about obtaining some damn item. Bloodlines was one.

Modifié par Ringo12, 14 août 2011 - 06:20 .

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Ringo12 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

legion999 wrote...

lobi wrote...

Compared to the current crop of RPG 'lite' Fallout 3 is freaking brilliant. The DC wasteland is one of my favourite characters ever. Lord Phoebus should have tried speaking to people in the settlements like andale, republic of dave and following the notes and journals of people who travelled the wasteland. It wasn't all fetch quests for Moira.

Most of the game was a fetch quest of some kind or go here and do this.

Oh jesus christ, if you consider "go to location and do something" a fetch quest, then every quest in the history of forever is a fetch quest. Get over yourself.

Fallout 3 was terrible for reasons I have already said on page 4. The game is much more shooter than rpg. Most of the game is a fetch quests. I can't remember many but there were maybe a handleful of quests that weren't about obtaining some damn item. Bloodlines was one.

Fetch quests aren't too bad. It depends on how they sprinkle it with creativity. When you come down to it, the overwhelming majority of quests in RPGs are structured as fetch quests (go to x, get y). There aren't many RPGs that allow outright freedom and/or non-linearity in what you do.

For example, you are sent by quest giver x to retrieve item y from location z. Quest giver x seems like a decent person and will reward you with gold, teh loots, yadda yadda yadda.

What the dude doesn't tell you is that item y is actually a family heirloom from the house of an empoverished noble family who are selling all of their material possessions in order to meet their debts. You realise that quest giver x is actually one of the debtors who actually wants to steal take the heirloom so that he could claim he's been wronged by the family and thus, attempt to take the rest of their fortune through a corrupt and convoluted judicial system.

Then, your character is given a variety of ways to learn about all of this (ambient dialogs, notes, rumours from other NPCs, etc) so some characters are given more details than others, as well as multiple ways to resolve the situation: sneak in, take the heirloom by force, convince the family to give it up, or even try to help them out of it through paying their debts, or by tricking quest giver x. Then, add in appropriate dialogs that allow the player to roleplay the character (skill checks, personality and content dialog options, etc). And so on and so on.

If it's written and designed well, you've got a memorable side story.

But at the heart of it, it's still a fetch quest. Go to x, get y, return to z.

I don't think the quests of Fallout 3 themselves were too bad. The problem was that they were inconsistent in quality (some really good and some really bad) and that there were too few of them. Combined with the inherent flaws of the engine, or at least the implementation of the engine (bugs, crap animations, dodgy AI, weird collision detection, clunky combat systems, etc) as well as neutered character system, really simple writing and the inability to create a cohesive and believable gameworld (essential in a game that takes itself seriously), Fallout 3 fell short of the originals, at least to me.

Well, it's not like the originals took advantage of the turn based combat, having one of the most basic and as such, least tactically satisfying implementations of it, so it's not like I didn't have my problems with them. Still, I enjoyed 1/2 much more, with 2 being my favourite RPG of all time.

Not a bad game, and likely a deserving 2008 GOTY. But yeah.

Arcania is still immovable as the worst RPG I ever played.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 14 août 2011 - 09:33 .

[SOLID_EVEREST]

@Rockworm

I'd have to agree that just looking at the game from one perspective is a bad idea, but Fallout: 1/2 is superior to 3 in more ways that just game mechanics. Fallout: 3 is hardly even an RPG. If Fallout: 3 declared itself a shooter, then you wouldn't really have many people saying it's a bad game. Fallout: 3 is at most a terrible Fallout game and a bad RPG. The dialogue and voice acting is just laughable, and there is almost no moral ambiguity. If it wasn't for Bethesda, Troika could've bought the Fallout license since they were one of the companies bidding for it. I just wish that Obsidan gained the license since they know exactly what Fallout is. I would also have to disagree that Fallout gave some people the notion to look back at the original series, look up No Mutants Allowed.

Modifié par SOLID_EVEREST, 14 août 2011 - 08:33 .

[SOLID_EVEREST]

mrcrusty wrote...

Ringo12 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

legion999 wrote...

lobi wrote...

Compared to the current crop of RPG 'lite' Fallout 3 is freaking brilliant. The DC wasteland is one of my favourite characters ever. Lord Phoebus should have tried speaking to people in the settlements like andale, republic of dave and following the notes and journals of people who travelled the wasteland. It wasn't all fetch quests for Moira.

Most of the game was a fetch quest of some kind or go here and do this.

Oh jesus christ, if you consider "go to location and do something" a fetch quest, then every quest in the history of forever is a fetch quest. Get over yourself.

Fallout 3 was terrible for reasons I have already said on page 4. The game is much more shooter than rpg. Most of the game is a fetch quests. I can't remember many but there were maybe a handleful of quests that weren't about obtaining some damn item. Bloodlines was one.

Fetch quests aren't too bad. It depends on how they sprinkle it with creativity. When you come down to it, the overwhelming majority of quests in RPGs are structured as fetch quests (go to x, get y). There aren't many RPGs that allow outright freedom and/or non-linearity in what you do.

For example, you are sent by quest giver x to retrieve item y from location z. Quest giver x seems like a decent person and will reward you with gold, teh loots, yadda yadda yadda.

What the dude doesn't tell you is that item y is actually a family heirloom from the house of an empoverished noble family who are selling all of their material possessions in order to meet their debts. You realise that quest giver x is actually one of the debtors who actually wants to steal take the heirloom so that he could claim he's been wronged by the family and this, attempt to take the rest of their fortune through a corrupt and convoluted judicial system.

Then, your character is given a variety of ways to learn about all of this (ambient dialogs, notes, rumours from other NPCs, etc) so some characters are given more details than others, as well as multiple ways to resolve the situation: sneak in, take the heirloom by force, convince the family to give it up, or even try to help them out of it through paying their debts, or by tricking quest giver x. Then, add in appropriate dialogs that allow the player to roleplay the character (skill checks, personality and content dialog options, etc). And so on and so on.

If it's written and designed well, you've got a memorable side story.

But at the heart of it, it's still a fetch quest. Go to x, collect y, return to z.

Fallout: New Vegas did this perfectly with the Return to Sender quest (if I remember that was the correct name). You got to meet one of the best voiced character, Chief Hanlon, and see his tragic story unfold. That game really understood the Fallout world, well at least the Fallout: 2 world. If the game mechanics were better, it would be my favorite RPG instead of just number 2. I wish Van Buren would've come out .

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

I actually thought the opposite. It was one of the most barebones and basic implementations of a fetch quest I've ever seen, which was redeemed by having one of the best endings to a questline I've ever seen. But the actual "fetch" part of the quest was boring. Really, who thought the "go to x Ranger Stations" part was fun? It was much better if you played it over time like a slow burn rather than actually doing the quest once you get it.

I think as far as New Vegas goes, the best "fetch quest" was the mid game main story arc.

You're "fetching" alliances for your faction, but it's so open ended in how you deal with it. Each faction has multiple quests with multiple resolutions and almost all of them interconnect with different consequences depending on what you do and how you do it. It allows you to really play with the story like a sandbox.

As an aside, I felt like Vault 11 was the moment when I realised that New Vegas "got it".

Modifié par mrcrusty, 14 août 2011 - 10:59 .

[KLUME777]

mrcrusty wrote...

I actually thought the opposite. It was one of the most barebones and basic implementations of a fetch quest I've ever seen, which was redeemed by having one of the best endings to a questline I've ever seen. But the actual "fetch" part of the quest was boring. Really, who thought the "go to x Ranger Stations" part was fun? It was much better if you played it over time like a slow burn rather than actually doing the quest once you get it.

I think as far as New Vegas goes, the best "fetch quest" was the mid game main story arc.

You're "fetching" alliances for your faction, but it's so open ended in how you deal with it. Each faction has multiple quests with multiple resolutions and almost all of them interconnect with different consequences depending on what you do and how you do it. It allows you to really play with the story like a sandbox.

As an aside, I felt like Vault 11 was the moment when I realised that New Vegas "got it".

I didn't think it was too bad. If you did it over time, like i did, it can be a good reason to explore different areas of the map that you wouldn't go to with just the main story. I think that was its reason, to make noobs go to far out places. I had a friend that never went to mount Charleston or Jacobstown on his first playthrough(!!), but did on his second because of that quest.

[Turnip Root]

Lol, someone brought up Shadow Madness. That game was SUCH crap, good choice.

King's Field was a great game actually and ahead of it's time. Dying by walking in water makes sense since you're a knight wearing armor so obviously you would sink. Also, only the beginning of the game has you near water so it hardly matters later on.

[legion999]

mrcrusty wrote...

Ringo12 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

legion999 wrote...

lobi wrote...

Compared to the current crop of RPG 'lite' Fallout 3 is freaking brilliant. The DC wasteland is one of my favourite characters ever. Lord Phoebus should have tried speaking to people in the settlements like andale, republic of dave and following the notes and journals of people who travelled the wasteland. It wasn't all fetch quests for Moira.

Most of the game was a fetch quest of some kind or go here and do this.

Oh jesus christ, if you consider "go to location and do something" a fetch quest, then every quest in the history of forever is a fetch quest. Get over yourself.

Fallout 3 was terrible for reasons I have already said on page 4. The game is much more shooter than rpg. Most of the game is a fetch quests. I can't remember many but there were maybe a handleful of quests that weren't about obtaining some damn item. Bloodlines was one.

Fetch quests aren't too bad. It depends on how they sprinkle it with creativity. When you come down to it, the overwhelming majority of quests in RPGs are structured as fetch quests (go to x, get y). There aren't many RPGs that allow outright freedom and/or non-linearity in what you do.

For example, you are sent by quest giver x to retrieve item y from location z. Quest giver x seems like a decent person and will reward you with gold, teh loots, yadda yadda yadda.

What the dude doesn't tell you is that item y is actually a family heirloom from the house of an empoverished noble family who are selling all of their material possessions in order to meet their debts. You realise that quest giver x is actually one of the debtors who actually wants to steal take the heirloom so that he could claim he's been wronged by the family and thus, attempt to take the rest of their fortune through a corrupt and convoluted judicial system.

Then, your character is given a variety of ways to learn about all of this (ambient dialogs, notes, rumours from other NPCs, etc) so some characters are given more details than others, as well as multiple ways to resolve the situation: sneak in, take the heirloom by force, convince the family to give it up, or even try to help them out of it through paying their debts, or by tricking quest giver x. Then, add in appropriate dialogs that allow the player to roleplay the character (skill checks, personality and content dialog options, etc). And so on and so on.

If it's written and designed well, you've got a memorable side story.

But at the heart of it, it's still a fetch quest. Go to x, get y, return to z.

I don't think the quests of Fallout 3 themselves were too bad. The problem was that they were inconsistent in quality (some really good and some really bad) and that there were too few of them. Combined with the inherent flaws of the engine, or at least the implementation of the engine (bugs, crap animations, dod6gy AI, weird collision detection, clunky combat systems, etc) as well as neutered character system, really simple writing and the inability to create a cohesive and believable gameworld (essential in a game that takes itself seriously), Fallout 3 fell short of the originals, at least to me.

Well, it's not like the originals took advantage of the turn based combat, having one of the most basic and as such, least tactically satisfying implementations of it, so it's not like I didn't have my problems with them. Still, I enjoyed 1/2 much more, with 2 being my favourite RPG of all time.

Not a bad game, and likely a deserving 2008 GOTY. But yeah.

Arcania is still immovable as the worst RPG I ever played.

I didn't mind the fetch quests , the "go here and do that comment was stupid", just a lot of the game was a fetch quest of some sort. The main thing I dislike about Fallout 3 was the plot but apart from that it was a decent game. Now however I have New Vegas which has a better story so I'm satisfied.

[legion999]

Fallout: New Vegas did this perfectly with the Return to Sender quest (if I remember that was the correct name). You got to meet one of the best voiced character, Chief Hanlon, and see his tragic story unfold. That game really understood the Fallout world, well at least the Fallout: 2 world. If the game mechanics were better, it would be my favorite RPG instead of just number 2. I wish Van Buren would've come out .[/quote]

Sigh Caen was the worst thing that happened to Interplay.

[legion999]

mrcrusty wrote...

I actually thought the opposite. It was one of the most barebones and basic implementations of a fetch quest I've ever seen, which was redeemed by having one of the best endings to a questline I've ever seen. But the actual "fetch" part of the quest was boring. Really, who thought the "go to x Ranger Stations" part was fun? It was much better if you played it over time like a slow burn rather than actually doing the quest once you get it.

I think as far as New Vegas goes, the best "fetch quest" was the mid game main story arc.

You're "fetching" alliances for your faction, but it's so open ended in how you deal with it. Each faction has multiple quests with multiple resolutions and almost all of them interconnect with different consequences depending on what you do and how you do it. It allows you to really play with the story like a sandbox.

As an aside, I felt like Vault 11 was the moment when I realised that New Vegas "got it".

Vault 11 was the best Vault in New Vegas. It was quite chilling when you got the final holotapes.

[Ghost Lightning]

Fable 3 *pukes*

[MorrigansLove]

Two Worlds 2 is just horrible. Just... horrible. *crys*

[Scudman_Slayer]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

The title speaks for itself. I made this thread because I haven't seen this one up yet.

I'll give mine:

Final Fantasy XIII

OMG you hate final fantasy XIII too?!

[Nerdage]

Oblivion for its level scaling, which is the only reason I haven't been able to bring myself to replay it, it's a good game otherwise... shame.

Icewind Dale because I couldn't give an example of one memorable character or plot point in either game, my only lingering memory of it was finding ways to exploit the character import to duplicate a book that grants XP.